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The PandaWarrior Chronicles


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The PandaWarrior Chronicles

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  #1601 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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+30 Ticks today. Would have been a lot more but only IF:

1. I had not depended on a Level from Friday
2. I had complete rollover data. Turns out my chart looks nothing like the actual chart due to incomplete rollover data.
3. I had held my trade a bit longer. I trailed out about 1 second to soon.

In a conversation right now with NT as to why my charts will not load correctly. Every time I make a change with regard to the roll over information, i get a new chart that looks nothing like the previous one.

Still, happy to be up a decent amount. After looking at a real chart sent me by a friend, I would have had potentially +70 or so....oh well.....

One thing I've learned this last two weeks:

It does not matter one bit where you put the stop. There is a trade premise and the stop is how much you are willing to lose to find out if that premise is correct. End of story. There does not seem to be a benefit to a technical stop location at all.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1602 (permalink)
 xelaar 
prague, czech republic
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT7, MT4
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There is something about it, however there is something to consider as well:
- there is a point where trade premise will be invalidated
- most obvious technical stop locations ask to be tested and stops collected

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  #1603 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
It does not matter one bit where you put the stop. There is a trade premise and the stop is how much you are willing to lose to find out if that premise is correct. End of story. There does not seem to be a benefit to a technical stop location at all.

If the technical stop location is based on something like a prior S/R level ("2 ticks below the low" for example), then I agree 100% -- books and educators have trained retail traders very well over the last several decades to put their stops precisely where they do the most damage to the trader, and the most benefit to those who are willing to take advantage of it.

This is the primary disadvantage of using price alone as "truth" -- while volume can also be manipulated, it does a fairly good job of showing where those with actual skin in the game have the most to lose, and this can often be valuable in ascertaining where stops are located (and hence, where to take the other side).

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  #1604 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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josh View Post
If the technical stop location is based on something like a prior S/R level ("2 ticks below the low" for example), then I agree 100% -- books and educators have trained retail traders very well over the last several decades to put their stops precisely where they do the most damage to the trader, and the most benefit to those who are willing to take advantage of it.

This is the primary disadvantage of using price alone as "truth" -- while volume can also be manipulated, it does a fairly good job of showing where those with actual skin in the game have the most to lose, and this can often be valuable in ascertaining where stops are located (and hence, where to take the other side).

I think its one of three options: 1. No stop at all...not to smart in the case of a disconnect or 2. A stop that is within your comfort range if you lost it but far enough that its out of the noise....and I do mean way away from the noise or 3. A fixed dollar stop of whatever you feel like.

I've been using 10 tick stops on CL. Suicide right? Not so much actually. I'm doing much better overall with the ten tick stops than I ever did with the so called technical stops of 15-25 ticks. (I never took a trade greater than 25 ticks of technical stop) And to top it all off, my entries are probably worse than they were before in terms of "ideal" entry locations.

So for now, just going with it.....

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1605 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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Turns out I had to update NT, reset my instrument DB and restart NT. Perfect looking charts. I think the primary issue was I was using an older version of NT. Guess I'll do those updates when they say to from now on.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1606 (permalink)
 xelaar 
prague, czech republic
 
Experience: Intermediate
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PandaWarrior View Post
I think its one of three options: 1. No stop at all...not to smart in the case of a disconnect or 2. A stop that is within your comfort range if you lost it but far enough that its out of the noise....and I do mean way away from the noise or 3. A fixed dollar stop of whatever you feel like.

I've been using 10 tick stops on CL. Suicide right? Not so much actually. I'm doing much better overall with the ten tick stops than I ever did with the so called technical stops of 15-25 ticks. (I never took a trade greater than 25 ticks of technical stop) And to top it all off, my entries are probably worse than they were before in terms of "ideal" entry locations.

So for now, just going with it.....

It makes a lot of sense if you enter not based on locations (e.g. position trading) but based on momentum. Rightly timed you can get propelled well with 10 tick stop. I had 10 or even 6 working for me in GC, which is CL's evil cousin

Good job!

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  #1607 (permalink)
 Deucalion 
Calgary, Canada
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I think its one of three options: 1. No stop at all...not to smart in the case of a disconnect or 2. A stop that is within your comfort range if you lost it but far enough that its out of the noise....and I do mean way away from the noise or 3. A fixed dollar stop of whatever you feel like.

I've been using 10 tick stops on CL. Suicide right? Not so much actually. I'm doing much better overall with the ten tick stops than I ever did with the so called technical stops of 15-25 ticks. (I never took a trade greater than 25 ticks of technical stop) And to top it all off, my entries are probably worse than they were before in terms of "ideal" entry locations.

So for now, just going with it.....

Without going all nuts about edge, risk and randomness....I only started realizing last year how relentless execution of even a small edge produces a profitable business. For example - Here is random system with 50% win rate, with only a 1.25R gain for every 1R risk (Panda - in your case, if you take 1R to be 10ticks on CL), then the reward is 13ticks. Now assuming, 50G account with 1% risk taken and including commission, I modeled 1000 trades in 100 trade cycles to see if randomness would show robustness. And it does.

If you can sustain a 10tck stop on CL while keeping at least WR in balance would be crucial in this in the long run. Most pros dont manage more than 45 - 55% WR anyway, and they make it up in RR or size. Which is generally my attempt (roughly speaking)

The metrics of the system are very modest, as are the profits on each cycle. Yet, with 3 critical components, this turns out over 300% over a decent sample period. these components are the cornerstones of my business -
  1. Practicing small risk
  2. Execution of that small risk for robustness
  3. Compounding.

I beleive that is 95% of battle. Now there's probably, 100s of traders who do much more comprehensive RR and probability stuff out here, however a rudimentary exercise like this is enough to make one appreciate where the power lies. Like you say, keeps things simple and remember whats really important.



On an unrelated note regarding rollover, as you already found out, just rollback the Ninja default rollover date on the NT database to an earlier date to copy over volume from previous contract. Fairly basic once you know about it.

Also, unrelated - just skimmed over the AMP/CQG OCO posts - before I was on vacation I was trading one of my three accounts (which is with APM/CQG - other two are Vision and FuturePath). And I don't trust their new OCO functionality. I had a position hang on me one time, when I had 30 ES cars on. It wasn't hard to resolve, although it cost me a little money. Shit happens. Just gotta be prepared. I had a laugh about it later with both NT and AMP.

Having said that, the other two accounts; Vision and FuturePath (the same FuturePath of Linda Raschke and Damon Pavalatos fame), have been spot on. The Photon DOM is spectacular (though still not as simple as NT DOM).

Peace

 
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  #1608 (permalink)
 rubyslippage 
Phoenix, AZ
 
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What works best to keep me in the zone is to determine in advance the price at which my trade premise would be invalidated, and decide whether I want to pay that price. If the cost is 14 ticks or less, and the minimum potential profit target is at least equal to that, I’m comfortable with the trade and very likely to place the order without hesitation.

There are price environments where technical stops are likely to result in nothing more than a stop run and I generally avoid taking a position until the Battle of Bulls and Bears unfolds to the point that I see a price level beyond which one side is more likely to retreat rather than suffer serious casualties.

For me, the two environments I avoid trading until further clarity appears are price action around a flat 20-period EMA, and initial breaks out of wide ranges or trend/channel lines. This is where the professionals play and are very adept at removing money from the accounts of inexperienced and undercapitalized traders.

With CL, a 10 tick stop on a momentum play (breakout of a key level) makes sense and is reasonable. Sometimes a stop of 20 ticks or greater is reasonable, in which case I wait for a “safer” setup because I find it easy to recover from small losses, therefore small losses have no negative effect on my overall trading mindset.

xelaar, awesome GC trading!

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  #1609 (permalink)
 addchild 
Bay Area California
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
It does not matter one bit where you put the stop. There is a trade premise and the stop is how much you are willing to lose to find out if that premise is correct. End of story. There does not seem to be a benefit to a technical stop location at all.

I completely agree with this, with the exception of benefiting from other peoples terribly placed stops.

IMO, stops are one of the single most important things in trading, but not necessarily stops, just knowing "How much do I need to risk?" Not just this one time, but on average how much do I need to risk to get the outcome that I'm looking for. Or more importantly (IMO), "What am I getting for my risk? How much exposure will x ticks buy me?"

Most retail traders think of risk/reward in terms of profit and loss, and entirely overlook the fact that profit (assuming your skilled and can position yourself on the right side of the market), is entirely governed volatility. You've got no control over how much you will make on a given trade, or 100 trades, the only thing you control is how much your willing to spend.

Something everyone would benefit from is reminding yourself of what it is that your doing when you make a trade and put in a stop, like "I'm spending $156.25 (5 ticks) to expose myself to the change in value of $100,000 of 30 year treasuries." it greatly helps you keep in touch with reality, and maybe give a second thought to "huh, just how important is that little level my order is hiding behind" cause the answer is, NOT VERY!


.
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  #1610 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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Deucalion View Post
Without going all nuts about edge, risk and randomness....I only started realizing last year how relentless execution of even a small edge produces a profitable business. For example - Here is random system with 50% win rate, with only a 1.25R gain for every 1R risk (Panda - in your case, if you take 1R to be 10ticks on CL), then the reward is 13ticks. Now assuming, 50G account with 1% risk taken and including commission, I modeled 1000 trades in 100 trade cycles to see if randomness would show robustness. And it does.

If you can sustain a 10tck stop on CL while keeping at least WR in balance would be crucial in this in the long run. Most pros dont manage more than 45 - 55% WR anyway, and they make it up in RR or size. Which is generally my attempt (roughly speaking)

The metrics of the system are very modest, as are the profits on each cycle. Yet, with 3 critical components, this turns out over 300% over a decent sample period. these components are the cornerstones of my business -
  1. Practicing small risk
  2. Execution of that small risk for robustness
  3. Compounding.

I beleive that is 95% of battle. Now there's probably, 100s of traders who do much more comprehensive RR and probability stuff out here, however a rudimentary exercise like this is enough to make one appreciate where the power lies. Like you say, keeps things simple and remember whats really important.



Peace

I'm currently targeting 20 ticks as the bread and butter trades with a 46% win rate. A higher than usual number of BE but I go BE once I get to +15. If price is moving my way quickly and it looks like structurally I might get a runner, I move the target out and start to add to the runner.....however, I only started this today. I've been looking at how to do it successfully and I think I mostly figured it out.

So far so good...stay tuned.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
Started this thread
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  #1611 (permalink)
 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
+30 Ticks today. Would have been a lot more but only IF:


2. I had complete rollover data. Turns out my chart looks nothing like the actual chart due to incomplete rollover data.
...

I had a horrible time with rollover this month. Could not get ETH vwap for anything, it started at midnight and would not even try to negotiate. lol!

And I went to SC thinking that was one of the plusses...

It happens, wait a few days and it will fix itself.

 
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  #1612 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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GaryD View Post
I had a horrible time with rollover this month. Could not get ETH vwap for anything, it started at midnight and would not even try to negotiate. lol!

Eh? User error, Gary. Sounds like a setting is not right. Send me a shot of the settings if you want me to look at it.

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  #1613 (permalink)
 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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josh View Post
Eh? User error, Gary. Sounds like a setting is not right. Send me a shot of the settings if you want me to look at it.

Possibly, but I am getting pretty comfortabe with Sierra. I checked the chart settings for day and evening times, indicator settings for times, reloaded data, nothing worked. RTH was fine, but ETH would not pick up 1800. But tonight it did on it's own, and it did not hurt my trading today, just another curveball. If it persists I will send up a flare.

 
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  #1614 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, thinkorswim
Broker: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Trading: CL, GC, NQ
 
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Deucalion View Post
Without going all nuts about edge, risk and randomness....I only started realizing last year how relentless execution of even a small edge produces a profitable business. For example - Here is random system with 50% win rate, with only a 1.25R gain for every 1R risk (Panda - in your case, if you take 1R to be 10ticks on CL), then the reward is 13ticks. Now assuming, 50G account with 1% risk taken and including commission, I modeled 1000 trades in 100 trade cycles to see if randomness would show robustness. And it does.

Would you mind sharing this modeling file?

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  #1615 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Broker: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Trading: CL, GC, NQ
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I'm currently targeting 20 ticks as the bread and butter trades with a 46% win rate. A higher than usual number of BE but I go BE once I get to +15. If price is moving my way quickly and it looks like structurally I might get a runner, I move the target out and start to add to the runner.....however, I only started this today. I've been looking at how to do it successfully and I think I mostly figured it out.

So far so good...stay tuned.

Do you think its best to test these changes in method/money management/scaling etc on sim or live?

