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This is good advise, so I will follow it...
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This is good advise, so I will follow it...

  #131 (permalink)
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24.1.2012

10 trades today. Still working on my stops and where the best place to put them, as well as trailing. Had a couple of trades move away from me today, got stopped out at the begginnig of the move. Was also early on a couple of trades, and got taken out, tho the overall move was right.

+45 ticks today.

-13 and -11 on 2 trades.

one -2 BE slippage

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This is good advise, so I will follow it...-cl-03-12-5-min-trades-1_24_2012.jpg  
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  #132 (permalink)
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25.1.2012

Last couple of weeks I have been focusing on a few things. I am looking at adding a few things to compliment what i have already been doing.

I havnt been involved in trading futures very long, only a few months, really since October of 2011. Started looking into it last August, but by the time I had every thing setup, it was into September.

Looked at the pay to learn sites, make money in your PJ's, start with 500 dollars and make 2000 a day blah, blah...

Have a buddy that was on ShadowTraders, and he was all fired up about it, but now, he has abandoned it almost completely. He must have spent 5 thousand with them. Was with them for almost 2 years. He is with another group now, someone whom he met on one of the conferences put on by ShadowTraders in the Bahamas. He knows about futures.io (formerly BMT), but he cant see the value in it.

In a lot of respects, trading is truly a solitary endeavor. You have to take responsibility for your own mistakes, embrace them, learn from them, examine them closely, so as to minimise them in the future. I didnt say get rid of, because you will make mistakes, you will place losing trades.

I percieve, however, that thre potential for making mistakes increases with the number of trade one makes. And , statistically, what is the average tick gain on a winning trade based on ones strategy verses a wrong trade. therfre, when I am right on a trade, i want to capture more ticks on the right move, recognising on CL that its really only good for 2 to 3 big moves a day. the key is to recognise them early enough to get a good entry, and not to get greedy and take too much out of it, while keeping an eye on your stop and the frequency of the price movement.

To me this means mutiple stops and trailing on my strategy.

And reduce the number of trasdes. Thats what I did today, or attempted to do.

Was a bit of nervous Nelly, as I was out of my comfort zone a little...not necessarily a bad thing,.

Asa result, I was able to recognise 3 moves from 7:30 EST.

7 trades.

-47+46+43-25+18+43+42 = 117

Dindt get a full stop today, but I could have got more if I adjusted mt trailing stop better. Not really sure if I am using it properly, so I was still on the mouse, moving it manually. Thats the nervous part.

Anyway, thats how it went. I think I am on the right track.

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  #133 (permalink)
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VinceVirgil View Post
Last couple of weeks I have been focusing on a few things. I am looking at adding a few things to compliment what i have already been doing.

I havnt been involved in trading futures very long, only a few months, really since October of 2011. Started looking into it last August, but by the time I had every thing setup, it was into September.

Looked at the pay to learn sites, make money in your PJ's, start with 500 dollars and make 2000 a day blah, blah...

Have a buddy that was on ShadowTraders, and he was all fired up about it, but now, he has abandoned it almost completely. He must have spent 5 thousand with them. Was with them for almost 2 years. He is with another group now, someone whom he met on one of the conferences put on by ShadowTraders in the Bahamas. He knows about futures.io (formerly BMT), but he cant see the value in it.

In a lot of respects, trading is truly a solitary endeavor. You have to take responsibility for your own mistakes, embrace them, learn from them, examine them closely, so as to minimise them in the future. I didnt say get rid of, because you will make mistakes, you will place losing trades.

I percieve, however, that thre potential for making mistakes increases with the number of trade one makes. And , statistically, what is the average tick gain on a winning trade based on ones strategy verses a wrong trade. therfre, when I am right on a trade, i want to capture more ticks on the right move, recognising on CL that its really only good for 2 to 3 big moves a day. the key is to recognise them early enough to get a good entry, and not to get greedy and take too much out of it, while keeping an eye on your stop and the frequency of the price movement.

To me this means mutiple stops and trailing on my strategy.

And reduce the number of trasdes. Thats what I did today, or attempted to do.

Was a bit of nervous Nelly, as I was out of my comfort zone a little...not necessarily a bad thing,.

Asa result, I was able to recognise 3 moves from 7:30 EST.

7 trades.

-47+46+43-25+18+43+42 = 117

Dindt get a full stop today, but I could have got more if I adjusted mt trailing stop better. Not really sure if I am using it properly, so I was still on the mouse, moving it manually. Thats the nervous part.

