That's what I was thinking, and that's one way to look at it. But from this perspective, CL is in fact returning to value, if we are considering value as value established last week (using all trading hours to more easily show today's activity so far) :
If you were to scroll further back and look at earlier this year, CL is trading in an area with previously established value and that's another perspective to look at (I just don't have that much data to look at right now so I can't see it at the moment).
So, if the VWAP is a consensus of Sunday's value so far, yes, we are rejecting a running measure of value, but the profile so far shows no agreement on any prices in particular as more or less fair, so CL seems to have searched above last week's fair prices, found few buyers, and quickly rejected those prices, and has returned to a more "comfortable" and fair area--in this perspective, it has returned to value, and is not moving away from it. 96.40 to 96.90 would be a reasonable range for it to find comfortable at this point.
Play a game...who can get the most memory usage out of NT before there PC crashes
P.S iv got white charts now
Im liking the clarity and it seem to be work for me so far today
" I will follow my rules, I will take my stops, I will be disciplined and i will work with the market....NOT AGAINST IT! Professional mind control is the key"
The following 2 users say Thank You to greenr for this post:
I considered buying into K period, but don't like to positioning of CL with ES.
Done, positive 81, and would be better if my computer were working right. I had started to wonder if reducing the resources required for the trading platform would fix the issue, and may be ready to find out by next week. I got the data to load finally in SC, and am going to try out the order system after 2:30pm on ES simluated.
AND, today is the first I have traded mimicking @Private Banker's charts and it kind of freaks me out a little...
" I will follow my rules, I will take my stops, I will be disciplined and i will work with the market....NOT AGAINST IT! Professional mind control is the key"
The following 3 users say Thank You to greenr for this post:
Broker: Advantage, Trading Technologies, OptionsCity, IQ Feed
Trading: CL, NG
Posts: 1,040 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 1,713 given,
3,847
received
Looks good! Only thing you may want to adjust is your initial balance doesn't appear to be set up correctly. For ES, it should be from 9:30AM - 10:30AM (A and B period).
The following user says Thank You to Private Banker for this post:
I am not trading ES, just watching it on a single chart, and today I threw the chart template that I made recently for CL onto it without making any adjustments, so the IB was from 9-9:30am. But thanks for looking out for me there.
Be careful until you have tried it for awhile. I got nearly everything to look the same after playing with it for 3 days, but today when I tried execution in sim, whole different story. I undertstand it, but did not realize how much there is to "customize" just to get it to function similar to NT.
Here are some examples;
The default chart trade setting has buy orders as green, sell orders as red. I would have thought that was what I wanted. But entered a long trade and the brackets on boths sides of it were the same color, green (BUY limit + BUY stop). Then, my entry price was also green, but would turn red if it went negative. It may sound trivial, but it is enough to cause visual discomfort of not being completely sure of everything. And, while it allows me to change the colors, I still have to choose a single color for BUY stops (as far as I can tell), so I can have STOPS be red, but if I wnat to enter on one have to be prepared for that visual.
The default sound is the same for ORDER PENDING, ORDER FILLED, ORDER CANCELLED, STOP FILLED, etc. The fact that the visuals show the trade has occured, or changed, or whatever, helps, but not knowing for sure does not feel good, even in sim. I was able to copy the sound files from NT into SC, but it is not possible to get every single action to sound the same in every situation, as SC wants to assign a single sound to certain actions. I can't recall which right now, but you will see.
When I changed from simulated to live, not to take a trade, but just to see if I knew how, my account number came up in the chart trade window. That part was easy enough. But then I could not figure out how to confirm my account balance, and discovered that the only way I could find was to add a "Chart Study" that just put a number on the chart. It was the correct amount, but did not even have a title associated with it. I am so used to NT showing daily info as default.
The P&L display was shown in points by default, and I have not tried to get it to currency yet.
You have to select a box to click/release/click to modify an order if you ant it to be the same as NT. Otherwise i makes you drag the order modification. And I have not yet learned how to turn off confirmation for every order entry or chnage, except that when I click the "X" on the order line it is immediate.
"CANCEL ALL" does not flatten you. "FLATTEN" does. The former only leaves your position with no stop loss or targets.
While none of that spells deal breaker, it was the most uncomfortable part of the change so far. I am sure you know that any little thing that causes additional stress, or questioning, or confusion, or doubt, is not a good thing when in a live trade. I will keep messing with it this week, but not ready to trade live even though I have the capability.
Let me save you some time. It took me a day to figure out how to turn off the confirmation.
To turn off the confirmation button click on the M on the chart trader. You also have to use this to save trade configurations. This would be the same as a ATM in NT. See screenshot.
To change points to profit go to the menu Chart --> Chart Settings then click on the advanced tab. See screenshot.