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  #1616 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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Futures Operator View Post
Do you think its best to test these changes in method/money management/scaling etc on sim or live?


live if you can afford it, trade small though until you are sure. If not, sim for as short a time as possible.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1617 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, thinkorswim
Broker: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Trading: CL, GC, NQ
 
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Futures Operator View Post
Would you mind sharing this modeling file?

Thanks, in case anyone else wants it:

Attached Files
Register to download File Type: xls MoneyExpertEC.xls (248.0 KB, 58 views)
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  #1618 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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Posts: 3,163 since Mar 2010
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My family is beginning to have family reunions at the freakin hospital. The docs are all walking into the rooms saying things like "I remember you". My mom is once again in the hospital with a serious kidney infection. I am getting sick of that place.

I drove a friend to the airport in Phoenix yesterday after trading.....6 hours round trip. Thank God for XM radio.

Pretty tired last night but felt pretty good today. Health wise I feel like I am making slow progress. Lost 20 pounds so far, my energy is better, slowly starting to eat better. No soda for over a month now, little to no sugar, almost no bread although I found some without all the crap in it and I love it. On the advice of a friend, I added some supplements to my diet to help offset the negative effects of the heart meds....thank you, you know who you are....dang that stuff was expensive.

Been clicking on all cylinders lately. Seeing the market fairly well. Taking my stops, and lately, adding to the winners albeit somewhat tentatively. This is the way to make money though. Enter small, start adding to winners as soon as its safe, trail out on the entire position at some point. I am still getting a little nervous on those trails, exiting a bit to soon. But I'm making money again. Thats a huge deal for me. I had my best pnl day today in a long time on top of yesterday's very decent day. I had to leave early yesterday or I think I could have a monster day based on the chart...hindsight is 20/20 of course.

I had a break through moment a few days ago. Been targeting 20 ticks and that does seem to be a great number for me. But something someone said flipped a switch for me in terms of embracing uncertainty and all of a sudden I didn't care about any single trade near as much as I had previously. More important though, I realized with that place in your mind that really embraces an idea that not only is each entry random in terms of it working out but so is how far it might travel in my favor. Suddenly holding for larger exits became a reality for me. Not just intellectually but emotionally. That being said, I've gotten several 30-40 tick trades. Looking to extend those out to 40-60 as time goes by. I can be patient with that.

The biggest thing though was the heart attack. It drilled into my psyche how temporary and uncertain EVERYTHING in life is. And that changed the way I think about the markets. Permanently. Which is a really good thing. Almost all the stress I felt while waiting and waiting and then while the trade was in progress is nearly gone. What a feeling.

Another major thing is I am thinking like a winner again. I expect to win......huge win for me.

Haven't posted a chart in a while so thought I would throw one up just to add a placeholder for me as time goes by.

Cheers


Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1619 (permalink)
 trs3042 
Holland, Michigan
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
My family is beginning to have family reunions at the freakin hospital. The docs are all walking into the rooms saying things like "I remember you". My mom is once again in the hospital with a serious kidney infection. I am getting sick of that place.

I drove a friend to the airport in Phoenix yesterday after trading.....6 hours round trip. Thank God for XM radio.

Pretty tired last night but felt pretty good today. Health wise I feel like I am making slow progress. Lost 20 pounds so far, my energy is better, slowly starting to eat better. No soda for over a month now, little to no sugar, almost no bread although I found some without all the crap in it and I love it. On the advice of a friend, I added some supplements to my diet to help offset the negative effects of the heart meds....thank you, you know who you are....dang that stuff was expensive.

Been clicking on all cylinders lately. Seeing the market fairly well. Taking my stops, and lately, adding to the winners albeit somewhat tentatively. This is the way to make money though. Enter small, start adding to winners as soon as its safe, trail out on the entire position at some point. I am still getting a little nervous on those trails, exiting a bit to soon. But I'm making money again. Thats a huge deal for me. I had my best pnl day today in a long time on top of yesterday's very decent day. I had to leave early yesterday or I think I could have a monster day based on the chart...hindsight is 20/20 of course.

I had a break through moment a few days ago. Been targeting 20 ticks and that does seem to be a great number for me. But something someone said flipped a switch for me in terms of embracing uncertainty and all of a sudden I didn't care about any single trade near as much as I had previously. More important though, I realized with that place in your mind that really embraces an idea that not only is each entry random in terms of it working out but so is how far it might travel in my favor. Suddenly holding for larger exits became a reality for me. Not just intellectually but emotionally. That being said, I've gotten several 30-40 tick trades. Looking to extend those out to 40-60 as time goes by. I can be patient with that.

The biggest thing though was the heart attack. It drilled into my psyche how temporary and uncertain EVERYTHING in life is. And that changed the way I think about the markets. Permanently. Which is a really good thing. Almost all the stress I felt while waiting and waiting and then while the trade was in progress is nearly gone. What a feeling.

Another major thing is I am thinking like a winner again. I expect to win......huge win for me.

Haven't posted a chart in a while so thought I would throw one up just to add a placeholder for me as time goes by.

Cheers


@PandaWarrior

Great uplifting post Brian. Glad things are changing for the better. Your hard work and perseverance is to be admired. Always enjoy viewing your charts. Best wishes to your Mom for a speedy recovery.

Rick

"If you're going to panic during a trade............. panic early."
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  #1620 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
Legendary Market Wizard
west palm beach florida usa
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
My family is beginning to have family reunions at the freakin hospital. The docs are all walking into the rooms saying things like "I remember you". My mom is once again in the hospital with a serious kidney infection. I am getting sick of that place.

I drove a friend to the airport in Phoenix yesterday after trading.....6 hours round trip. Thank God for XM radio.

Pretty tired last night but felt pretty good today. Health wise I feel like I am making slow progress. Lost 20 pounds so far, my energy is better, slowly starting to eat better. No soda for over a month now, little to no sugar, almost no bread although I found some without all the crap in it and I love it. On the advice of a friend, I added some supplements to my diet to help offset the negative effects of the heart meds....thank you, you know who you are....dang that stuff was expensive.

Been clicking on all cylinders lately. Seeing the market fairly well. Taking my stops, and lately, adding to the winners albeit somewhat tentatively. This is the way to make money though. Enter small, start adding to winners as soon as its safe, trail out on the entire position at some point. I am still getting a little nervous on those trails, exiting a bit to soon. But I'm making money again. Thats a huge deal for me. I had my best pnl day today in a long time on top of yesterday's very decent day. I had to leave early yesterday or I think I could have a monster day based on the chart...hindsight is 20/20 of course.

I had a break through moment a few days ago. Been targeting 20 ticks and that does seem to be a great number for me. But something someone said flipped a switch for me in terms of embracing uncertainty and all of a sudden I didn't care about any single trade near as much as I had previously. More important though, I realized with that place in your mind that really embraces an idea that not only is each entry random in terms of it working out but so is how far it might travel in my favor. Suddenly holding for larger exits became a reality for me. Not just intellectually but emotionally. That being said, I've gotten several 30-40 tick trades. Looking to extend those out to 40-60 as time goes by. I can be patient with that.

The biggest thing though was the heart attack. It drilled into my psyche how temporary and uncertain EVERYTHING in life is. And that changed the way I think about the markets. Permanently. Which is a really good thing. Almost all the stress I felt while waiting and waiting and then while the trade was in progress is nearly gone. What a feeling.

Another major thing is I am thinking like a winner again. I expect to win......huge win for me.

Haven't posted a chart in a while so thought I would throw one up just to add a placeholder for me as time goes by.

Cheers


I'm glad you're health is improving.
I wonder sometimes how much my trading could be impacting my health. Although I've always been healthy, eaten well..and exercised..I get constant adrenaline rushes when I trade. I often get very stressed out. I feel my heart beating 100 miles an hour ( this is usually after entering a trade when I have just had a couple of losses already) and I know my blood pressure is probably spiking. I get headaches for hours sometimes after a stressful session.
Besides those reactions, I do fairly well with my trading... but being I recently turned 50..I am concerned a bit about the physical toll it's putting on me.

Do you feel your trading had any impact on your heart condition or do you remain mostly calm when you trade?

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 PandaWarrior 
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lancelottrader View Post
I'm glad you're health is improving.
I wonder sometimes how much my trading could be impacting my health. Although I've always been healthy, eaten well..and exercised..I get constant adrenaline rushes when I trade. I often get very stressed out. I feel my heart beating 100 miles an hour ( this is usually after entering a trade when I have just had a couple of losses already) and I know my blood pressure is probably spiking. I get headaches for hours sometimes after a stressful session.
Besides those reactions, I do fairly well with my trading... but being I recently turned 50..I am concerned a bit about the physical toll it's putting on me.

Do you feel your trading had any impact on your heart condition or do you remain mostly calm when you trade?

I used to have the sweats, the shakes, the you name it and I had it....a session would leave me drenched and exhausted. Somewhere along the way, that left.

I think it has been in part due to a few factors.
  • I've gotten used to it??????
  • I'm more confident in my set ups and know they have a certain expectancy
  • Some stress management ideas
  • Limiting my trading hours although after today I might revisit this.... lol...
  • Embracing the uncertainty (I think this the most important)

It sounds to me like you are setting yourself up for a heart attack. Stress plays really unpleasant tricks on your body. Even if you don't think it's affecting you it is. My suggestion is you need to find a way to deal with the stress before it kills you. Change your trading style to something less stressful, perhaps automate it somehow, turn it over to a manager or another trader you respect with instructions on how you want it traded, etc......or find that place inside yourself that embraces the unknown and allows the market to play itself out. After all, all you're doing is placing a bet that something might happen. Figure out how much you are willing to lose to find out if you are wrong and embrace it.....let it run if you are right....

Something I've just started doing is adding to a trade. Starting small and adding when right. The great traders do this while us scared retail traders are looking for scale outs.......this has helped with my initial stress when entering a trade. I'm wrong small and even though its been just this week, I'm right big....its the old adage, shit like a bird and eat like an elephant. Most do it backwards, they eat like a bird and shit like an elephant. I think this will make a huge difference in both my losers and winners over time.

If you want to talk more specifics about your situation, PM me. I'm always happy to assist if I can.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 lancelottrader 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I used to have the sweats, the shakes, the you name it and I had it....a session would leave me drenched and exhausted. Somewhere along the way, that left.

I think it has been in part due to a few factors.
  • I've gotten used to it??????
  • I'm more confident in my set ups and know they have a certain expectancy
  • Some stress management ideas
  • Limiting my trading hours although after today I might revisit this.... lol...
  • Embracing the uncertainty (I think this the most important)

It sounds to me like you are setting yourself up for a heart attack. Stress plays really unpleasant tricks on your body. Even if you don't think it's affecting you it is. My suggestion is you need to find a way to deal with the stress before it kills you. Change your trading style to something less stressful, perhaps automate it somehow, turn it over to a manager or another trader you respect with instructions on how you want it traded, etc......or find that place inside yourself that embraces the unknown and allows the market to play itself out. After all, all you're doing is placing a bet that something might happen. Figure out how much you are willing to lose to find out if you are wrong and embrace it.....let it run if you are right....

Something I've just started doing is adding to a trade. Starting small and adding when right. The great traders do this while us scared retail traders are looking for scale outs.......this has helped with my initial stress when entering a trade. I'm wrong small and even though its been just this week, I'm right big....its the old adage, shit like a bird and eat like an elephant. Most do it backwards, they eat like a bird and shit like an elephant. I think this will make a huge difference in both my losers and winners over time.

If you want to talk more specifics about your situation, PM me. I'm always happy to assist if I can.

Thank you so much.

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 PandaWarrior 
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lancelottrader View Post

Do you feel your trading had any impact on your heart condition or do you remain mostly calm when you trade?

I didn't answer this directly....

No I do not feel like my trading affected my heart condition. My entire family on both sides has some form of heart disease. All my numbers are good. There is no reason for me to have heart disease other than the genetic factor.

This is the only thing that worries me. Are my diet and exercise changes going to be enough? The great unknown for me....and I have to embrace it just like trading....if I'm wrong, its not just a ten tick stop, its life or death. That freaks me out a bit.....but I'm learning slowly to be ok with it......slowly....

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 xelaar 
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Just take it slowly, @PandaWarrior. In a sense we all are between live and death - anybody can be hit today by car, murdered on streets, choke on chicken bone. It's only about probabilities. But as we are traders and play a game of probabilities every day we know that any single event can have absolutely random probability of occurring. We don't have millions of lives to decide scientifically whether to fly on a plan or drive by a car with regards to accident probability. It either happens or not for us. Take is same way. Relax and let it be. All the kudos to you.