Anyway, thats how it went. I think I am on the right track.

You know, I wrote almost the same exact thing more than once about CL. The trick is finding those larger moves. We all know it will happen, its just which one. The 5M chart or greater is the chart to trade for those larger moves as well. So you are on the right track in that regard. You'll figure out the trail stop thing as you go along. Just look at price action to tell you where to get out.

Somewhere along the line I decided I was not the person that could hold for larger moves. I was constantly looking to lock in profit, tighten the stop, etc. Over managing the trade. So I opted for smaller, more easily attained targets. Today, it dawned on me that arbitrary targets are pretty stupid. At least in the sense that if I am holding for a large target, I shouldn't demand that I get at least "x" or "Y" ticks from this trade. If I am truly looking for larger targets, then simply get in, and ride it until you would rather be going the opposite direction or until it stalls out. That being said, I don't know if I can do that or not. I made 140 ticks today on sim after I stopped out earlier. That was three trades. In real life, thats probably not gonna happen for me. I was pretty nervous about it even on sim.

If you are the person that can hold a trade through pull backs, then holding for larger moves is by far and away, the right thing to do. Less trades means fewer chances to be really wrong, less commissions, less stress about finding entries. All around better way to go.

But for me at this stage, I am more or less dialed in to smaller targets.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #134 (permalink)
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PandaWarrior View Post
You know, I wrote almost the same exact thing more than once about CL. The trick is finding those larger moves. We all know it will happen, its just which one. The 5M chart or greater is the chart to trade for those larger moves as well. So you are on the right track in that regard. You'll figure out the trail stop thing as you go along. Just look at price action to tell you where to get out.

Somewhere along the line I decided I was not the person that could hold for larger moves. I was constantly looking to lock in profit, tighten the stop, etc. Over managing the trade. So I opted for smaller, more easily attained targets. Today, it dawned on me that arbitrary targets are pretty stupid. At least in the sense that if I am holding for a large target, I shouldn't demand that I get at least "x" or "Y" ticks from this trade. If I am truly looking for larger targets, then simply get in, and ride it until you would rather be going the opposite direction or until it stalls out. That being said, I don't know if I can do that or not. I made 140 ticks today on sim after I stopped out earlier. That was three trades. In real life, thats probably not gonna happen for me. I was pretty nervous about it even on sim.

If you are the person that can hold a trade through pull backs, then holding for larger moves is by far and away, the right thing to do. Less trades means fewer chances to be really wrong, less commissions, less stress about finding entries. All around better way to go.

But for me at this stage, I am more or less dialed in to smaller targets.

Aboutt not being the person to hold for larger targets... Why not be the same person, and have a different strategy for a the different outcomne you anticipate?

Ii was watching a trader on YouTube talking about trading, and he was talking S/R, trend channels, HOD, LOD, Ranges and the like. But he also mentioned t6he difference between a good trend trade, reversal trade, swing trade or scalp. The movement on teh 5 minute is obvious after the fact.

Real time, much different. So to recognize the conditions that exist for each, and to build a trade strategy that encorporates those differnt conditions in order to maximize the move, keeping your risk managable and a close watch on MM is really a challange.

It really is only possivble on multiple contracts, with a runner in case its a big move.

I did that today, after I posted, and worked ou pretty well.

3 contracts, hard point stop.

First 2 targets hit, you are profitable. (once trade is in the green, can manually move stop based on PA)

Runner trail stop.

Had 1 trade that this worked. After I wrote in my journal. +78 ticks on a single trade.

Only need 1 of those a day...all the rest can be BE.

And i can still scalp a few ticks, if the conditions are right...Of course, i have to have a second account for that.

I dont know if I am the buy and let it work either. Was nevous on it, but, it sure sounded cool when it hit that cash register sound.

i'll post the area on my chart.

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  #135 (permalink)
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VinceVirgil View Post
Aboutt not being the person to hold for larger targets... Why not be the same person, and have a different strategy for a the different outcomne you anticipate?

Ii was watching a trader on YouTube talking about trading, and he was talking S/R, trend channels, HOD, LOD, Ranges and the like. But he also mentioned t6he difference between a good trend trade, reversal trade, swing trade or scalp. The movement on teh 5 minute is obvious after the fact.

Real time, much different. So to recognize the conditions that exist for each, and to build a trade strategy that encorporates those differnt conditions in order to maximize the move, keeping your risk managable and a close watch on MM is really a challange.

It really is only possivble on multiple contracts, with a runner in case its a big move.