I was a little freaked out about the colors as well for the trades however, after a week of using it it actually makes more sense. I think you can customize these to whatever color you want.
Robert
nosce te ipsum
You make your own opportunities in life.
The following 3 users say Thank You to Silver Dragon for this post:
This also bothered me at first, coming from the NT world. Here is essentially the difference:
In NT, orders can be colored differently depending on whether they are entry orders, or exit orders.
In SC, each type of basic order (buy stop, sell stop, buy limit, sell limit) can be colored only one color, regardless of whether they are entry or exit orders; however, the position line can be colored different based on long/short, or based on profit/loss. Personally, I have a single line color whether I'm long or short.
It bothered me at first and it bothered me a lot. Then I got used to it, and I appreciated that a sell order is always red, and a buy order is always green. So if I'm short, I'll have a buy above my entry, and a buy below. Associating "red" with "loss" is fine, but also associating "red" with "sell" is very logical too.
It is displayed on the Trade->Trade Orders and Positions window. Be glad you have a broker that even shows the account balance, TT users for example, do not have access to this information on any platform
By the way, when you become a SC Spreadsheet guru (which I am not lol, but tomgilb is and has helped me), you can put cool things like this in your chart region data line, and have it automatically flatten you when conditions are met, etc:
I think Silver Dragon helped you with these already, and all are customizable.
This makes sense though, yes? Cancel cancels all working orders. Flatten closes all open positions, and cancels all working orders. If you had some positions on but wanted to redo your "ATM" strategy, you wouldn't want to have to cancel every order one-by-one; you'd want to be able to cancel them all, then put your new orders in. I do this a lot when I scale in, and want to redo my targets and stops, which NT does not allow you to do (assign an ATM strategy to an already-open order).
I agree 100% Gary. For me I spent a LOT of time in sim mode figuring out how to do what I wanted. SC's attached orders and overall trading system does much more than NT but it's also a bit more complex, so it's a bit of a tradeoff. But like everything else in this case, it's just a matter of familiarity. No need to rush it.
The following 2 users say Thank You to josh for this post:
By the way Gary, when it comes rollover time here's the basic procedure, using CLK to CLM rollover as an example.
1) Be sure you are disconnected from your data provider
2) Backup your data file in your data folder, just create a copy in case anything goes wrong
3) Edit->Adjust Data
4) Add/Subtract amount: let's say CLM settles +.30 higher than CLK. You will want to put 0.30 in the box, and click OK.
5) Exit SC
6) Copy the newly adjusted data file and rename the copy to fit the CLM parameters (including month letter, number, etc)
7) Restart SC
8) Change the symbol to the new symbol name on all your charts
9) Connect to your data provider
10) To be sure you have new data if it's already past rollover, right-click on a bar where you want to refresh data (the 18:00 bar on rollover day for example), and do a "Delete and Download Data"
Seems like a lot but it's a very flexible process that is quite fast once you do it a time or two, and the nice thing is you have complete control over the data, the range to back-adjust if you like, etc. You can even modify the volume info if you like.
There is also an automatic rollover process, but I have not used it as I don't trust it and prefer to know exactly what is being adjusted and at what times, and by how much.
The following 2 users say Thank You to josh for this post:
@Big Mike, this is definitely one way to go, and has the advantage that it's very hands-off, just download the data at rollover. But it has a couple of disadvantages:
1) When rollover occurs, you must re-download ALL data since it has all been back-adjusted, and therefore you overwrite all your old data, and since you can only get 120 days of tick data, you can never have more than 120 days of tick data for an IQFeed continuous contract. This is not an issue for some people, but some people like to compose volume charts (or profiles) that may span 6 months to a year, and need tick data for that period, not minute data.
2) IQFeed will control the rollover time and amount. For ES, it's fairly straightforward, but even then I like to roll a day later because the volume does not shift to the new contract until Friday, but IQFeed will roll on Wednesday evening. Also, if I want to customize the rollover (shifting one day -5.00 but another -4.75 for example) I can't do so in this situation. For a contract like CL, since there is no real rollover day defined, IQFeed may roll at a different time than some people like, as some people will prefer to stick with the old contract a day or two longer, and some may like to roll a little early.
The procedure in NT is very simple, and even for SC with all the customizations available, it does not take long (maybe 5 minutes to shift the data for my entire 4GB ES data file).
By the way, the above instructions and other methods for rolling over are outlined here at SC's web site.
SIM trading the pre-open. This is where the order colors get a little confusing. Bracketed orders also show before they trigger. Everything is there in the text though...
Looks like it will open in balance. Per Jim Dalton I have 5 trade options. I would prefer only one
Balance area rules starting with inside days:
1.Market may slightly extend the range in either direction, stays in balance. Patience is in order.