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 podski 
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lancelottrader View Post
I often get very stressed out. I feel my heart beating 100 miles an hour ( this is usually after entering a trade when I have just had a couple of losses already) and I know my blood pressure is probably spiking. I get headaches for hours sometimes after a stressful session.
Besides those reactions, I do fairly well with my trading... but being I recently turned 50..I am concerned a bit about the physical toll it's putting on me.

Do you feel your trading had any impact on your heart condition or do you remain mostly calm when you trade?

@lancelottrader

Don't hesitate to just go to you doctor, get checked out and then you will know if there is anything to worry about.

Most likely your heart and body are just keeping up with the pace of modern life and those signs are signs that you are indeed alive !! Go get it sorted with a doc.

Think of it as the ultimate risk management !

p

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 PandaWarrior 
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I've begun using my handwritten journal more and more. I find the process somewhat cathartic vs typing here in this thread. I can't read what I wrote because my handwriting is crap but it still helps me think.

From a trading standpoint, I've begun thinking about the POP aka, The Phantom of the Pits.

He has three rules:

1. Assume you are wrong when entering a trade. Let the market prove you correct. Never assume you are correct. Positions established must be removed unless proven correct.

2. Press your winners without exception. This means you must if possible add to winners.

3. A trader must know when and how to take profits based on his/her method/timeframe/style/instrument. (Paraphrased from the book)

The key point of rule three is there is no optimum way of taking profits. Each method has advantages and drawbacks. The trader must act in his/her best interest and within the confines of rules one and 2.

In light of these rules I've begun the following:
  • Entering trades with a single lot (My max is 3-5 depending on a couple of factors)
  • Looking to add to the trade once its gone in my direction some distance
  • Exiting the entire position at a predetermined measured move from entry zone

Over the last few days, I've had varying degrees of success with this. I sought the advice of a seasoned trader here on the forum whose advice to me was to find the method and frequency of adding that suited me. That scaling in and out was purely subjective. Another member PM'd me and told me I was on the right track, gave me some personal examples of his success (which I won't repeat here, most of you would not believe me if I told you what he said as his success using a scale in approach was/is far beyond what most of us would imagine is possible).

These last few days have seen a few larger than normal losses due to improper scaling in and some larger than normal winners due to scaling in.

The result was that yesterday, I was in a winning trade right out of the opening gate, my plan had been to add to this trade once it got going, however, I chickened out and closed it during the first pullback. Then price proceeded to climb to my measured move target some 60 ticks away after first presenting me with an opportunity to scale in. This would have been a wonderful trade had I not chickened out.

Last night in my paper journal. I wrote one thing: Tomorrow, my only job is to hold a trade past the first pull back and add to the trade somewhere in the pull back or HH or LL area.

Today, after a couple of small losers following rule 1, I entered a trade with a single lot, at this point I was down about half my daily loss limit. As price got going in my favor, I recognized I needed to hold and follow my plan from last night. So I did.

As price pulled back, thankfully it was a pretty small pullback, I endured that, and placed my buy stop at the higher high. Don't be afraid to buy the higher high or sell the lower low I once heard a very successful trader say. In a trend, just enter and let it ride. So I did.

Price took me in on my add on, continued going my way, then pulled back again. At this point, I was nervous and reluctant to add again so finished the trade with only the two units. However, I had an opportunity to add another unit and in the future, I'll try to put this one on as well.

Eventually price made it to my target area and traded through that zone by a few ticks, then reversed and spent the rest of the day trending the opposite direction. None of which I got because I quit at that point.

The net result, I went from being down half my daily limit to being positive around my daily average. A nice profit swing to be sure.

A major takeaway from these two days:

There are two:

1. Don't chicken out.

2. I learned where my add on will be risk free most of the time. It turns out when my second entry order was triggered, my blended entry was several ticks away from where I would put my stop. Which meant that from this point forward, my trade was completely and totally risk free. I would either earn a few ticks or a break even if I chose to give the trade a bit more breathing room. Which is what I did. I went BE and let it ride from there. As price got closer to my target, I started tightening up the stop by trailing the small swings on the chart, once it got within a few ticks, I trailed two trend bars back and that was it. Price filled my target and my day was done.

The trade was executed with near perfection. Almost by accident in some regards, the perfect add on was just random in terms of where I put it on, however, I now have a benchmark on where to look to add with regard to the number of profit ticks I need before I add on.

Its been a good day in more ways than this but I'm really pleased about the lessons I've learned over the last few days. I recognize and realize there is far more to learn but I know this one thing. If I lose small (rule 1) and win big (rule 2) my equity curve can't help but have a nice upward slope to it.

The only real wild card is rule three....where to take profits and for the most part, I have a consistent and repeatable method to do that. I just need to allow the trade time to fulfill that method.

Today's chart....losers are not plotted....I am interested in only remembering this winning trade as an example of what to do.....I already figured out why my losers didn't work so no point in rubbing it in here.


Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 GaryD 
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PandaWarrior View Post

2. Press your winners without exception.

What if that were your focus, and let it hit your breakeven if it wants to? Risk 7 ticks on one, 10 ticks on another, 12 ticks on the third. It moves hard, double up, and risk losing the whole trade to breakeven.

What would change if you broke even on it?

What would change if it ran?

 
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 PandaWarrior 
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GaryD View Post
What if that were your focus, and let it hit your breakeven if it wants to? Risk 7 ticks on one, 10 ticks on another, 12 ticks on the third. It moves hard, double up, and risk losing the whole trade to breakeven.

What would change if you broke even on it?

What would change if it ran?

All excellent questions. None of which I've answered yet. I'm just getting into this. But....

I think the correct response to all three are similar.

What happens if it breaks even? Oh well. Thats trading.

What happens if it runs? Wonderful, thats trading with the exception that if I can, I should add again. Keeping rule 1 in mind and following rule 2.

What remains to be seen is my emotional state if after waiting for a setup and trigger, I enter, press the trade and it ends up being BE. How will I feel? Will I want to revenge trade to make up for it? Enter next time with larger size initially? Chase the runner? Who knows? Only time will tell.

However, I am slowly becoming much more comfortable with the uncertainty of trading and the apparent random distribution of winners and losers. This is why I like rule one so much. It demands I enter small so the losses are small. And why rule 2 is so important. You win big when you win.

I forgot to mention I was reading a trader the other day whose win rate is around 25-30% but yet makes in the mid 6 figures every year. Why does he make money? He presses the winners. He loses with 1-3 units and wins with 5-10 units....I don't know how many lots are in the units but even if its only 1 lot per unit, the math still works.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 GaryD 
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PandaWarrior View Post
....and I have to embrace it just like trading....if I'm wrong, its not just a ten tick stop, its life or death. That freaks me out a bit.....but I'm learning slowly to be ok with it......slowly....

What if you trade like it doesn't matter, because we all die anyway?

OR,

What if you trade as if your health depended on it? (that one is deep.)


We trade for a lot of reasons, but trading just because "it is something to improve on", makes it more relaxed.

Forget about the outcome, follow what you know to do, and stop caring so much. Does it matter, really? Can you trade as if you were giving advice? I have a hard time doing that, we all do, but it smells of irony.

Please know that I am wishing you well.

None of it is worth risking your life, but no one ever said that is required. So how would you trade then?


 
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 PandaWarrior 
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GaryD View Post
What if you trade like it doesn't matter, because we all die anyway?

OR,

What if you trade as if your health depended on it? (that one is deep.)


We trade for a lot of reasons, but trading just because "it is something to improve on", makes it more relaxed.

Forget about the outcome, follow what you know to do, and stop caring so much. Does it matter, really? Can you trade as if you were giving advice? I have a hard time doing that, we all do, but it smells of irony.

Please know that I am wishing you well.

None of it is worth risking your life, but no one ever said that is required. So how would you trade then?


I have a theory born from my days in real estate. Buyers and or potential clients can smell desperation. They use it to drive a harder bargain than they otherwise would have attempted. So in the early days when I was desperate, I learned to conceal my fear and desperation much like an actor conceals his stage fright and performs anyway. I got good at not caring as this was the only way I could figure out how to close with conviction....like this particular sale/client/deal did not matter one bit......and I started closing more deals. I think people like dealing with those that display confidence.

In the same way, I think trading without caring about the money is the proper way to trade.....difficult to be sure but proper. It allows you to focus on the process as though you were teaching while trading.....something I did frequently in the real estate business. I spent a lot of time mentoring others and you must do it correctly when you are on stage like that.....in the process, I became much better at what I did....to the point of it being effortless....my eventual goal for trading.

And in some respects, my life (financial at least) does depend on my trading......therefore I must trade like it doesn't. Hows that for a paradox?

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 GaryD 
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PandaWarrior View Post

And in some respects, my life (financial at least) does depend on my trading......therefore I must trade like it doesn't. Hows that for a paradox?

I went through that, still not overly interested in reading about it, but it is here on futures.io (formerly BMT). That paradox, mixed with a low point on my life history, caused me to completely fuck up anything I knew about trading. And while I may not stand a chance, if there were any justice in the trading world, I would force the resulting understanding into you. lol!

My 10 minutes of fame...

 
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  #1632 (permalink)
 josh 
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As a new trader I would always (always) freak out when I got a 6 tick ES winner (~= 15 tick CL) and would close it immediately. Then I got used to the feeling and would allow myself to hold for 12 ticks, then 20, then 30 (these days I don't usually get a day trade larger than about that much). The idea of closing a trade at +6 ticks is laughable to me now, as I slowly broadened my comfort zone such that 6 ticks seemed like hardly worth the effort/risk.

In a similar way, I found scaling in to be VERY difficult when I first tried it. "Wait a minute, I'm going to increase my risk, and worsen my average?" But then after doing it a bit, it has become much easier. In fact, I scale into trades almost every day now, and even if I happen to get flat, I am often looking to get back in, and view the entire sequence as one position play, rather than thinking of a trade as being flat to flat.

I think scaling might be particularly hard for CL traders, as you guys often receive gratification sooner due to fast market movement, and it's much more tempting to be in, get your profit, and get flat. Scaling in requires a very different mindset, one of maximizing potential profit by simply having a position on, versus the "get out as soon as possible" mentality.

Have you tried entering with 2, and then working around the core position? The disadvantage to only opening with 1 is that if you get a solid move in your favor quickly and you reach a logical scale out point, you have the tough choice to get flat or sit through a retracement. If you have 2, at least you can pay for the trade and then an add that does not work out will not cost as much.

When I have problems adding, it's usually because I add at a disadvantageous price. The thing is that the add needs to be a place where you would be comfortable initiating a position; the fact that you are in the money on the initial position does not make it wise to add for the sake of adding, versus adding at a place where you would be okay initiating a new position.

The first key to adding successfully, IMO, is being good enough at gauging market state so that the adds have enough potential to justify the increased risk. A market that is rotating and balanced on any given day is not a market to add in. Better to go all in, and scale out or all out on those days. But if the market is out of balance enough that it has potential to run, then it makes sense. The second key IMO is to add early. Very often we will start small, and add large later, thinking that the movement in our favor justifies the risk. But I think a +1/2, +1/4, +1/4, or +1/2, +1/3, +1/6 approach may be wiser, to better the average and avoid adding too large when the rubber band has begun to stretch. Of course, the whole point of scaling in instead of going all in is that the trade working provides some clue (though it's an illusion much of the time) that it will continue to work in our favor, so adding too early negates the purpose of scaling in to begin with, so it is a tough balance.



PandaWarrior View Post
Another member PM'd me and told me I was on the right track, gave me some personal examples of his success (which I won't repeat here, most of you would not believe me if I told you what he said as his success using a scale in approach was/is far beyond what most of us would imagine is possible).

If you don't mind, would you humor me and post the short version? I'm always open to out of the box thinking, and if it's something I could hardly imagine, all the better!

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 GaryD 
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josh View Post
The second key IMO is to add early. Very often we will start small, and add large later, thinking that the movement in our favor justifies the risk. But I think a +1/2, +1/4, +1/4, or +1/2, +1/3, +1/6 approach may be wiser, to better the average and avoid adding too large when the rubber band has begun to stretch. Of course, the whole point of scaling in instead of going all in is that the trade working provides some clue (though it's an illusion much of the time) that it will continue to work in our favor, so adding too early negates the purpose of scaling in to begin with, so it is a tough balance.

Would quit mkaing me look bad? lol!

Yes, that makes sense. I am living with that as my main mind filter recently.

And, no, that does not make things feel any easier.

