The Way of the AttitudeTrader - futures io
futures io futures trading



The Way of the AttitudeTrader


Discussion in Trading Journals

Updated by BeansTwoNiner
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one AttitudeTrader with 151 posts (482 thanks)
    2. looks_two Robert Carrillo with 14 posts (26 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Big Mike with 7 posts (13 thanks)
    4. looks_4 omni72 with 7 posts (15 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one Deucalion with 4.7 thanks per post
    2. looks_two AttitudeTrader with 3.2 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 omni72 with 2.1 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Robert Carrillo with 1.9 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 30,708 views
    2. thumb_up 610 thanks given
    3. group 43 followers
    1. forum 220 replies
    2. attach_file 2 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 100,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

The Way of the AttitudeTrader

(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
In the heat
 
Experience: None
Platform: Tradeovate
Trading: Energy
 
PandaWarrior's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,162 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 6,324 given, 13,368 received


AttitudeTrader View Post
@PandaWarrior, I sincerely appreciate your comments and desire to help. But at this point, as I said a few posts ago:

In other words, this is not about the method. It is entirely, completely, 100% about this exercise in consistency.

However, rest assured that I'm keeping detailed stats and notes about each and every trade and situation for later use.

Thanks again!

Ok, i get it. A testing phase. Stick with it then. Modify at the end.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to PandaWarrior for this post:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
The value of High minus Open and Open minus Low.
ThinkOrSwim
SC parameter optimization
Sierra Chart
Do You Have A PlayBooks/What Form Does It Take?
Traders Hideout
The value of open of bar for specific time for code.
ThinkOrSwim
QDEL
Stocks and ETFs
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
Lost & losing hope
25 thanks
VWAP for stock index futures trading?
25 thanks
Emini 4 Tick Scalp still valid?
17 thanks
Coronavirus COVID-19
17 thanks
Price Action Kewltech Style
15 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
Dallas, TX, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, T4
Broker: IQFeed
Trading: 6E
 
AttitudeTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 358 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 6,868 given, 867 received


PandaWarrior View Post
Ok, i get it. A testing phase. Stick with it then. Modify at the end.

No, it's not a testing phase. It's training. This isn't about testing and modifying the method/system. It's about building my skills as a trader.

Hopefully it will get clearer as I go along here.

-AT

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to AttitudeTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
Dallas, TX, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, T4
Broker: IQFeed
Trading: 6E
 
AttitudeTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 358 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 6,868 given, 867 received


The first two days of my consistency training have already been of value to me:
  • It's showing me how far away I am from the mindset I need to have in order to be successful as a trader (thinking in probabilities).
  • I can already see much more clearly what is working, what isn't, and the characteristics of the simple method I'm using.
I did not backtest the set of rules that I'm using, rather they're based on generally accepted trading wisdom (entering pullbacks in defined trends) and the simple ideas I was working with just prior to starting this exercise. So I really have no idea whether this method (set of rules) will generate a positive expectancy or not, but I'll be tracking the expectancy nonetheless (see chart* below). The first series of trades will likely cause relatively wide initial swings on the expectancy chart until there are enough data points for the numbers to begin to smooth out and more accurately reflect the results of the series.

And although this exercise is not about the method, it is interesting to note that it was profitable over the two days (7 trades) despite the missed and losing trades, simply because I followed my rules no matter what.

I intend to carry on next week with the exercise just as I've outlined so far in this thread.

Hope everyone has a great weekend.



*The data in the chart reflects expectancy after commission costs.

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to AttitudeTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Cleveland Ohio/United States
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tradestation
Broker: Tradestation, DeCarley, others
Trading: futures
 
Posts: 2,806 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,453 given, 5,418 received

Interesting stuff!

You say you are going to do a 20 trade sample size, then review and possibly modify your approach.

How did you determine 20? I've seen statisticians say 30 is the bare minimum for a statistically significant evaluation.

I'd recommend at least 50-100 trades before making any modification.

The reason is that, in a large set of trades, finding a good or bad run of 20 is not that difficult. Yet, that run is not indicative of the larger population.

My fear with only 20 trades is that you will constantly be modifying your approach, never giving any approach a real chance to show its true potential (or lack thereof). You will end up in a loop of constant searching and modifying, and good results will always seem just out of reach.


I'll give you a real world example that I currently trade... I have a strategy that when looking at 465 trades from 2008 to present, has had runs of 19 and 21 losing trades in a row. Surely, if you saw this in your 20 sample trade (or anything close to it), you'd dismiss this strategy as being worthless, and start making modifications.

Yet, over those 465 trades, the approach averages $294 per trade per contract, after slippage and commissions ($136K profit). It also had 4 very profitable years, and just 1 small losing year.


I just wanted to give you something to think about.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to kevinkdog for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
Calgary, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multiple
Broker: Multiple
Trading: Multiple
 
Deucalion's Avatar
 
Posts: 430 since Aug 2009


AttitudeTrader View Post
Amazing. The first part of the day I spent mostly in a state of frustration over seemingly missed opportunities. The second part of the day I spent mostly stunned that my winning trades were winners.