2.Market explores upside breakout and is met by aggressive sellers; prices fail to be accepted above the breakout. Fade the price probe failure—the potential target is for rotation to the opposite end of balance.
3.Market explores to the upside; higher prices receive the unexpected response and attract even more buyers. Higher prices are accepted, breakout is successful. Go with price acceptance in the direction of breakout.
4.Market explores downside breakout and is met by aggressive buyers; prices fail to be accepted below the breakout. Fade the price probe failure—the potential target is for rotation to the opposite end of balance.
5.Market explores to the downside; lower prices receive the unexpected response and attract even more sellers. Lower prices are accepted, breakout is successful. Go with price acceptance in the direction of breakout.
In yesterday's range, but trading in a range so far that accounts for about 10% of yesterday's volume, and above the larger March balance area and the all-important 58 area, which was the high 3 days in a row and just below the S&P cash all-time closing high. So, while we are in yesterday's range, contextually, ES is out of balance. Not as out of balance as if we opened above 65, but still, out of balance, IMO.
After the bad ISM news today, there was a bit of a bounce at the 58 for anyone willing to take the chance, but soon after, ES traded down to the 51-58 balance VPOC of 53.50 and found buyers. The logical target for the long here was 58.50, which was traded …
The following 2 users say Thank You to josh for this post:
I keep studying that long base of the A period, and cannot find a MP day type that supports my target with any real conviction.
It got to 62 and then back to 40... now 50. Who knows, but I am going to follow what I am studying. I printed and bound nearly 1000 pages of MP study information, sitting here on my desk. May as well go with it. No volume, did not return to my preferred low area, etc.
I would say that at this point in my walk down the market profile path, it has cost me more than it has made me. That in no way is preventing me from moving forward in it, nor has it lessened my interest. I have been down similar paths before. Learning something new always starts this way.
That was about as good of an entry as I could have gotten on the day. I am so quick to abandon them though. Learning to scalp took a lot of work, now learning not to is taking just as much.
And I would have normally tried that long entry at the bottom, but was waiting for price to take out the "poor low". It's like trading requires sloppy perfection.
I remember @Big Mike saying in a post or was it a webinar..... don't remember, anyways he was saying something similar; Unlearning scalping took a long time.
Robert
nosce te ipsum
You make your own opportunities in life.
The following user says Thank You to Silver Dragon for this post:
I would like to be a scalper when I enter a trade, but then something else the very next second.
There are so many psychological layers that formed over time as I learned to scalp. It amazes me day after day how hard it is to stay in a trade after I "feel" it is dead. That feeling was shaped over hundreds of thousands of dollars of experience, but it is not a feeling I still wish to possess.
You need to some how just keep the mentality of having a runner
Trade 2 contracts, have one at a set target of confluence to reduce risk and bank profits
Then just let your runner do its job
Once you have secured the trade and hedged risk
Relax and just let the market work things out for you
Your position will either start working out developing positive information in the trade
Or you get stoppe out and it didn't work
But you managed risk
The only way we can manage risk is with trade location and correct trade management
Once you have got the locations right and you manage risk correctly, you can look to start adding to you poisons as the develop
Most important thing is to try get a runner going and relax
Obviously depending on the market condition determines if it's a destination trade or not
" I will follow my rules, I will take my stops, I will be disciplined and i will work with the market....NOT AGAINST IT! Professional mind control is the key"
The following 5 users say Thank You to greenr for this post:
I think this is a reasonable place to be. I tried profiling, and abandoned it and came back to it probably 3 times (over the course of 2 years or so I think?) before I finally "got it" enough that it was actually, truly helpful. During the foggy times, it was sometimes more of a distraction and I would get pissed because it didn't "work" like it was supposed to. You just started learning this stuff a few weeks ago, and you can't learn this (or trading in general) from a book--we need time for observation first, then to developing some ideas about how it works such that our brain understands it without having to recall anything from what someone else has said on the subject. Maybe you'll wind up not using it in the traditional sense, but as you mentioned a couple of posts up, you have already benefited from a fuller understanding of the notion of value, even if you never look at a profile again. And to me, that's the value of all of this--coming up with ways of seeing things that make sense to you.
Gary, I'm sure you've read most if not all of MoM, but I'll quote it here.
Ok, all well and good, but when I reread this (during the 3rd read?), it was kind of an eye-opener for me:
To me, it's the f***ing holy grail of trading, because it goes to the heart of what it means to accept risk, to enter the realm of the unknown. Structure is only confirmation, AFTER the fact. Yet, so many traders want to use the profile as a signal (not saying you do, just that many do). It's a map, but it provides no signal.
And my point in all of this is that you are already a good trader with intuition and logic, something that many traders do not have. If you can use profiling to complement what you do, you can have a more complete picture, but it should not replace your instincts as a trader, because you have good instincts.