 
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  #1634 (permalink)
 josh 
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Briefly regarding POP's Rule 1: it is a very logical rule, but can be very hard to actually implement because it means you will usually take yourself out, instead of letting the market hit your predetermined stop. Sometimes this will turn out well, but others it will mean that you get fooled and get out of what turns out to be a winner. I asked FT71 about this and he said that he does not particularly agree with rule #1 for today's markets, because they are fundamentally different than they were back when POP was written. I agree with this for the most part. The thing is, if you analyze the market and make a decision on entry and risk, by altering that during a trade you are assuming that you are acting objectively based on new information, without much/any bias due to your position. My opinion is that simply having a position alters the bias enough that it will usually be better to stick with the view that was formed before the position was on. A large enough sample has to be examined to determine the approach that works best.

Sometimes you will get out and feel great because it would have stopped you out, and that's when you'll want to adopt Rule #1. Other times though, your judgement will be off due to bias, or due to randomness, and the trade would have worked out, and the feeling of taking off a winner that would not have hit the stop can be quite damaging.

So, if rule #1 is to be implemented, it must be done so by following POP's admonition to be willing to get back in. Sometimes this can lead to choppiness, and focus must be kept to ensure that you don't get long, short, long, short and chopped up. And, it can be difficult to get out, and be patient enough to wait to determine if a trade idea is still good, without just hopping back in 10 seconds later, costing commissions and probably worsening the price of the trade. So with either approach, patience must be exercised so that a trade idea has the opportunity to prove itself.

And I meant to say, thanks PW for discussing these topics on your thread--I find them some of the most important in trading. Once we know how to trade, figuring out how to maximize our effort without completely messing everything else up in the process is a real challenge, and something I am constantly working on. So thanks for talking about this stuff!!

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 GaryD 
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PandaWarrior View Post

What remains to be seen is my emotional state if after waiting for a setup and trigger, I enter, press the trade and it ends up being BE. How will I feel? Will I want to revenge trade to make up for it? Enter next time with larger size initially? Chase the runner? Who knows? Only time will tell.

No. You know now. The fear is, being wrong.




PandaWarrior View Post

I forgot to mention I was reading a trader the other day whose win rate is around 25-30% but yet makes in the mid 6 figures every year. Why does he make money? He presses the winners. He loses with 1-3 units and wins with 5-10 units....I don't know how many lots are in the units but even if its only 1 lot per unit, the math still works.

There is the example of what I just said above.

He does not give a fuck if he is wrong 3 of 4 trades. Why? The math works.

This comes from a guy who has thrown himself on his sword... Get cocky about it, to some degree. Not in trading boldly, or ignoring, or even just not prioritizing, RISK.

But in a way that allows you to 1) make the choices you believe in, and 2) ignore the ones you don't.

Do you know something that, right now, you could suggest in a spreadsheet that you KNEW was a good possibility?

And, assuming that you do, How many times would it need to be right?

Holy grailish talk, Brian. Maybe in my possibly on the edge of sanity manner of speaking... But my response to that is, So?


We put so much into it, because it is emotional. So, it is a given that we need to remove the emotion.

Man, we have a similar history. I melted online. So? If I knew everything myself I would give it to you. I don't. But I see something that makes me feel in you.

 
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 PandaWarrior 
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josh View Post
As a new trader I would always (always) freak out when I got a 6 tick ES winner (~= 15 tick CL) and would close it immediately. Then I got used to the feeling and would allow myself to hold for 12 ticks, then 20, then 30 (these days I don't usually get a day trade larger than about that much). The idea of closing a trade at +6 ticks is laughable to me now, as I slowly broadened my comfort zone such that 6 ticks seemed like hardly worth the effort/risk.

In a similar way, I found scaling in to be VERY difficult when I first tried it. "Wait a minute, I'm going to increase my risk, and worsen my average?" But then after doing it a bit, it has become much easier. In fact, I scale into trades almost every day now, and even if I happen to get flat, I am often looking to get back in, and view the entire sequence as one position play, rather than thinking of a trade as being flat to flat.

I think scaling might be particularly hard for CL traders, as you guys often receive gratification sooner due to fast market movement, and it's much more tempting to be in, get your profit, and get flat. Scaling in requires a very different mindset, one of maximizing potential profit by simply having a position on, versus the "get out as soon as possible" mentality.

Have you tried entering with 2, and then working around the core position? The disadvantage to only opening with 1 is that if you get a solid move in your favor quickly and you reach a logical scale out point, you have the tough choice to get flat or sit through a retracement. If you have 2, at least you can pay for the trade and then an add that does not work out will not cost as much.

When I have problems adding, it's usually because I add at a disadvantageous price. The thing is that the add needs to be a place where you would be comfortable initiating a position; the fact that you are in the money on the initial position does not make it wise to add for the sake of adding, versus adding at a place where you would be okay initiating a new position.

The first key to adding successfully, IMO, is being good enough at gauging market state so that the adds have enough potential to justify the increased risk. A market that is rotating and balanced on any given day is not a market to add in. Better to go all in, and scale out or all out on those days. But if the market is out of balance enough that it has potential to run, then it makes sense. The second key IMO is to add early. Very often we will start small, and add large later, thinking that the movement in our favor justifies the risk. But I think a +1/2, +1/4, +1/4, or +1/2, +1/3, +1/6 approach may be wiser, to better the average and avoid adding too large when the rubber band has begun to stretch. Of course, the whole point of scaling in instead of going all in is that the trade working provides some clue (though it's an illusion much of the time) that it will continue to work in our favor, so adding too early negates the purpose of scaling in to begin with, so it is a tough balance.




If you don't mind, would you humor me and post the short version? I'm always open to out of the box thinking, and if it's something I could hardly imagine, all the better!


As noted, I am a beginner at this although in theory I understand it quite well. POP advocates this: Enter small, testing the market, add as follows; 3:2:1. With the numbers representing units and not lots. Add progressively smaller as price moves further away from initialization price. Thereby reducing the negative effect of the rubber band snapping. Since I can't really do it like that due to account size constraints, I must work with what I have. That means I will enter with one, add a second and then a third if possible and there is sufficient room in my trade to justify adding the extra layer of risk.

CL is an instant gratification machine if you do it right. Nothing wrong with fixed targets of 20 or 30 ticks. That can represent many many swings throughout the day. However, my targets are starting to look like 40-70 ticks and inside that there will be at least one swing of at least 20 ticks many timea. However, it can run those same 40-70 ticks without pausing to breathe and it often does. In this scenario, simply buying a higher high or selling a lower low may be the only option to get in as the pullback entries or whatever other method one might use simply never materialize.

As to the trader I mentioned, I can only say this: In the last 6 months he said he had added to positions only 6 times....I'm now assuming he is swing trading for the most part but those 6 adds accounted for a mid 5 figure increase in his equity. On top of his other profitable trades. So assume somewhere in the upper 5 figures to low 6 figures for profit in the last 6 months. I realize this might be chump change for some, but for others, this is a really nice pay day. As it would be for me......

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 PandaWarrior 
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josh View Post
Briefly regarding POP's Rule 1: it is a very logical rule, but can be very hard to actually implement because it means you will usually take yourself out, instead of letting the market hit your predetermined stop. Sometimes this will turn out well, but others it will mean that you get fooled and get out of what turns out to be a winner. I asked FT71 about this and he said that he does not particularly agree with rule #1 for today's markets, because they are fundamentally different than they were back when POP was written. I agree with this for the most part. The thing is, if you analyze the market and make a decision on entry and risk, by altering that during a trade you are assuming that you are acting objectively based on new information, without much/any bias due to your position. My opinion is that simply having a position alters the bias enough that it will usually be better to stick with the view that was formed before the position was on. A large enough sample has to be examined to determine the approach that works best.

Sometimes you will get out and feel great because it would have stopped you out, and that's when you'll want to adopt Rule #1. Other times though, your judgement will be off due to bias, or due to randomness, and the trade would have worked out, and the feeling of taking off a winner that would not have hit the stop can be quite damaging.

So, if rule #1 is to be implemented, it must be done so by following POP's admonition to be willing to get back in. Sometimes this can lead to choppiness, and focus must be kept to ensure that you don't get long, short, long, short and chopped up. And, it can be difficult to get out, and be patient enough to wait to determine if a trade idea is still good, without just hopping back in 10 seconds later, costing commissions and probably worsening the price of the trade. So with either approach, patience must be exercised so that a trade idea has the opportunity to prove itself.

And I meant to say, thanks PW for discussing these topics on your thread--I find them some of the most important in trading. Once we know how to trade, figuring out how to maximize our effort without completely messing everything else up in the process is a real challenge, and something I am constantly working on. So thanks for talking about this stuff!!

You note I did not include that part of POP's rule in my original post. I think for the most part, in today's marketplace, you can simply decide how much you are going to risk to find out if the trade is valid. If you get taken out, oh well. I take rule one to mean this: Enter small so if wrong, I am wrong small. The remainder of the rule is not really relevant in my view....although this might change in time.

As to discussing this in my thread, its time to focus on winning. And this is how you win.....so yes, I'll discuss it more as I find things I want to discuss or remember.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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GaryD View Post
No. You know now. The fear is, being wrong.


There is the example of what I just said above.

He does not give a fuck if he is wrong 3 of 4 trades. Why? The math works.

This comes from a guy who has thrown himself on his sword... Get cocky about it, to some degree. Not in trading boldly, or ignoring, or even just not prioritizing, RISK.

But in a way that allows you to 1) make the choices you believe in, and 2) ignore the ones you don't.

I agree 100%


GaryD View Post
Do you know something that, right now, you could suggest in a spreadsheet that you KNEW was a good possibility?

And, assuming that you do, How many times would it need to be right?

Not sure what you are asking or suggesting here....


GaryD View Post
Holy grailish talk, Brian. Maybe in my possibly on the edge of sanity manner of speaking... But my response to that is, So?

I think its pretty darn close to the holy grail. How to lose small and win big.....age old wisdom. Implementation is the kicker.


GaryD View Post
We put so much into it, because it is emotional. So, it is a given that we need to remove the emotion.

I disagree. I think we need to work with the emotion. Recognize its there, and let it roll off our back like water off a ducks back.....or channel it some other way.....but elimination of emotion is impossible. See this blog post for more. The importance of emotion in trading. | traderhabits.com


GaryD View Post
Man, we have a similar history. I melted online. So? If I knew everything myself I would give it to you. I don't. But I see something that makes me feel in you.

Yeah I think its one reason why we keep crossing paths....success, failure, self examination, incessant obsessing over details.....its all there.....

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 iqgod 
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PandaWarrior View Post


One thing I've learned this last two weeks:

It does not matter one bit where you put the stop. There is a trade premise and the stop is how much you are willing to lose to find out if that premise is correct. End of story. There does not seem to be a benefit to a technical stop location at all.


I agree with this. The market's action evolves to compromise the majority - it gravitates to cause the most pain to the most number of participants - e.g. if everyone seeing "support" and is leaning towards the long side then the inevitable drop has to happen to hunt the stops below "support".

Its always staying ahead of the rate of change as it is hurled upon you, as fresh as ever since Jesse Livermore nay ever since the beginning of trading....

It would not be too much of a leap of faith to believe that the astute / experienced traders "know" where the stops would be (in the sense that experience tells them what the other traders are most likely to think) and initiate their counter-positions there.

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 iqgod 
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How to not chicken out?

I have a 10-tick stop and a 10-tick target but never hold for more than 6 - 8 ticks. Never.

Well, the answer is in the question, you may say - JUST DO IT! Just hold for those 10-ticks. I mean I need to do it, but am struggling here.

I am seeking something specific I can do to reinforce a habit of not moving stop and target.

To state it simply: Having large losing trades in the past makes me afraid to give up on winners and I rather accept piddling profits rather than losing the accumulated gains (which are not really big - they are 4 - 5 ticks after slippage).

Here it must be noted that I have practiced and my technique allows me to have a good win rate of 70%+ YET when real money is on the line I tend to not wait for the 10-tick winner but settle for less.

The answer is to of course be confident and take the heats of the pullbacks and allow either stop or target to be taken out.

But how to reinforce this loop.

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 GaryD 
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iqgod View Post
How to not chicken out?

I have a 10-tick stop and a 10-tick target but never hold for more than 6 - 8 ticks. Never.

Well, the answer is in the question, you may say - JUST DO IT! Just hold for those 10-ticks. I mean I need to do it, but am struggling here.

I am seeking something specific I can do to reinforce a habit of not moving stop and target.

To state it simply: Having large losing trades in the past makes me afraid to give up on winners and I rather accept piddling profits rather than losing the accumulated gains (which are not really big - they are 4 - 5 ticks after slippage).