I did that today, after I posted, and worked ou pretty well.

3 contracts, hard point stop.

First 2 targets hit, you are profitable. (once trade is in the green, can manually move stop based on PA)

Runner trail stop.

Had 1 trade that this worked. After I wrote in my journal. +78 ticks on a single trade.

Only need 1 of those a day...all the rest can be BE.

And i can still scalp a few ticks, if the conditions are right...Of course, i have to have a second account for that.

I dont know if I am the buy and let it work either. Was nevous on it, but, it sure sounded cool when it hit that cash register sound.

i'll post the area on my chart.

I think my main issue is the idea I seem to have to be right about the overall big target. I get locked into the existing trade as well as the "target" I picked for the trade and fail to see the opposite signal which would be the reason to get out. If somehow I was able to remove the blinders created by the existing trade, I might be able to do both, scalp and longer runs.

I like the idea of potentially using two accounts for scalps and runners. I may investigate this further.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #136 (permalink)
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You have likely thought of this, but what if you have no target on the runner, just a trail stop once you get your early target(s) and therfore, profitable. That way, you let the market decide when it runs outta gas.

Happen on my last trade, runner went for 33 ticks before it came back to the 4 tick trail after it hit the 3rd step profit target. Until this afternoon, I never have captured 33 ticks on a single contract before. And that contributed almost 50% to the total of 78 for the trade. The first 2 didnt move that far.

Gary the Cl Assassin seems to have a similar approach once the entry is identified. So does Big Mike...saw it on one of his webinars. Big Mike showed an example of 5 contracts, 2 target 1, 2 target 2 and the last one a runner, if memory serves me correctly. In the book millionaire traders, one of the contributors had a similar approach.

What I am saying is that if you can identify conditions for a successful trade based on your parameters for identifying the first part of the move, , you already did the hard part. I dislike getting 15 ticks, then seeing it run for another 50. It dosnt feel like I made 15, but rather, I lost an easy 40 ticks. Adding the additional contract to run when profitable, or when your original targets are hit seems like a no brainer. Move the runner to BE on the completion of your first move, which would likely be 12 to 17 ticks.

CL is only good for 2-3 big moves a day. If they are that big, should be easy to spot it...no?

Looks at my 5 minute today. Looks pretty easy to spot them to me.

Attached Thumbnails
This is good advise, so I will follow it...-cl-03-12-5-min-late-day-1_25_2012.jpg  
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  #137 (permalink)
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I'm amazed at your progress. +40 tick average per day on the CL. Congratulations. An on practically a bare chart with a 20EMA similar to how Al Brooks does it. I've been a student of Al Brooks' method for a while but not fond of waiting so long to scalp 2-15 ticks a day on the ES five minute chart. (yes, all too often he advocates "doing nothing" for long stretches and even settling for 2-4 ticks in a tough day) He suggests adding more contract size instead of going for more trades and ticks, but to me , more ticks just feels more gratifying and somewhat more secure in reaffirming trading confidence. And watching some of Al's live webinars as we wait 1 hour sometimes to make a small 4 tick scalp is just maddening to me.

I've been trying futures for 2 years and I'm still trying to average 30-40 ticks/day on the 6E. I can do 12 ticks in maybe a few hours consistently but it's mostly scalps and totally draining on me. Like you mentioned yes, after I scalp out, half the time price goes maddeningly farther into profit without me for 5 to 15 more ticks sometimes. I got scared out of CL a couple times dipping into it after losing to stop losses. Maybe I should go for it again using my same current methods on the 6E.

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  #138 (permalink)
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VinceVirgil View Post
You have likely thought of this, but what if you have no target on the runner, just a trail stop once you get your early target(s) and therfore, profitable. That way, you let the market decide when it runs outta gas.

Happen on my last trade, runner went for 33 ticks before it came back to the 4 tick trail after it hit the 3rd step profit target. Until this afternoon, I never have captured 33 ticks on a single contract before. And that contributed almost 50% to the total of 78 for the trade. The first 2 didnt move that far.

Gary the Cl Assassin seems to have a similar approach once the entry is identified. So does Big Mike...saw it on one of his webinars. Big Mike showed an example of 5 contracts, 2 target 1, 2 target 2 and the last one a runner, if memory serves me correctly. In the book millionaire traders, one of the contributors had a similar approach.