The following 4 users say Thank You to josh for this post:
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
Posts: 49,360 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,046 given,
96,617
received
I see a lot of traders that are trying to use VP as a signal generator, like go short at naked VAH or long at VAL. Absolutely will. not. work.
Trying to use profile like that is like trying to use any indicator like that, none of them are going to give you an edge when used in such a way.
But if you understand the auction process and try to answer the question of what the market is trying to do vs what it has done, I think profile along with really any other simple entry signal is enough to make you a good trader, if you also use good trade and risk management.
Yes not many traders understand this simple concept MP/VP is not a system or indicator it is just a visual representation of price/volume distribution on a vertical scale.Its upto you how you interpret the information & use it in your decision making.
I noticed a few traders have a chart for "trade management". I don't. When I really think about it, I realize have everything I watch there for trade entry, not trade exit. I get out when I feel like it. Is that ego? Do my spidey-senses start tingling?
That reminds me of a time @josh was trading ES at triple/quad witching, and said something like "ES is going here and there is no red or green flash that is going to change it." Rule based, not feeling based.
For me, precise entry is 50% red or green flash. Much like I assume traders use volume ladder. (which is still the most annoying way to watch a market to me, but I keep trying.)
" I will follow my rules, I will take my stops, I will be disciplined and i will work with the market....NOT AGAINST IT! Professional mind control is the key"
" I will follow my rules, I will take my stops, I will be disciplined and i will work with the market....NOT AGAINST IT! Professional mind control is the key"
The following user says Thank You to greenr for this post:
Well, the good news is that somehow I ended the day up. The bad news is list is much longer. But #1 on the list is that I scalped the long side, and #2 is that I can't recall looking at any of my new indicators, which never once said "up". I decided I was going for a w4 "preferred zone" and there was no talking me out of it. Maybe I get a C+ in risk management today, but that is as good as it gets.
And I hope I can hold some of these thoughts until I get back from a DRs appt.
On a day like today, you can tell there was a huge amount of selling pressure and momentum.. At least on my charts it was. You could see very fast moves of 30 to 40 ticks over and over. When Price is moving with such force..it can easily smash through all but the strongest support. The minor s/r levels come into play much more when the momentum is not as extreme. Low momentum..more reversals plays.
High momentum..Lot's of surges and breakouts of price congestion. Better to just take entry triggers and ride for fast 20 to 30 tick pops . I nailed lots of them today.
Market profile is good..but it's best not to lose sight of what is happening in the immediate moment . Of course..you know all that already..
Just a reminder..
Failure is not an option
The following user says Thank You to lancelottrader for this post:
Whatever the trading skill is, applying it to the right side of the market more consistently is the pursuit. I try to change mine, or wish I could, or wonder if I should do something different. But at the same time, skills, or awareness of something is a hard thing to let go of. It is so hard to get in the first place. So when I reach a point of trying to move forward, I find self-created instinct to be hard to tell from the real thing. Hard to change.
I was watching NT this morning and kept noticing screen lag, had been noticing problems for awhile. I closed it and opened Sierra and the performance improvement was noticeable. It may be related to the memory usage and my hardware, but for my setup Sierra seems to be easier on it.
Gary, what MP/VP pack did you use on NT? I have been using Acme full pack with MTP code and a couple of other things ...plus I have dual Time frame charts open on ES, ZB and occasionally NQ open along with DOm execution with IQ feed and Vision and have never had any issues with NT (running a fairly common i7 SAndy Bridge at 2700K with 16GB memory)
Yesterday saw a strong continuation move to the downside with price setting new lows up until the the final periods, but the cumulative delta rose basically all day long. Price moved up roughly $1 going into K period.
Now this morning's jobs report sparked a push down that appears to have blown massive stops of long positions that built up yesterday, showing a 5k 1m volume bar...
but that move has pushed into a major support area on both the MP and the daily. Not going to short down here as that may be exhaustion.
And while I may be reading that the best trade to take was to jump in front of that freight train, I cannot do it when voume is that intense. And volume is the big topic of a post I never finished. My read of volume is limited to certain things. I think that is why I am so obsessed with studying the volume ladder, which still is just garbage to me. But I did load version 2 and it has some options that may be helpful.
Somewhere in there, will change my mind, but for now I am staying on the long train. I should have added at the push to 92ish but decided my risk was enough. That was way more heat than I am used to. But even a 1 contract 50 tick loss would be tolerable compared to what I am trying to teach myself. I do not like when a trade comes back on me, but that is a bad habit. Learned from scalping, trading positions, using multiple contracts, etc.
Maybe ES 1537. Really, CL 92.17. Yes, forget ES above whatever for right now. I don't trade ES and am just complicating my decisions.