Here it must be noted that I have practiced and my technique allows me to have a good win rate of 70%+ YET when real money is on the line I tend to not wait for the 10-tick winner but settle for less.

The answer is to of course be confident and take the heats of the pullbacks and allow either stop or target to be taken out.

But how to reinforce this loop.


SIM

 
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  #1642 (permalink)
 josh 
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iqgod View Post
Well, the answer is in the question, you may say - JUST DO IT! Just hold for those 10-ticks. I mean I need to do it, but am struggling here.

I am seeking something specific I can do to reinforce a habit of not moving stop and target.

If it's that hard to hold for 10 instead of 6-8, put the trade on, and walk away for 10 minutes, or set a sound that will trigger when the stop/target is hit, and just don't come back until you hear the sound.

But then, you have to have the willingness and discipline to actually walk away, which might just be harder than sitting there, depending on you.

So, unless you pay someone in advance to hold a gun to your head and force you to take the 10 ticks or to walk away, or the person will shoot you, then in the end you still have to "just DO it." You are a thinking person and sometimes the best way for a thinking person to approach these things is to turn off your brain, reach down and reaffirm that your balls are there and intact, and hang on for the ride. This is a risk game, and those who cannot accept risk will not get paid.

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  #1643 (permalink)
 podski 
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GaryD View Post
SIM

@iqgod,

@GaryD is right.. because we are trading with our minds and our bodies we need to physically move and actually practice change. Lots of the great thinkers of the past called what you are doing (and what I do by the way too !) "repetition compulsion" or "eternal recurrence".

The clear case of chickening out of trades either when in the green or in the red is due to anxiety that is getting the better of you. There is no doubt about this. Your body is telling you to hit the exit side of the DOM and .. well .. you do.

There is one reasn that this is relevant to this thread.

@PandaWarrior spoke in a Webinar about the 7 P's. It is a military term for
"Perfect Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance"
*or something like that ...

Now .... trading a few contracts of CL , ES , GC or indeed the FDAX is pretty stressful. However having someone shoot very hot metal at your face is even a tinch more stressful I would say.

SIM is the answer because your mind and your body get to learn how it is to hold through that pullback or indeed resist entering a trade on a fast moving candle. Both of which we all know make sense .. but ... knowing and doing are what we wrestle with.

SIM, Combine .. it's all the same. Doing it makes it feel right ..

p

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  #1644 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
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Two trades today. Both executed to near perfection. Second one I panicked and exited for two reasons.

1. At the beginning of the day, I had turned off my PnL on the DOM. Then later on, I had restarted my platform in the middle of the trading day and when I reloaded it, the PnL came back on. In the middle of the trade, I noticed it was flashing my pnl at me.....I knew this was not supposed to be happening and so that threw me a little bit,

2. Then I noticed I was above the money goal I had set for myself today. Instantly, I started thinking about closing the trade to make darn sure I would make at least that much for today. (Stupid is as stupid does at this point). So in a few nano seconds, I had this intense conversation with myself and the flight, fight or freeze impulse won out and I closed the trade.

Net result: I made my dollar goal for the day. Double my average. Nicely done. However, price went to my target more than 60 ticks away and 40 from my exit. I left another $1200 on the table with that one little piece of trade management.

An excellent example of why one should turn off the PnL. I was prepared to let this one run because after sitting forever waiting, it was behaving exactly the way I wanted it to in order to catch a nice runner.

Lesson learned. I have already saved my DOM settings this time around so that won't happen again.


Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 PandaWarrior 
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GaryD View Post
SIM

I mostly disagree with this. No amount of courage in sim will fix chickening out live. Sim is only for figuring how to do something. Mechanics mostly. Once or twice in sim, then back to live.

So I suggest moving to forex, trade minis or micros until the fear of losing is dealt with.

Either that or man up as they say and just do it.

Fear of losing is both real and misplaced. Trading is a losers game. Accept it and move on. Fight it and keep losing. As traders, we will fight this until we retire, in the meantime, best to try and accept it.

The winners are those that fall on the sword of acceptance and simply play the odds while losing small.

Trading crude oil with a 6-8 tick target and hoping to make money long term is a suckers bet. ES or ZN maybe. But CL? lets be real here.

If you trade many lots and you are very good at scalping, maybe. Otherwise better to look for at least 30-50 ticks.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 Disciple 
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Hi Pandawarrior

Great journal - hope its ok to comment here.


podski View Post


@PandaWarrior spoke in a Webinar about the 7 P's. It is a military term for
"Perfect Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance"
p

Love it - I think this should be used in school education.

@iqgod On the waiting for 10 points or not, sim or micro accounts... I found that once I started to understand what type of trader I am (1-5 positions a day trying for one larger move) then the rest started falling into place. Maybe 5 or 8 points (more trades per day with shorter goals) is how you are built. Maybe scalping but I cannot recommend this as I cannot do it except to drain any account I have. What target amount do you want to take profits at regularly? Can your style then be built around that? Need to adapt risk management, be aware of commissions but for me understanding how I am wired helped me work through this stuff. Find a target amount that works for you and start developing your plan around what comes naturally or intuitively. Its worth trying and at the very least you can try and rule it out if it does not work (which is a valuable step in growing as a trader).

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 PandaWarrior 
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Disciple View Post
Hi Pandawarrior

Great journal - hope its ok to comment here.



Love it - I think this should be used in school education.

@iqgod On the waiting for 10 points or not, sim or micro accounts... I found that once I started to understand what type of trader I am (1-5 positions a day trying for one larger move) then the rest started falling into place. Maybe 5 or 8 points (more trades per day with shorter goals) is how you are built. Maybe scalping but I cannot recommend this as I cannot do it except to drain any account I have. What target amount do you want to take profits at regularly? Can your style then be built around that? Need to adapt risk management, be aware of commissions but for me understanding how I am wired helped me work through this stuff. Find a target amount that works for you and start developing your plan around what comes naturally or intuitively. Its worth trying and at the very least you can try and rule it out if it does not work (which is a valuable step in growing as a trader).

The quote is actually, Prior Perfect Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 tigertrader 
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Why get out of trade with an inordinately small loser or winner, if the expected value of the trade is still good? You're simply locking in small losses and winners. You are not only risk averse, but loss averse. For an extremely intelligent person, there does not appear much thought involved in your trading. The execution of a trading plan is essential to profitable trading. Without a goal, without specific, well-articulated criteria, you cannot craft an executable trading plan, and you will find that you are just waffling and flailing about. Read Josh's posts and Brian's posts for practical advice on how to design and implement a profitable strategy. Risking 10 to make 10 is not one of them.

from my Spoo-nalysis post....

When implementing a strategic trade, a good compromise between profit maximization and loss mitigation can be achieved by balancing trade size along with a stop-loss, which when placed at a level that only an extreme event will trigger, will likely contain losses to a predetermined range, and also prevent getting stopped-out of a potential winner. If one is disciplined, maintaining a mental stop-loss level is preferable to an order pre-placed in the book, and available for all the bots to scan.

This strategy carries forward to trade management. Its always easier to find an excuse for getting out of your winners, than for getting out of your losers. At times, the best "next trade", is simply staying in the current trade. Which is why a trader needs a decision process for managing the expectation or expected value of the trade as well as the equity. What matters, I think, is the expected value of the trade at each moment, and balancing that against P&L and a margin of error to ensure, "staying in the game".

Short of electro-shock conditioning, I know of no other way than just to just keep doing it, till you can do it. And like Brian said, you have to do it with real money on the line. This is an emotional problem , not an intellectual problem, and SIM removes the emotion from the equation.










iqgod View Post
How to not chicken out?

I have a 10-tick stop and a 10-tick target but never hold for more than 6 - 8 ticks. Never.

Well, the answer is in the question, you may say - JUST DO IT! Just hold for those 10-ticks. I mean I need to do it, but am struggling here.

I am seeking something specific I can do to reinforce a habit of not moving stop and target.

To state it simply: Having large losing trades in the past makes me afraid to give up on winners and I rather accept piddling profits rather than losing the accumulated gains (which are not really big - they are 4 - 5 ticks after slippage).

Here it must be noted that I have practiced and my technique allows me to have a good win rate of 70%+ YET when real money is on the line I tend to not wait for the 10-tick winner but settle for less.

The answer is to of course be confident and take the heats of the pullbacks and allow either stop or target to be taken out.

But how to reinforce this loop.


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  #1649 (permalink)
 xelaar 
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tigertrader View Post
This is an emotional problem , not an intellectual problem, and SIM removes the emotion from the equation.

Excellent post! I went through this as well and would like to add someone had said that influenced my trading a lot: test the hell out of your method. No mental gimmicks will make you feel confident about your trading and putting money at risk, as very through testing and stats collecting and journaling will do. Test, test, test. And you will feel confident and very calm. Uncertainty in risk taking comes from uncertainty in what you are doing. Think about driving in rain fast. Most people are scared and drive slowly. Because they have no confidence in what they are doing. If you go to advanced driving courses and learn to drive on wet, snow, ice, you know how to manage the skid, what to expect and how to react. You are confident in your skills. And then you are not afraid when you get in conditions like that. Same in trading. Most people don't feel confident in their approach because they never put much efforts into testing and understanding of expectations. There is no fast cure for it. But practice makes perfect.

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 addchild 
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iqgod View Post
How to not chicken out?

I have a 10-tick stop and a 10-tick target but never hold for more than 6 - 8 ticks. Never.

Well, the answer is in the question, you may say - JUST DO IT! Just hold for those 10-ticks. I mean I need to do it, but am struggling here.

I am seeking something specific I can do to reinforce a habit of not moving stop and target.

To state it simply: Having large losing trades in the past makes me afraid to give up on winners and I rather accept piddling profits rather than losing the accumulated gains (which are not really big - they are 4 - 5 ticks after slippage).

Here it must be noted that I have practiced and my technique allows me to have a good win rate of 70%+ YET when real money is on the line I tend to not wait for the 10-tick winner but settle for less.

The answer is to of course be confident and take the heats of the pullbacks and allow either stop or target to be taken out.

But how to reinforce this loop.


Try forcing yourself into a different perspective, imagine (don't imagine, test!) what your trades would look like if you let them trade their full lifespan, (so remove the target, and let them all trade to their stops) and try to solve the problem from a different angle. You will likely learn there is a lot more wiggle room than you are anticipating.



.
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 tigertrader 
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I find it quite ironic that @iqgod made this post on Brian's thread. It wasn't all that long ago, that I used to have this very same discussion with Brian. I used to get extremely frustrated, because I knew Brian was a very bright guy, and that he understood that his methodology was far from optimal. And I also knew he was a really great guy, so I really wanted to see him make money.

I used to tell him ( in no uncertain terms) that he would never be profitable if he continued do what made him feel comfortable, rather than what was the correct thing to do - and that he needed to reprogram his behavior. Which is exactly, what I think he has accomplished. I read his reply to the OP's post, and it was spot on. However, his transformation did not take place overnight.

In Brian's case, he knew that he was doing certain things incorrectly, (and I was always kind enough to point them out to him). But he wasn't emotionally ready to stop what he was doing wrong, and change his behavior. He needed to confront the challenge head-on, in his own way. And, through trial-and-error and perseverance, he appears to have accomplished this goal.

Trading cannot only be a negative game financially, but emotionally. The highs are high, and lows are low, but the highs never seem to reach the same heights , that the lows sink to. Trading is full of such asymmetries that make it an emotionally negative sum preposition. The problem is that human nature does not operate to maximize gain, but rather to maximize the chance of a gain. The desire to maximize the number of winning trades (or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. And the market is quick to reinforce this tendency; as most small profits often tend to vanish, the market teaches you to cash them in before they get away.

Of course, in the short run, this makes the trader, feel like a winner. He is enjoying a success rate, with a lot of winning trades and small losers, but in the long run he hasn't shown a profit. Interestingly, some of my biggest months P&L wise, have been accompanied by my lowest winning percentages. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic. Quite simply, its not important whether you are long or short, but how much, and for how long, you are long or short.

Taking premature profits is an attempt to make current positions more likely to succeed, to the severe detriment of long term performance. It is also quite a normal tendency. The St. Petersburg Paradox teaches us that people consistently prefer to lock in a sure win rather than accept a gamble with a higher expected payoff. These evidently instinctive human tendencies, contain more than a drop of poison for the trader who cuts his winners short. It in fact, prohibits him from attaining profitability. This reality alone, should provide any trader, in his right mind, the motivation to resist the temptation to abbreviate his winners.