It just shows me how much I need this exercise.

Excellent read on PA though. I matched all your entries on order flow for Friday, except for #6 which was against the structure. no amount of training or consistency is going to help IF trades are taken when you have no edge.

6 of 7 entries were very good, with the flow (that was your edge). You seem to have the ability to flip easily from long to short based on flow - very good, The read of PA is very good too, much promise is being shown.

The day structure and the order flow at trade #6 follows. Not nit picking 1 bad trade out of 7, but admiring that you have great promise, I wish I was that good at PA, instead of relying on all sorts of goofy tools




PS - I know you dont use OF but the volume action on the 5range bar at 1158EST is a huge tell

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
Dallas, TX, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, T4
Broker: IQFeed
Trading: 6E
 
AttitudeTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 358 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 6,868 given, 867 received


kevinkdog View Post
Interesting stuff!

...I just wanted to give you something to think about.

Thanks for the input @kevinkdog.

In general I wouldn't disagree with any of your points (the 20-trade sample size comes from Trading In The Zone, pg. 197).

However, I must reiterate: This exercise is not about testing/modifying/improving a system/method.

This exercise is about going through a process of restructuring my mental environment in a way that allows me to interact with the market environment in the most appropriate and beneficial way possible. In other words, to act in my own best interests rather than sabotaging myself.

This is about training myself to think in probabilities and to behave in a consistently appropriate manner.

And the quickest, most effective way to do this that I am aware of at this point, is to forget about whether my system/method is “good” or not, and focus solely on executing the plan – my rules – as well as I possibly can, over and over and over and over again. Until I reach the point where I can act on those rules without the slightest hesitation or second-guessing (if it helps, think of this as being similar to the coin toss exercise you've surely heard of before).

It is only then that a system/method really has any value anyway. Think about it.

How many traders do you see, hear or read about who say things like, “I back-tested my system over 5 years of data and it was profitable, but I've taken 4 losers in a row and I couldn't make myself take the next trade. If I had just followed my plan I would have had a winning day,” or “My plan says to take profits at 30 ticks, but the trade went 50 ticks in my favor so quickly that I thought it would go a lot higher and I didn't want to miss the big move, but then it came back and stopped me out at break-even and I didn't get any profit,” or “I took a trade in my plan, but when price went against me 10 ticks, even though it didn't hit my stop, when it came back up to my entry I was glad to get out, but then it went on to be a profitable trade.”

In any of these cases (and these kinds of scenarios seem to be prevalent among traders) is it about the system/method? Does it have anything to do with whether a system/method was tested over 20 or 30 or 50 or 100-trade sample sizes and proven to be profitable?

For me, testing and modifying a system/method in an attempt to improve it is not where the work is right now. My work is to get to the place, mentally, where I can take advantage of any testing that I may have done by being able to actually execute it appropriately and consistently.

I believe that most traders think that they are already there. They think that they already possess the skills and attitudes necessary to execute their plan appropriately and consistently. And therefore they believe that there is no reason for them to do the kind of work I'm doing here. And yet they seem to continually experience that frustration of not being able to break through to consistent profitability. This is where I have spent my entire trading "career" so far.

There are obviously profitable systems/methods out there, but they are useless to a trader if he/she can't or won't follow them.

So many traders seem to think that they need to work hard to develop a good system/method, and then it's just an easy matter of applying it. But in my opinion it's just the opposite. The hard work is in developing the ability to apply the system/method, regardless of what that system/method may be.

Robert Pirsig
"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

This isn't an easy exercise for me and I expect that it will become more difficult. Because I want to make money. I want to have a profitable system/method. But that is, in my opinion now, getting the cart before the horse.

AttitudeTrader View Post
No, it's not a testing phase. It's training. This isn't about testing and modifying the method/system. It's about building my skills as a trader.

Thanks again,

-AT

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 10 users say Thank You to AttitudeTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
Dallas, TX, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, T4
Broker: IQFeed
Trading: 6E
 
AttitudeTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 358 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 6,868 given, 867 received


Deucalion View Post
Excellent read on PA though. I matched all your entries on order flow for Friday, except for #6 which was against the structure. no amount of training or consistency is going to help IF trades are taken when you have no edge.

6 of 7 entries were very good, with the flow (that was your edge). You seem to have the ability to flip easily from long to short based on flow - very good, The read of PA is very good too, much promise is being shown.

The day structure and the order flow at trade #6 follows. Not nit picking 1 bad trade out of 7, but admiring that you have great promise, I wish I was that good at PA, instead of relying on all sorts of goofy tools

@Deucalion You are too kind - and I mean that seriously. I am not "reading" PA. I am simply following the rules that I have written in my trading plan. The only "promise" that I can take credit for showing is that I'm following my rules.

But, as always, I am grateful for your feedback and your analysis is always of value to me. Additionally, any compliments I get from you are never taken lightly.

"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
Dallas, TX, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, T4
Broker: IQFeed
Trading: 6E
 
AttitudeTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 358 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 6,868 given, 867 received

Ended the day shaking my head again.