What I am saying is that if you can identify conditions for a successful trade based on your parameters for identifying the first part of the move, , you already did the hard part. I dislike getting 15 ticks, then seeing it run for another 50. It dosnt feel like I made 15, but rather, I lost an easy 40 ticks. Adding the additional contract to run when profitable, or when your original targets are hit seems like a no brainer. Move the runner to BE on the completion of your first move, which would likely be 12 to 17 ticks.

CL is only good for 2-3 big moves a day. If they are that big, should be easy to spot it...no?

Looks at my 5 minute today. Looks pretty easy to spot them to me.


Lets consider to scenarios.

1. 5 lots scale out at three targets. Lets say they are 2x10, 2x20 and 1x40. Assuming we are talking crude oil here at $10 per tick that works out to $1000 before commissions

2. 5 lots all in all out at 10 ticks. This equals $1000

The advantage to #1 is that you have one trade therefore one set of commissions. Another one is that you cover your risk fairly soon and that takes the stress off of managing the trade out from there.

The down side is this, you need this runner to run out 40 ticks before it equals scenario #2

In my mind, the only upside is less commissions. While that is a valid consideration, the question is, how often will you get 40+ ticks on your trade? A given is that you will see 2-3 large moves each day on CL. Do you as a trader want to sit all day long waiting for them? If so, then the scale out works better if you will hold every trade looking for larger moves.

If you would rather take some decent profit during a set trading period of say 2 hours, then its possible to capture a larger move or be content with several ten tick trades if they present themselves.

Of course, there is another consideration and that is news. I personally don't trade 5 mins prior to the news. This means you would perhaps have to exit prior to a trade being finished or perhaps not entering a trade at all depending on when it set up.

Shorter term profit targets solves several problems for me. 1. the news issue, 2. my desired trading hours, and three, my personality in that I have trouble holding for longer moves and through pull backs.

The way I see it, if you trade all day, larger moves are the way to go, anything less than that, smaller targets. Maybe not my ten ticks but anything between 10 and 50 with a trader taking profits at logical points.

Its not perfect yet, but its where I am at....and at least for now, seems to be working.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #139 (permalink)
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Cloudy View Post
I'm amazed at your progress. +40 tick average per day on the CL. Congratulations. An on practically a bare chart with a 20EMA similar to how Al Brooks does it. I've been a student of Al Brooks' method for a while but not fond of waiting so long to scalp 2-15 ticks a day on the ES five minute chart. (yes, all too often he advocates "doing nothing" for long stretches and even settling for 2-4 ticks in a tough day) He suggests adding more contract size instead of going for more trades and ticks, but to me , more ticks just feels more gratifying and somewhat more secure in reaffirming trading confidence. And watching some of Al's live webinars as we wait 1 hour sometimes to make a small 4 tick scalp is just maddening to me.

I've been trying futures for 2 years and I'm still trying to average 30-40 ticks/day on the 6E. I can do 12 ticks in maybe a few hours consistently but it's mostly scalps and totally draining on me. Like you mentioned yes, after I scalp out, half the time price goes maddeningly farther into profit without me for 5 to 15 more ticks sometimes. I got scared out of CL a couple times dipping into it after losing to stop losses. Maybe I should go for it again using my same current methods on the 6E.

I hear you. Al is a differant cat, for sure. Patience of a 3 toed sloth. I have spent a full session just watching the market and not trading. Afterward, I felt I accomplished something, but, there were times during the day I couldnt sit still.

Al's techniques work on any market, including the CL. But the CL moves, so the instrument fits my personality much better. 15 + tick moves are not uncommon, but I use the 5 minute. i tried shorter time frames, but the the candles looked like Jackson Pollloch was splashing paint all over the screen. Gave me too many false signals.

As far as the tick averages, I have had a few down days, but not that many. Last few sessions it has been increasing, as I am working on a couple of different strategies that encorporate bigger moves with bigger targets. Its still a work in progress.

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  #140 (permalink)
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26.1.2012


I owe a debt of gratitude to this forum. I can honestly say that I would not be where I am without the benefits of this Forum. It has been a major help.

The trading journal has been extremely beneficial. Looking back over it, in conjunction with my written journal and hardcopy charts, is likely the single biggest contributor to my education in trading. In fact, the contacts that I have made through the forum, and the feedback I have received, not to mention the wonderful resources, indicators, webinars, threads. To get where I am today, would have taken me 2 more years and 10,000 headaches.
Anyway, working on a couple of different strategies with regard to risk and mony management.

Still trading the same setups, but now I am lengthening my time horizon and increasing my targets, and incresing my SL, where appropriate.

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