That being said, you need to develop a trading plan, whose criteria, will lead you to profitability, which includes:a realistic profit expectation, based on current volatility and type of day(range, trend). ATR, ADR, SD, value areas, will help you to determine optimal risk reward parameters. Only then, can you confront your problem head-on.

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  #1652 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
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Scratch day...


Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1653 (permalink)
 PandaWarrior 
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tigertrader View Post
I used to tell him ( in no uncertain terms) that he would never be profitable if he continued do what made him feel comfortable, rather than what was the correct thing to do - and that he needed to reprogram his behavior.

I was usually pissed off at @tigertrader after one of these exchanges.....I still am a little bit...not really but it was very uncomfortable for someone to tell me I was doing something wrong and to reprogram myself without giving specifics as to what to do exactly. I am not a person that grasps hidden meanings well. And @tigertrader seemed to often have hidden meanings....like the truth was hiding in plain sight but I couldn't see it.

Frustration was very high at this point. I knew I needed to change something but couldn't figure out what it was and He wouldn't tell me clearly. I nearly blacklisted him from my thread. I'm glad I didn't. I am still working on stuff to be sure, but feel I am finally on the right track.

Some of this you need to come to the realization on your own. Other stuff you can be taught. But the teaching can't be done effectively until you are actually ready to learn.....and we rarely are ready to learn when we say we are...

I think it was Al Brooks that said "sometimes you just have to hold your nose and enter". That seems to be true 100% of the time.

Think about the 95% that fail. What is the classic wisdom taught to the masses? Think about the so called truths you think you know. Write them down on a piece of paper. Then ask yourself, "what if I did the opposite"? What would happen? Write this down. Really think about it. Answer the questions......

What if you sold support instead of buying it? What if you never went break even? What if you never trailed your stop until you would rather be in a trade the opposite direction? What if you scaled in instead of out? What if you tripled your stop. What if you quit worrying about your homework, your bias and just went with the flow. What if you could never use indicators again? What if you put your entry where your stop would otherwise go? What if you took profits where others are just getting in? What if there were no stops and no targets allowed, you had to physically push the button to get out. How would this change your thought process? What if your broker would only allow you one trade a day. What would you do differently?

What if?

I'm not saying you should do all those things, I am saying you should think about them in regards to how YOU trade.

A trade plan is made up of three parts:

1. A defined edge for entry. you do have one correct?
2. A defined edge for exit for both profit and losses. I call this risk and profit management. One that is based on something other than,OMG, I think I need to get out!!!!! You have this correct?
3. A defined edge for money management. (this does not mean your stop placement) If you don't know what money management is, time to stop trading and figure it out.

Of the three, 2 and 3 are the most important. The entry can be random if you do 2&3 correct, you will make money.

If you do not have a method that you can categorically lean on for all three aspects of the trading plan, you shouldn't be trading at all. A lack of any one of these three will cause you to constantly second guess yourself and you will end up taking 6 ticks when you should have had 60. Or loosing 60 ticks when you should have lost 6.

This is a losers game. Your job is to figure out how to lose the least and maximize not your opportunity for gain but to maximize the actual gains you find yourself in.......like @tigertrader said, its all about HOW MUCH and HOW LONG you are long or short.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1654 (permalink)
 xelaar 
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I think what fails most traders, is not lack of intellect, or even patience, or even discipline, but the unstoppable desire to be right, to prevail. This makes them keep doing thing they think right, and continue the search for confirmation of their rightness. There are two options in market: be right or take money. Amazingly most people prefer to be right. Being humble is a half way to success!

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 PandaWarrior 
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This week I signed up for a gym membership. Something I thought I would never do. But since I must walk to live, and necessity being the mother of many things, I refuse to walk 30 minutes a day in the Arizona heat during the summer. So to avoid the 115+ degree heat, I join a gym.

In a weird twist, I had to decide which one to go to. The cheap one 5.5 miles away or the expensive one less than 2 miles away? I used my trading skills and figured out which one had the most risk of neglect. In other words, which one was I most likely to go to? Further, what was the monetary cost between the two.

As it turns out, the close one that costs more money won. Two reasons. It was more likely I would go there, and the cost differential was about the same after factoring in the cost of fuel to drive 11 miles round trip to the gym plus the 20 minutes or so each way vs 5 minutes away and less than 3 miles round trip. Add to that the first month was mostly free and it was a no brainer.

The cheap one was the cool place....huge, lots of fancy machines, great parking, etc, this is where I wanted to go. But the right choice was the closer one.....just like trading, often what we want to do and what we should do are complete opposite of each other.

Healthwise I continue to make baby steps. I've eliminated most sugar. Not hard mentally or emotionally but near impossible if you buy anything in a package. I've spent more time reading labels than anyone should ever have to spend. Why can't food manufactures just do the right thing instead of poisoning us with all those chemicals they put in food these days?

That being said, I have found some stuff I like without sugar. Gradually changing my diet and my family's' diet. No soda in 6 weeks, (although I would kill for an ice cold coca cola over ice in a real glass right now!) no fried food in 6 weeks, very little animal product, one pizza, two burritos, one breakfast burrito, no milk, tiny amount of cheese, one tiny ice cream cone from DQ and some of the most incredible dark chocolate with chilies in it.....this has been the extent of my "cheating" in six weeks.

I've added a couple of supplements to my regimen due to the suggestion of a friend here on the forum with regard to my heart health and I've had no episodes since the first one. No angina or anything like that.....so far so good.

Next of course is the gym to really get dialed in on the cardio stuff but at the same time, I need to rebuild my upper body strength. Trading does not lend itself to good physical conditioning and the cardiac incident seems to have left my arms and shoulders somewhat weaker. Not sure about this but it feels like and so I need to do something about it.

I've lost about half of the weight I need to lose. I suspect the next half will be much more difficult. This is my goal for the rest of the year. To get back in shape physically for the first time in probably 10-12 years.

At the gym, I intend to hire a trainer, come up with a plan and then journal it daily. If its not to much of a pain in the rear, I'll put it up here on the thread at least weekly.

I'm also mentoring a couple of traders. I like this a lot. It gives me a creative outlet, provides a sense of purpose beyond myself, and at least one of them has offered to pay me....not in the traditional sense but instead a trip to Italy next summer. We'll see about how that works out but I like the idea very much!

Now its time to help my kiddo with her end of school science project.....

cheers

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #1656 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
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west palm beach florida usa
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
This week I signed up for a gym membership. Something I thought I would never do. But since I must walk to live, and necessity being the mother of many things, I refuse to walk 30 minutes a day in the Arizona heat during the summer. So to avoid the 115+ degree heat, I join a gym.

In a weird twist, I had to decide which one to go to. The cheap one 5.5 miles away or the expensive one less than 2 miles away? I used my trading skills and figured out which one had the most risk of neglect. In other words, which one was I most likely to go to? Further, what was the monetary cost between the two.

As it turns out, the close one that costs more money won. Two reasons. It was more likely I would go there, and the cost differential was about the same after factoring in the cost of fuel to drive 11 miles round trip to the gym plus the 20 minutes or so each way vs 5 minutes away and less than 3 miles round trip. Add to that the first month was mostly free and it was a no brainer.

The cheap one was the cool place....huge, lots of fancy machines, great parking, etc, this is where I wanted to go. But the right choice was the closer one.....just like trading, often what we want to do and what we should do are complete opposite of each other.

Healthwise I continue to make baby steps. I've eliminated most sugar. Not hard mentally or emotionally but near impossible if you buy anything in a package. I've spent more time reading labels than anyone should ever have to spend. Why can't food manufactures just do the right thing instead of poisoning us with all those chemicals they put in food these days?

That being said, I have found some stuff I like without sugar. Gradually changing my diet and my family's' diet. No soda in 6 weeks, (although I would kill for an ice cold coca cola over ice in a real glass right now!) no fried food in 6 weeks, very little animal product, one pizza, two burritos, one breakfast burrito, no milk, tiny amount of cheese, one tiny ice cream cone from DQ and some of the most incredible dark chocolate with chilies in it.....this has been the extent of my "cheating" in six weeks.

I've added a couple of supplements to my regimen due to the suggestion of a friend here on the forum with regard to my heart health and I've had no episodes since the first one. No angina or anything like that.....so far so good.

Next of course is the gym to really get dialed in on the cardio stuff but at the same time, I need to rebuild my upper body strength. Trading does not lend itself to good physical conditioning and the cardiac incident seems to have left my arms and shoulders somewhat weaker. Not sure about this but it feels like and so I need to do something about it.

I've lost about half of the weight I need to lose. I suspect the next half will be much more difficult. This is my goal for the rest of the year. To get back in shape physically for the first time in probably 10-12 years.

At the gym, I intend to hire a trainer, come up with a plan and then journal it daily. If its not to much of a pain in the rear, I'll put it up here on the thread at least weekly.

I'm also mentoring a couple of traders. I like this a lot. It gives me a creative outlet, provides a sense of purpose beyond myself, and at least one of them has offered to pay me....not in the traditional sense but instead a trip to Italy next summer. We'll see about how that works out but I like the idea very much!

Now its time to help my kiddo with her end of school science project.....

cheers

Excellent decision to start training. You won't regret it. Try to find a way to enjoy it and turn it into something fun, instead of seeing it as drudgery. It's a great feeling to see steady improvements in health and fitness.
I'm sure you'll find lots of healthy foods you can enjoy as well, as you continue to improve your diet. Change is always a bit tough at first, but you'll adapt to it very quickly I'm sure. Your body gave you a wake up call..and you've done the smart thing by altering your lifestyle .

Good for you!

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 tgibbs 
Temecula, CA
 
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lancelottrader View Post
Excellent decision to start training. You won't regret it. Try to find a way to enjoy it and turn it into something fun, instead of seeing it as drudgery. It's a great feeling to see steady improvements in health and fitness.
I'm sure you'll find lots of healthy foods you can enjoy as well, as you continue to improve your diet. Change is always a bit tough at first, but you'll adapt to it very quickly I'm sure. Your body gave you a wake up call..and you've done the smart thing by altering your lifestyle .

Good for you!

Making the gym fun and interesting is tough, I found going with buddies and setting goals helped me stick with it for about a year. Then I started going to a rock climbing gym and I'm all about it. I don't get bored like I used to in the regular gym. I also don't get my legs worked like they probably should but I have horses at home for that. Still it all depends on how you climb as to whether you get cardio or just strength building. Just an idea to through out there for everyone. Good luck panda!

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 Silver Dragon 
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PandaWarrior View Post
No soda in 6 weeks, (although I would kill for an ice cold coca cola over ice in a real glass right now!)

Hardest thing I ever did was to quit drinking coca cola. Its now been 7 years since my last Coke. It took me a year to stop drinking it. Had a three step process - stop drinking it at home then stop drinking it at work and finally stop drinking at lunch and when I went out to eat. The last one was the hardest. Its one of the best things I have ever done for my health. My energy level increased and I stopped feeling so sluggish all the time. Although, I still get cravings a couple times a year. I dont think that will ever go away. Its so tempting to get just one... Just for the taste and to feel the burn of a Coke with no ice in the morning. The stuff is addicting.

Robert

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  #1659 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
This week I signed up for a gym membership. Something I thought I would never do. But since I must walk to live, and necessity being the mother of many things, I refuse to walk 30 minutes a day in the Arizona heat during the summer. So to avoid the 115+ degree heat, I join a gym.

In a weird twist, I had to decide which one to go to. The cheap one 5.5 miles away or the expensive one less than 2 miles away? I used my trading skills and figured out which one had the most risk of neglect. In other words, which one was I most likely to go to? Further, what was the monetary cost between the two.

As it turns out, the close one that costs more money won. Two reasons. It was more likely I would go there, and the cost differential was about the same after factoring in the cost of fuel to drive 11 miles round trip to the gym plus the 20 minutes or so each way vs 5 minutes away and less than 3 miles round trip. Add to that the first month was mostly free and it was a no brainer.

The cheap one was the cool place....huge, lots of fancy machines, great parking, etc, this is where I wanted to go. But the right choice was the closer one.....just like trading, often what we want to do and what we should do are complete opposite of each other.

You made an analogy between trading and an everyday activity or pursuit in your first few paragraphs. I think anyone who has traded for an extended period of time inevitably, participates in this same “exercise” at one time or another. Personally, I don’t go a day without doing it, especially if it is some kind of performance related activity. I’ve mentally drawn comparisons to trading with; driving in traffic, raising children, various sports, chess, relationships, business start-ups and coincidentally working out.