Once I took that losing trade and price continued its strong move up (beginning around 09:30CT), I really didn't think I'd have much in the way of good setups – but I was wrong.

Trade #8
08:42 Long on valid setup.
08:44 Getting nervous about this one. That doesn't change my plan or my intent to follow it though.
08:47 Nervous again as it moved back down some.
08:52 Out target. +6 ticks.

Trade #9
09:51 Short on valid setup.
09:58 MAE is only 2 ticks at this point, but I'm pretty confident that this one is going to get stopped out.
10:20 Stopped out. -5 ticks. But it doesn't matter. This isn't about winning or losing.

Trade #10
12:31 Long on valid setup.
12:47 I'm long right into HOD and I'm not liking the hesitation here. But it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that I follow my plan.
12:57 Price has dropped back down below my entry now – getting worried.
13:01 Further down now. Stop not hit, but pretty sure this is it.
13:12 Wow. Price has turned around and moved to within 1 tick of my target. It has hit within 1 tick quite a few times and then backed down. Now I'm worried about losing the profit I could have had. It's irrelevant though. My only objective here is to follow my rules.
13:14 Out target. +6 ticks. Amazing.

Hesitating
13:29 I find myself hesitating to place the order for the next potential setup because I don't think this is a good place to be entering and I'm afraid of giving back the profits I've made for the day. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that I follow my rules.

Trade #11
14:11 Long on valid setup. I don't like this one at all. It's irrelevant though. It doesn't matter if this trade is a winner or a loser. The only thing that matters is that I follow my rules.
14:22 MAE = 2 ticks so far. Quite certain this is going to continue down and stop me out.
14:27 Wow. Price is back up to within 1 tick of my target.
14:30 Unreal. Out target. +6 ticks.

Done For The Day
14:30 No more new orders.




"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to AttitudeTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
Dallas, TX, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, T4
Broker: IQFeed
Trading: 6E
 
AttitudeTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 358 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 6,868 given, 867 received

Today was pretty much the same as the last few days: Most of the trades surprised me – specifically the winners.

What I find interesting is my attitude at the end of the session today. I was a little bummed about my last trade being a loser because I had had my best day yet up to that point and then gave some of my profits back.

This is interesting to me because it is nothing more than a perspective – a destructive one at that. Because not only did I follow my rules and work out some DOM entry issues today, I did, in fact, have my second most profitable day yet during this exercise, and my fourth profitable day in a row. Those last two items are not my objectives, but those are the results. So is there really anything to be bummed about?

This exercise is as much about developing the appropriate attitudes as it is about following my rules and being consistent.

So is the glass half-empty or half-full? It's a choice.

Trade #12
08:30 Short on valid setup. I really don't like taking this right at the open. I'm sure price will test higher and probably stop me out.
08:35 4 ticks MAE now...
08:40 Setup in the other direction is about to trigger. Limit order is moved up.
08:42 Out at modified limit. +1 tick.

Trade #13
08:42 Long on valid setup. Switching to longs now. Little hectic getting the orders in correctly.
08:47 Price is really stalling and the range is very tight – I don't like this.
08:53 Letting myself get a bit stressed out here. But I shouldn't be because this is just another trade. It doesn't matter if it wins or not.
09:11 Out target after 29 minutes. +6 ticks.

Trade #14
09:16 Long on valid setup. Didn't even have time to log my numbers for the last exit. A little stressed.
09:23 Stopped out. -5 ticks.

Trade #15
10:13 Short on valid setup.
10:26 Out target. +6 ticks. Thought this one would move a lot farther, but it only exceeded my target by 1 tick.

Trade #16
11:29 Long on valid setup.
11:59 Out target. +6 ticks. Another one that I didn't think would work out. Irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that I followed my rules.

Trade #17
14:24 Long on valid setup. Only 4 minutes before my cut-off time – ugh. Buying after break/test of HOD and yesterday's close and I don't like this... But it's irrelevant. I have to follow my rules.
14:32 Wishing I hadn't taken a trade this close to the close and after having a good day so far. I want to move my stop up. But that is irrelevant! Just follow the plan!
14:24 Ugh. Stopped out. -4 ticks. It doesn't matter though. There's no way I can know in advance whether it will be a winner or not, and they're not all going to be winners. It's just another trade!




"Is it hard? Not if you have the right attitude. It's having the right attitude that's hard." - Robert Pirsig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to AttitudeTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
Tulsa, OK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw, Ninja Trader, Sierra Chart
Broker: Ninjatrader/Rithmic
Trading: G&L Tribute Series Rampage
 
omni72's Avatar
 
Posts: 348 since Jan 2012
Thanks: 582 given, 618 received


Excellent work and journal, AttitudeTrader! Really enjoying the side-car perspective as you take on this quest. Keep up the awesome progress.

And, obviously, keep us posted on it

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. ~ Seneca
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to omni72 for this post:


futures io Trading Community Trading Journals > The Way of the AttitudeTrader


June 30, 2013


Upcoming Webinars and Events
     



Copyright © 2020 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts