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Trading With Attitude
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Trading With Attitude

  #21 (permalink)
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AttitudeTrader View Post

I think the phrase "making the turn" is reminder that it's not just about an edge. I don't think that phrase means that "they found an edge." I think it means that they finally developed/acquired the appropriate attitude(s) to allow themselves to capitalize. An edge is a required component, but not the key.

I believe an edge, and more importantly, the ability to execute it, will only come as a result of developing the appropriate attitudes toward trading - not the other way around. And I believe that success in trading or any other pursuit/endeavor comes down to attitude.


-AT


I would agree with you that it's not just about the edge, it's obvious from most of the journals and other related posts that psychology (which I think you refer to as attitude) is critically important. But from my limited experience (also mostly garnered by posts on futures.io (formerly BMT)) that just as critical for success is having an edge, for without it you are like the customer that goes to a casino (who have an expectancy of fractionally below 50/50 in most of the games), since commissions and operating expenses will send you to ruin (over time) even if you are fortunate enough to have a 50/50 (coin flip) expectancy. To me at least both are equally necessary. Cheers!

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  #22 (permalink)
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AttitudeTrader View Post

I understand if you don't agree. And I hope you understand that I started this thread to share my opinions (as well as my journey) with others who are open to them and would like to discuss them in more depth - not as a forum to debate the validity of them.

-AT

AT,

I really appreciate the many references to study material about mindset and attitude you have provided in this thread. I loved the Longoria video and have studied some of Byrne's concepts in The Secret. I find I can always learn more and every tip helps me in my journey. Thank you for providing it.

Looks like to me you are on the proper journey for you. You have demonstrated you can follow a process for long periods of time. You are now trying to define exactly what that process may be(trading methodology or plan). Mastering the psychology part of trading has been the most difficult thing by far for me. If you break down trading into 3 sub parts; Psychology, Edge, Money Management.............. Psychology issues will screw with your money management and edge to no avail and render them useless... So it looks like to me you have the "mastering" in the correct order.. Psychology being first.. (I wish I would have tackled it in that order).

All the best and continued success....

Wolf

You might find this book of value as you continue your journey on the power of the mind.. Although written many years ago, it is similar in concept to some of Byrne's teachings from a different perspective.

The Power of Your Subconscious Mind: Dr. Joseph Murphy Ph.D.: 9781434440822: Amazon.com: Books

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  #23 (permalink)
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AttitudeTrader View Post
I think the phrase "making the turn" is reminder that it's not just about an edge. I don't think that phrase means that "they found an edge." I think it means that they finally developed/acquired the appropriate attitude(s) to allow themselves to capitalize. An edge is a required component, but not the key.

I believe an edge, and more importantly, the ability to execute it, will only come as a result of developing the appropriate attitudes toward trading - not the other way around. And I believe that success in trading or any other pursuit/endeavor comes down to attitude.

I understand if you don't agree. And I hope you understand that I started this thread to share my opinions (as well as my journey) with others who are open to them and would like to discuss them in more depth - not as a forum to debate the validity of them.

-AT

I agree with you.

I believe you and I have a different definition of an :Edge"

Each of us has our own “Edge”. You should be able to define your “Edge” to your own satisfaction.

Having an “Edge ”can be articulated in all kinds of general ways: Along with a set up that has a positive expectancy, there are a raft of other things to be considered. Proper capitalization; Proper discipline; Proper trading plan; Consistency: Risk control; Position sizing; Portfolio makeup; Money management and so on.

You have to have all these things working for you. If you say that you have an edge but don’t have the discipline to trade it you don’t really have an “Edge”

By the way; I have started reading and following the exercises in “The Magic” I am grateful to you for pointing me in that direction.

DD

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  #24 (permalink)
Attitude is everything.
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Traderwolf View Post
AT,

I really appreciate the many references to study material about mindset and attitude you have provided in this thread...

...All the best and continued success....

Wolf

Thanks Wolf.


deaddog View Post
I agree with you...

...By the way; I have started reading and following the exercises in “The Magic” I am grateful to you for pointing me in that direction.

Thanks for clarifying - I appreciate it.

I hope you'll keep in touch and let me know what you think of the book after you've had some time with it, and whether you think it's making a difference for you.

-AT

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
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  #25 (permalink)
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Firstly, a compliment... It's only because your journey has been such a fascinating one (as you know I have followed this in multiple ways, none of which had anything to do with PRISM!) that I have raised my head above the virtual parapet here

A few points...

1. This issue of the importance of "an edge" seems best summarised by a phrase from philosophy / logic -- having an edge is a necessary but not sufficient condition. It's like having the right tool for the job but not the skill to use it.

2. I think your focus on attitude is open to misinterpretation. You are not (I assume) trying to perfect your attitude in the belief that this will generate consistent profitability (in the crudest sense this is the case where someone continues with unhealthy levels of positivity in the face of ever decreasing capital). What I think you are saying is that with the right attitude will come the way to develop a positive edge AND the mental strength to apply it consistently. It's not about the attitude in isolation, it's about what the attitude delivers.

3. I take your point about the stats at this particular point in your education, I'm pretty neutral on it though but I'm a geek. If you find that it is not possible to have a method that feels sufficiently formalised then you may have to learn to live with the discretion/flexibility required. One useful exercise can be to record your "confidence" when you open the trade (just from 1 to 5 or something) and then the outcome. If you find there is a correlation (ideally positive!) between confidence and profit then you will have a lot to be very pleased about.

I'll go back to enjoying the charts for another few weeks now.

L&W

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  #26 (permalink)
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Thank you


longandwrong View Post
Firstly, a compliment... It's only because your journey has been such a fascinating one (as you know I have followed this in multiple ways, none of which had anything to do with PRISM!) that I have raised my head above the virtual parapet here

Firstly, I’d like for you to know how much I appreciate you being here. I know that this is not your normal venue and that you might have been a bit reticent to join here, but I’m glad you did. And I’m honoured to have your first post on the forum!

longandwrong View Post
A few points...

1. Agreed.
2. Precisely.
3. I’ll see what I can do with these ideas.

longandwrong View Post
I'll go back to enjoying the charts for another few weeks now.

I was really hoping that you were coming here because you wanted to spend quality time with me, and not just to look at my big charts...

-AT

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
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Last edited by AttitudeTrader; July 15th, 2013 at 01:04 PM.
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  #27 (permalink)
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AttitudeTrader View Post

I don't think that it's news to anyone that there are plenty of people who have discovered an "edge" but still can't make money (e.g., analysts and peddlers of systems?). It's also not news to anyone that there are traders who have relatively mediocre edges by many standards, which can be learned for free in many cases, who are incredibly successful.
...
I think the phrase "making the turn" is reminder that it's not just about an edge. I don't think that phrase means that "they found an edge." I think it means that they finally developed/acquired the appropriate attitude(s) to allow themselves to capitalize. An edge is a required component, but not the key.

-AT

I haven't finished reading the rest of this thread yet, but I think there's something important here: the more successful traders have (at least) an OK edge, and a very good attitude. (If "attitude" means all the mental aspects of trading.)

Of course, if your edge is good, your attitude will tend to be better too. But they're still separate things.

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  #28 (permalink)
Attitude is everything.
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Trading for Monday, July 15

Today (as far as my actual trading goes), I didn’t try to do anything except work on identifying my “edge” and executing my entries. I didn’t worry about targets (they were hard), or drawdown or anything else.

But I think today was a fairly good example of “attitude” canceling out “edge” and/or the ability to read the context of the market today.

Many of you will recognize that I’m studying a fairly well-known, fairly straightforward approach to reading price action, with fairly straightforward rules.

But today, it wasn’t until the end of the session that I was able to see what the appropriate context was, and where my edges were for the day.

This certainly has to do with experience and needing time to learn the method, but the context today wasn’t that difficult to discern (see the red dashed trend lines on the chart). And with what I’ve already learned, and as much studying as I've done, it shouldn’t have been difficult even for me.

This had nothing to do with whether the edge(s) were apparent before the end of the session, because they were. And even after seeing things incorrectly at the beginning of the session, it should have been pretty easy to adjust and get on the right track – but I didn’t/couldn’t.

I couldn’t see what I needed to see.

And why couldn’t I see what I needed to see? I think it had everything to do with my attitude. It only took a couple of losing trades to put me into a negative mentality and a very microscopic view of price action. From there, even though I didn’t get crazy with position size or per-trade risk, I bounced between “fight mode” and “disappointment mode” for the rest of the session.

My thoughts slipped easily into a flow of things like, “Here we go again, another method that doesn’t work,” and “Great, all someone would have to do is take the opposite of my trades and they’d be rich today.”

This is what I’m talking about when I say that I think that attitude is so important. It doesn’t matter how apparent an edge may be to others, an inappropriate attitude can make that edge invisible to you. I'm not just talking about one's attitude during any particular trading session, but also one's attitude about success, self-worth, life, etc.

About the chart: Now that the context is clear, all of the text on the chart is basically “blah, blah, blah,” but I left it so I, and others, can see it and possibly learn from it. Again, the red dashed lines were what I should have been seeing from early on in the session.


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"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
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  #29 (permalink)
Attitude is everything.
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Vortex Meditation

I wanted to make a separate post for this today.

I’m starting to do something in addition to the book I discussed previously.

I’m a believer in the benefits of meditation, but I’ve always had a difficult time doing it. About a year ago I bought a meditation CD produced by a couple (Jerry & Esther Hicks**) that incorporates the mechanics of meditation (releasing thought, increasing breathing) along with some other things that are specific to their teachings.

I didn’t use it consistently though, or for (I think) a long enough time for it to “work” for me.

So, starting today I’m going to be using this meditation CD daily. It's called Getting into the Vortex Guided Meditations and User Guide and contains four 15-minute meditations (General Well-Being, Financial Well-Being, Physical Well-Being, and Relationships) that I’ll use in rotation. If you’re interested in it, there’s a book with CD version, and a PDF with digital recording (iTunes + MP3) version. I bought the book/CD for my mom and the PDF/digital one for myself.

I’m also going to keep a log of my usage and my experience with it. I'll probably post it here at some point.

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**I'll warn you in advance that their stuff is about as far "out there" as you're going to find, so it probably won't appeal to everyone.

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
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  #30 (permalink)
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AT,

Don't know if you're familiar with the works of Rick Hanson, Buddha's Brain: The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love, and Wisdom, Just One Thing: Developing a Buddha Brain One Simple Practice at a Time and the 3-cd set Meditations to Change Your Brain.

His Hardwiring Happiness: The New Brain Science of Contentment, Calm, and Confidence is due for release Oct, 2013. All good stuff, in my opinion.

Robert

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