Pragmatically speaking, its a very good habit to fall into. Not only recognizing the parallels in the activities, but the actual participation in the activities themselves. Henry Carsten refers to this phenomena as “Second Order Immersion”. Immersion is a necessary path to expertise that can be augmented and accelerated by creating a 'Second Order Immersion' as a feedback loop to enhance, expand and deepen a primary immersion. It adds dimensionality and nuance to the primary expertise. For example: A trader immerses himself purposely in gaining trading expertise. At the same time the trader immerses himself in a hobby - his Second Order Immersion. As he mindfully immerses himself in his hobby, he consciously relates its lessons back to trading in such a way that a multidimensional and additive feedback loop is created: Insights and perspectives from the hobby are routinely used to provide fresh insights and perspectives into trading.

The majority of people that join health clubs quit within 6 months. Would it be fair to say that 5% continue to train while the remaining 95% don’t make it. New traders and people that are new to training both experience a growth curve. They have to experiment with new and different techniques and methodologies till they find one that is effective. Lots of time figuring out a personal style and an edge, honing their skills, and carving out modest gains. Growth is tedious at first, but through patience and discipline, they eventually increase their size and eventually they reach an inflection point, where gains breakout - some making more gain than others. Of course, its not a linear path- there are good days and bad days. On the good days they press and move up in size, and on the bad days they're in and out.

For those who work-out, its important to have an effective routine and its important to realize when that routine ceases to be effective anymore. Has my body become resistant to growth? For those who trade, they need to ask themselves, what is my methodology and when do I stop using it. Have the markets or the regime changed? Those who fail to self-correct in either endeavor, will cease to make further progress.

So, all you have to do is apply the principles you learned trading, to your training. Good luck in your latest endeavor, and keep up the good work in the former.

Now give me another, rep. No pain, no gain!

BTW: I don't lift weights often, but when I do, I do 12oz. curls (XX).

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  #1660 (permalink)
 Disciple 
Hervey Bay Qld Australia
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
This week I signed up for a gym membership. Something I thought I would never do. But since I must walk to live, and necessity being the mother of many things,

Lifestyle, health and weight can also be the mother of many things. I am recovcering after a prolapse disc and the pain was like nothing like I have ever felt before. It has taken 6 months and now to strengthen my back I need to hit the gym. It seems that after 40 things start breaking down lol

Whatever you can do to keep things working well and to avoid pain - do it. The gym may be a hassle but to have complications that can take away mobility foe me makes the gym option an easy one.

Good on you and I wish that you hold the mother of many things at bay.

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  #1661 (permalink)
 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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Brian,

I was born into a holistic lifestyle. My mother had cancer and was given less than a year to live, so she decided if she was going to die anyway she would try something completely different. She went hard core natural. That was before I was born, and she made it another 45+ years.

Any change is possible. Finding the right motivation is sometimes the challenge. Here are some thoughts;

My wife used to order a series, like "24" or "X-Files", and watch them on a treadmill at home. Find television programs that you enjoy, get their schedules online, and then schedule your gym visits so that you can watch them while on some cardio machine.

If your gym offers a yoga class, sign up and go a few times. It is a lot harder than it looks, but still low impact.

Go to you local natural foods megastore, and go down every aisle as if it were an adventure, buying whatever seems interesting. Fruits or vegetables you have never tried, or baked chips, whole grain breads, Flax Milk, seaweeds (I used to eat dulse right out of the bag), etc. We use all different flavors of hummus instead of sour cream or cheese based dips.

Keep an assortment of juices to give you some variety and reduce the coke cravings some. My fridge stays stocked with coconut water (without sugar), V8 with Lime, Simply Apple, Bolthouse Farms Carrot, Acai with Yerba Mate, and a gallon jug of water that I sometimes just carry around (exercise and hydration? That one is tougher trading as it requires a lot of breaks, but the empty jugs can be resourceful if one were that intense. Not me, of course...)

I have been vegetarian for nearly 30 years, and there is a vegetarian version of almost anything at Whole Foods Store List By State | Whole Foods Market (but nowadays at most major grocery stores). Some of it is crap and can turn someone off that idea quickly. I have tried nearly everything out there. Try to Morningstar Farms Ribs (in any grocery), the Quorn Naked Cutlets (tougher to find), the Tofurky Kielbasa (usually in the produce section for some reason), or the Beyond Meat Chicken-Free Strips. Those are all worth eating.


 
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 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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That was great, will show my wife, albeit with great caution and an exit strategy.

Summarize it as an analogy to traders.

Edit: Please

 
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  #1664 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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GaryD View Post
That was great, will show my wife, albeit with great caution and an exit strategy.

Summarize it as an analogy to traders.

Edit: Please

In life as well as in trading;

often times, the problem is right in front of us, but we can't see it...or won't admit to it -tt

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 xelaar 
prague, czech republic
 
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GaryD View Post
Brian,

I was born into a holistic lifestyle. My mother had cancer and was given less than a year to live, so she decided if she was going to die anyway she would try something completely different. She went hard core natural. That was before I was born, and she made it another 45+ years.

Any change is possible. Finding the right motivation is sometimes the challenge. Here are some thoughts;

My wife used to order a series, like "24" or "X-Files", and watch them on a treadmill at home. Find television programs that you enjoy, get their schedules online, and then schedule your gym visits so that you can watch them while on some cardio machine.

If your gym offers a yoga class, sign up and go a few times. It is a lot harder than it looks, but still low impact.

Go to you local natural foods megastore, and go down every aisle as if it were an adventure, buying whatever seems interesting. Fruits or vegetables you have never tried, or baked chips, whole grain breads, Flax Milk, seaweeds (I used to eat dulse right out of the bag), etc. We use all different flavors of hummus instead of sour cream or cheese based dips.

Keep an assortment of juices to give you some variety and reduce the coke cravings some. My fridge stays stocked with coconut water (without sugar), V8 with Lime, Simply Apple, Bolthouse Farms Carrot, Acai with Yerba Mate, and a gallon jug of water that I sometimes just carry around (exercise and hydration? That one is tougher trading as it requires a lot of breaks, but the empty jugs can be resourceful if one were that intense. Not me, of course...)

I have been vegetarian for nearly 30 years, and there is a vegetarian version of almost anything at Whole Foods Store List By State | Whole Foods Market (but nowadays at most major grocery stores). Some of it is crap and can turn someone off that idea quickly. I have tried nearly everything out there. Try to Morningstar Farms Ribs (in any grocery), the Quorn Naked Cutlets (tougher to find), the Tofurky Kielbasa (usually in the produce section for some reason), or the Beyond Meat Chicken-Free Strips. Those are all worth eating.



Thats fantastic, thanks!

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  #1666 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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@xelaar - I'm somewhat reticent to ask, but what is a "boy plunger"?

BTW: Have you ever seen Rennie Trossman play(guitar) in Prague?

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 xelaar 
prague, czech republic
 
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tigertrader View Post
@xelaar - I'm somewhat reticent to ask, but what is a "boy plunger"?

BTW: Have you ever seen Rennie Trossman play(guitar) in Prague?

Well, it's how they called Jessie Livermore back in the day. Not that I want any of his karma, he ended badly, but I am fascinated by him.

Probably not, I go for Jazz once in awhile but not a hardcore fan.

Trade to live. Not live to trade.
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 tigertrader 
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xelaar View Post
Well, it's how they called Jessie Livermore back in the day. Not that I want any of his karma, he ended badly, but I am fascinated by him.

Probably not, I go for Jazz once in awhile but not a hardcore fan.

From Victor Niederhoffer:

One walked past the Sherry Netherlands hotel tonight where the boy wonder, Jesse Livermore, took his life. The fact that The Reminiscences of a Stock Operator is considered one of the best books on investments ever written is guaranteed to happen. Anyone who follows his advice and example is 100% certain to go broke. His pyramiding, leveraging and vig paid were each in themselves 100% certain to cause his entire stake to go to the stronger hands and flexions and top feeders like the "banks". Naturally the book is recommended as the bible for new traders to read. I am chagrined when people come up to me and say that aside from Reminiscences, their favorite book is edspec. Fortuitously, I believe that none of the other authors on this site have had that horrible experiences. Nevertheless, just walking by the hotel, and seeing the models from Fifth avenue that the boy wonder wined and dined on his yacht walk by, just as leggy and beautiful as in his day 100 years ago, made me shudder. I saw a balding man dressed in nautical attire and a top hat exiting the hotel and I whisked Aubrey away and changed my sweater as soon as I got home.

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 xelaar 
prague, czech republic
 
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Jessie was a gambler, that is what put him down.

Trade to live. Not live to trade.
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 PandaWarrior 
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Slow day, two real opportunities, maximized one, short sheeted the other, still a good day money wise.

Off to greet the returning troops on board the Marine Air Base today. A friends son is returning home from his overseas tour and we're going to go show our support with them. Should be fun.


Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


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 Superdoug3 
Vernon, BC, Canada
 
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for U trekies "risk is our business" - Risk is our Business - YouTube

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 PandaWarrior 
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Sideways with a single directional movement. Out of patience. I'm tired as I didn't sleep to well last night. So done for the day.

Last trade I scaled into three times, missed a fill at the top of the move down, so ended up with a much less profitable trade than I was looking for. Otherwise, a huge day for me. As it was, I ended with a nice profit after two trade sequences.....

I'm trading less and making more money. Scaling in is making the difference as well as holding longer.....both essential for longer term success I think.


Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 iqgod 
Market Wizard
Mumbai, India
 
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Superdoug3 View Post
for U trekies "risk is our business" - Risk is our Business - YouTube

Hereby announcing that I finally allowed my ten tick target to be hit (6E) - a first in the past few months.


I imprinted @tigertrader's advice, and also actually followed @josh's advice 'this is a risk game and those who take risk get paid' - the funny part was I actually checked and rechecked that my ba__s were in place (LOL imagine a trader in position groping himself) but seriously this was a click moment for me.



In a sudden rush of experiencing it instead of simply philosophizing it:

Whenever I play defensively I miss every opportunity by not entering because I am trying not to lose money.

Whenever I stop playing my game I lose money. I stop playing my game when I take four ticks out of a trade that has an average expectancy of 10 ticks.

Most importantly are the "why?"s

If I am missing stuff it becomes a stressor. Solution: To counteract that stressor I am simply playing my game as defined in my plan.

Risk management and patience are like north pole and south pole - the constant struggle is with uncertainty which makes (used to make?) me jump the rules - e.g. if I am wrong with timing then patience takes on a slightly different context in an early entry rather on a perfect entry. Solution: Every time I am not playing a trade for its maximum value I am going to revisit my original premise as to why I am in the first place. This should give me more staying power.

The early entry part especially: Its easy to say to myself in hindsight that I should have waited. Perhaps I will in the future but that is countering price risk with information risk. However assuming I enter a tad bit early and feel trapped then what?

I keep stifling my self, seeing the position moving against me towards an MAE that I already can anticipate, (can I take off the position and reenter again at the correct point - sure I can, but that is for another post!).

Now this is important: The moment such a position jumps from red to green after what seemed like eternity I see the escape route! The exit! That is where I start taking it lightly (whereas I should be doing the opposite - I should be HOLDING now that the position I have built up is finally working). Loss aversion is the demon here and as @xelaar and @PandaWarrior said, it is best extinguished by perfect practice and knowing the market and my setups to the point that I no longer fear loss aversion because losses then become part of my winning strategy!

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 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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iqgod View Post
Hereby announcing that I finally allowed my ten tick target to be hit (6E) - a first in the past few months.

Next up: 15/25/35

It is tough @iqgod, you have heard me complain about it. But I am leaning towards being right less than 50% of the time. Here was my big trade of the day. And I felt my heart race, I tasted adrenaline in my mouth. But, it is possible. And, truth be told, I closed the last contract early, I have no idea why, but it is still an every day push to do the right things.

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 PandaWarrior 
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GaryD View Post
Next up: 15/25/35

It is tough @iqgod, you have heard me complain about it. But I am leaning towards being right less than 50% of the time. Here was my big trade of the day. And I felt my heart race, I tasted adrenaline in my mouth. But, it is possible. And, truth be told, I closed the last contract early, I have no idea why, but it is still an every day push to do the right things.

Current win rate: <32%. Current Equity Curve Slope. >45%

I am happy.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 PandaWarrior 
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iqgod View Post
Hereby announcing that I finally allowed my ten tick target to be hit (6E) - a first in the past few months.

Nicely done....

Now in the spirit of "what have you done for me lately", what's next? 15 ticks? How about 20?

Even better, how about adding a single lot at +10 and letting it all run to +30? Now you're on the path to winning!

Regardless, congratulations on a win. Feels nice to finally get something positive done.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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When you sit down to trade:

@iqgod,

are you relaxed,

or are you anxious?

are you only afraid of losing money,

or are you also afraid of failing?

do you expect a positive outcome,

but get frustrated when it disappoints?


embrace trading as a challenge,

and focus on-the-moment

but, do not put pressure on yourself to make money

prioritize the process, and not the outcome

once you have the methodology down,

you can focus on the outcome that the methodology was intended to produce.

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  #1678 (permalink)
 Patrick S 
Raleigh NC
 
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My Friend Panda has been bustin my stones for the past year. At first I thought it was because he was just a major Dinkus Head! Of Course that is not the case. He sees himself in me. He sees the mistakes I make as similar issues he used to suffer with and it was @tigertrader who was bustin his stones. I wonder who was crackin on tiger trader in his younger days?
Thanks also goes out to @iqgod for sharing his honesty. Sometimes I think you guys with the red hash tag have arrived and are confident money making machines. Keep posting brother, You are helping me.

If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten.
Celebrate because you executed your edge. Not because you won.
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 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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Patrick S View Post
My Friend Panda has been bustin my stones for the past year. At first I thought it was because he was just a major Dinkus Head! Of Course that is not the case. He sees himself in me. He sees the mistakes I make as similar issues he used to suffer with and it was @tigertrader who was bustin his stones. I wonder who was crackin on tiger trader in his younger days?
Thanks also goes out to @iqgod for sharing his honesty. Sometimes I think you guys with the red hash tag have arrived and are confident money making machines. Keep posting brother, You are helping me.

Barry Lind, Leo Melamed, and Tom Dittmer, were among my early mentors. Fast-forward to today, and my inclusion in Victor Niederhoffer's "spec-list" has allowed me access to the personal musings of some of the sharpest minds in trading. I am always reticent to post there, because the bar has been set so high by the other members.

Critical thinking, self-examination, and passion have always been an integral part of my approach to trading. I used to make copies of my trading cards at the end of the day, and bring the copies home to analyze them (trade-by-trade) from memory.

While a passion for trading is a prerequisite for success, it can't be a "blind passion". One theme that I picked up from Victor is Bacon's Principle of "ever changing cycles". Bacon's philosophy lead me to constantly question if my methodology is optimally effective given the current market regime, or has it been "played out." Always ask yourself, if you could be trading better - remaining flexible is the key. If your methodology fails to work or it stops working, change it.

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 PandaWarrior 
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No need for charts today. I fat fingered an entry....well not really....what happened is I had a resting order to scale in, got stopped out on the first bit and forgot to pull the resting orders. Then price chopped around for a bit, I got in again, then the resting order was triggered, of course I no longer wanted that order there and my blended entry was in the wrong place, I moved the stop for the whole thing to -10 and got hit.

Combine that with a couple of smaller losers early and I am done for the day....

Not a good way to strike out....no problem losing the right way...but losing because your eyes are closed while swing the bat is just stupid....I know things like this happen once in awhile but they make you feel like a total idiot when they do....

Anyway, on to other things.

I have an appointment with a trainer tomorrow. Not really looking forward to this. All these trainer type dudes all seem so freaking gung ho about getting you to Mr Universe ASAP. I had to remind him to take a breath, dial it back a bit and take baby steps. After all, I am middle aged white male, unaccustomed to intense physical activity. To make it worse, when I walked in the place, all the 20 something alpha males were in front of the wall length mirror preening like a bunch of peacocks. In my mind I said, "just you wait, in 20 years you'll be back in here looking like me begging someone looking just like you do now to fix your problems". Time is the ultimate equalizer.

I've spent more time in the hospital in the last month with my brother, my dad and mom and of course myself, than I care to admit. The docs in the ER are accusing us of having our family reunion there. Last night I told the doc it was a potluck dinner and why didnt she bring something.....she was from India and I think the potluck dinner thing went right over her head. She just stared at me like I was from Mars. The ER staff and our family had a good laugh at her expense.

Its gotten so bad I now have a shoulder bag with snacks, hand sanitizer, something to read and a spare phone charger all ready to go....if its at night, I tuck my 9MM in the bag along with the rest and I'm ready to head out in 2 minutes or less......my parents are working on getting into Scripps in San Diego and hopefully find out what's really wrong with them....they are in their 70's but still, this is ridiculous.

Cheers......

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 PandaWarrior 
In the heat
 
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tigertrader View Post
Barry Lind, Leo Melamed, and Tom Dittmer, were among my early mentors. Fast-forward to today, and my inclusion in Victor Niederhoffer's "spec-list" has allowed me access to the personal musings of some of the sharpest minds in trading. I am always reticent to post there, because the bar has been set so high by the other members.

You attend his annual Spec party and post on The Daily Speculator?

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
No need for charts today. I fat fingered an entry....well not really....what happened is I had a resting order to scale in, got stopped out on the first bit and forgot to pull the resting orders. Then price chopped around for a bit, I got in again, then the resting order was triggered, of course I no longer wanted that order there and my blended entry was in the wrong place, I moved the stop for the whole thing to -10 and got hit.

Combine that with a couple of smaller losers early and I am done for the day....

Not a good way to strike out....no problem losing the right way...but losing because your eyes are closed while swing the bat is just stupid....I know things like this happen once in awhile but they make you feel like a total idiot when they do....

Anyway, on to other things.

I have an appointment with a trainer tomorrow. Not really looking forward to this. All these trainer type dudes all seem so freaking gung ho about getting you to Mr Universe ASAP. I had to remind him to take a breath, dial it back a bit and take baby steps. After all, I am middle aged white male, unaccustomed to intense physical activity. To make it worse, when I walked in the place, all the 20 something alpha males were in front of the wall length mirror preening like a bunch of peacocks. In my mind I said, "just you wait, in 20 years you'll be back in here looking like me begging someone looking just like you do now to fix your problems". Time is the ultimate equalizer.

I've spent more time in the hospital in the last month with my brother, my dad and mom and of course myself, than I care to admit. The docs in the ER are accusing us of having our family reunion there. Last night I told the doc it was a potluck dinner and why didnt she bring something.....she was from India and I think the potluck dinner thing went right over her head. She just stared at me like I was from Mars. The ER staff and our family had a good laugh at her expense.

Its gotten so bad I now have a shoulder bag with snacks, hand sanitizer, something to read and a spare phone charger all ready to go....if its at night, I tuck my 9MM in the bag along with the rest and I'm ready to head out in 2 minutes or less......my parents are working on getting into Scripps in San Diego and hopefully find out what's really wrong with them....they are in their 70's but still, this is ridiculous.

Cheers......

I tried Gyms for a while but got tired of the whole preening atmosphere. Also cost me time going back and forth to the gym. So I changed my approach and spent money on a road bike bike that I would have spent in a year at a gym. Picking up cycling is best thing I ever did for my health and mental well being. You can burn an incredible amount of calories on a bike especially because of wind resistance. In Texas summers I have to go early before it gets hot but gets me mentally ready for the day. Something to consider if you end up not liking being in a gym.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 PandaWarrior 
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liquidcci View Post
I tried Gyms for a while but got tired of the whole preening atmosphere. Also cost me time going back and forth to the gym. So I changed my approach and spent money on a road bike bike that I would have spent in a year at a gym. Picking up cycling is best thing I ever did for my health and mental well being. You can burn an incredible amount of calories on a bike especially because of wind resistance. In Texas summers I have to go early before it gets hot but gets me mentally ready for the day. Something to consider if you end up not liking being in a gym.

I love biking as well. But at 115 degrees and previous heat stroke the first summer I lived here to my credit, I can't afford that. So at least in the summer its gotta be the gym. And to make it even worse, there's no such thing as a cool morning or evening....its just hot....and I need to work on my upper body as well....being a desk jockey has not been good for my Atlas look.....

Hopefully in a couple of years I can leave for the summer....ideally San Diego, Hawaii or somewhere in the UK or Scandinavia.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
You attend his annual Spec party and post on The Daily Speculator?

Yes, I've contributed to "Daily Speculations", but missed the party last year. I'll try attend the next one - great chance to network. Larry Williams, Ralph Vince, Brett Steenbarger, are members along with a lot of institutional traders, money managers, quants, academics, and even a checkers champion. There's only one other ex-floor trader, so it can be a little bit intimidating.

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 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I love biking as well. But at 115 degrees and previous heat stroke the first summer I lived here to my credit, I can't afford that. So at least in the summer its gotta be the gym. And to make it even worse, there's no such thing as a cool morning or evening....its just hot....and I need to work on my upper body as well....being a desk jockey has not been good for my Atlas look.....

Hopefully in a couple of years I can leave for the summer....ideally San Diego, Hawaii or somewhere in the UK or Scandinavia.

We think alike. I eventually want to be out of Texas in the summers. Mornings are cool enough to be outside but still to warm. I don't like cold or hot so finding a way to get 70 year round is a noble goal.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 PandaWarrior 
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tigertrader View Post
Yes, I've contributed to "Daily Speculations", but missed the party last year. I'll try attend the next one - great chance to network. Larry Williams, Ralph Vince, Brett Steenbarger, are members along with a lot of institutional traders, money managers, quants, academics, and even a checkers champion. There's only one other ex-floor trader, so it can be a little bit intimidating.

I'm assuming no retail traders get invited?

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I'm assuming no retail traders get invited?



I could always bring you as my date...

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 PandaWarrior 
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tigertrader View Post
I could always bring you as my date...


I own a tux.....sign me up!

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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tigertrader View Post
I could always bring you as my date...


PandaWarrior View Post
I own a tux.....sign me up!


I was about to say, if Brian passes I'd be your date for that. Tux, high heels, whatever. Couldn't be worse than some of my market experiences.

 
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  #1690 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
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GaryD View Post
I was about to say, if Brian passes I'd be your date for that. Tux, high heels, whatever. Couldn't be worse than some of my market experiences.


With all that working out, eating healthy, and subsequent weight loss;

I was thinking, we could dress up Brian as Brianna!

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 PandaWarrior 
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tigertrader View Post
With all that working out, eating healthy, and subsequent weight loss;

I was thinking, we could dress up Brian as Brianna!

I'm afraid that would be most unattractive.....but if I need to in order to get in......hmmmmmmmm

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 GaryD 
Orlando, Florida
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I'm afraid that would be most unattractive.....but if I need to in order to get in......hmmmmmmmm


To be a trader, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. Sometimes, it gets ugly...

 
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  #1693 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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tigertrader View Post
I am always reticent to post there, because the bar has been set so high by the other members.

Critical thinking, self-examination, and passion have always been an integral part of my approach to trading. I used to make copies of my trading cards at the end of the day, and bring the copies home to analyze them (trade-by-trade) from memory.

While a passion for trading is a prerequisite for success, it can't be a "blind passion". One theme that I picked up from Victor is Bacon's Principle of "ever changing cycles". Bacon's philosophy lead me to constantly question if my methodology is optimally effective given the current market regime. Always ask yourself, if you could be trading better - remaining flexible is the key. If your methodology fails to work or it stops working, change it.

A post by you anywhere would be well-received Gary. You are, after all, the most interesting trader in the world.

A question for you--if you think about a "methodology," some might call to mind a trend following methodology, for example. Or maybe it's a range breakout methodology. To me, these aren't really methodologies, but strategies. Don't you think that a methodology, if it really can be defined as such, should be somewhat timeless? Over a VERY long period in the market, certain things will certainly change. And while specifics of a methodology, i.e., the particularly approach, or specifics of strategies, will obviously change depending on many factors, shouldn't we have a basic model that is general enough that it can remain at the core of how we trade, always? What do you think? @tigertrader

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 tigertrader 
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josh View Post
A post by you anywhere would be well-received Gary. You are, after all, the most interesting trader in the world.

A question for you--if you think about a "methodology," some might call to mind a trend following methodology, for example. Or maybe it's a range breakout methodology. To me, these aren't really methodologies, but strategies. Don't you think that a methodology, if it really can be defined as such, should be somewhat timeless? Over a VERY long period in the market, certain things will certainly change. And while specifics of a methodology, i.e., the particularly approach, or specifics of strategies, will obviously change depending on many factors, shouldn't we have a basic model that is general enough that it can remain at the core of how we trade, always? What do you think? @tigertrader

Yes, strategies would have been a better choice of words.


Cut me some slack, Josh. I'm (old) and trying to trade and write these posts at the same time...(LOL)

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 PandaWarrior 
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I think I have a great new avatar for you.......

That was to far.......

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 GaryD 
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That was to far.......

I heard about that the other day on a radio talk show. Michael Douglas plays Liberace, and Matt Damon is his boyfriend. Does not sound pretty, but I plan to watch it.