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The PandaWarrior Chronicles
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The PandaWarrior Chronicles

  #1191 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 46,240 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,355 given, 83,237 received

Regarding all-in/out vs scaling, let me just briefly say that if you are a discretionary trader then comfort matters.

Perhaps you can find a short cut to the grocery store that is technically more efficient than your current route. But it also drives across a swamp and a couple of dirt roads on some farmers property... so even though it may save a few seconds of driving, it has a lot of bumps and bruises, not to mention leaves you with a muddy car.

I'm just saying that for me personally, I scale. Just like I prefer to drive on paved roads even if "as the crow flies" is more efficient. I think there are other facts to consider other than just net profit.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

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  #1192 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Gainesville, Florida, United S
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: TWS
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Stocks
 
Posts: 66 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 30 given, 104 received

There is no such thing as a "free-roll" or "risk-free" position in the market. There is no such thing as "playing with house money". It's only achievable in ones mind.

Anytime you have a profit in an open position -- the money belongs to you. (If it doesn't belong to you -- then whose money is it?)

Peace,
Paige

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  #1193 (permalink)
Elite Member
Georgia, US
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: Various
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josh's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,897 since Jan 2011
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Big Mike View Post
Regarding all-in/out vs scaling, let me just briefly say that if you are a discretionary trader then comfort matters.

Said another way, traders not only have monetary capital, but also emotional capital. And, sometimes tomorrow will be better if we end today with more emotional capital, even if it means we end the day with less monetary capital.

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  #1194 (permalink)
Elite Member
New York, NY
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, thinkorswim
Broker/Data: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Favorite Futures: CL, GC, NQ
 
Posts: 569 since Nov 2010
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Paige View Post
There is no such thing as a "free-roll" or "risk-free" position in the market. There is no such thing as "playing with house money". It's only achievable in ones mind.

Anytime you have a profit in an open position -- the money belongs to you. (If it doesn't belong to you -- then whose money is it?)

Peace,
Paige

If the open profit belongs to you (especially if you lock it in with a trailed stop), why isn't the position risk free when you no longer have the chance of losing money on it?

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  #1195 (permalink)
Elite Member
New York, NY
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, thinkorswim
Broker/Data: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Favorite Futures: CL, GC, NQ
 
Posts: 569 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 1,797 given, 249 received


Big Mike View Post
Regarding all-in/out vs scaling, let me just briefly say that if you are a discretionary trader then comfort matters.

Perhaps you can find a short cut to the grocery store that is technically more efficient than your current route. But it also drives across a swamp and a couple of dirt roads on some farmers property... so even though it may save a few seconds of driving, it has a lot of bumps and bruises, not to mention leaves you with a muddy car.

I'm just saying that for me personally, I scale. Just like I prefer to drive on paved roads even if "as the crow flies" is more efficient. I think there are other facts to consider other than just net profit.

Mike

Nice example. What are the other facts/reasons you prefer to scale for comfort, if it makes less net profit?

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  #1196 (permalink)
Elite Member
Georgia, US
 
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Futures Operator View Post
If the open profit belongs to you (especially if you lock it in with a trailed stop), why isn't the position risk free when you no longer have the chance of losing money on it?

Because you "lose" money that you would otherwise have if you closed the trade right now. You don't lose capital you already had, but you lose potential capital.

I think the point is that at every point of the trade, we must evaluate as best we can how to maximize our profits. In some cases that may mean adding to a position, in others it may mean reducing or closing a position.

It is psychologically easy to put the stop at BE, and this is important I think, as sometimes that allows us to more objectively view current market state because you bet starting capital and now you cannot lose that. But at the same time, you always have a decision to make -- is the market still working for me (in which case holding or adding is prudent), or has the tide turned (or going to turn) such that it is best to capture profits or completely close the position?

IMO, it would be foolish to close a position when it shows some small profit due to fear of losing it; but, it would also be equally foolish to take a loss on starting capital risked on a position which made it 70% of the way to a price which you would capture profit.

In the end we are only guessing, and we will almost always find a way we could have maximized profits on trades that were profitable. But many traders (myself included more than I would like) tend to get excited at a profit and are quick to close it, and far more patient when a trade is going against them, the opposite of what is best for making money.

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  #1197 (permalink)
Elite Member
New York, NY
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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Favorite Futures: CL, GC, NQ
 
Posts: 569 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 1,797 given, 249 received


josh View Post
Because you "lose" money that you would otherwise have if you closed the trade right now. You don't lose capital you already had, but you lose potential capital.

I think the point is that at every point of the trade, we must evaluate as best we can how to maximize our profits. In some cases that may mean adding to a position, in others it may mean reducing or closing a position.

It is psychologically easy to put the stop at BE, and this is important I think, as sometimes that allows us to more objectively view current market state because you bet starting capital and now you cannot lose that. But at the same time, you always have a decision to make -- is the market still working for me (in which case holding or adding is prudent), or has the tide turned (or going to turn) such that it is best to capture profits or completely close the position?

So you consider giving up potential open profit based on current price as risk? I had considered this just potential profit, and breathing room on a trade, and risk only as the initial stop loss amount at risk at entry.

In addition to adding/reducing/closing a position, would you also consider moving up/trailing a stop as a means to maximize profits, by leaving locking in profit while leaving the position open for further upside vs closing it?

Another way stop to BE helps, is it can allow attempts at initiating a position with tight risk management/low probability of loss of financial and emotion capital, in that a few BE trades in a day have no impact, or possibly even a slight positive impact in the case of BE+1, but a few full stop outs can ruin your day/week, both financially and emotionally. Would you agree?

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  #1198 (permalink)
Elite Member
New York, NY
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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PandaWarrior View Post
lol

I'm giving you fair warning now....its the 23rd. That should be ample notice for you to make plans to be somewhere else at that time.....

Based on the discussions I've read in this thread, I'm really excited and looking forward to this!

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  #1199 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
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Posts: 46,240 since Jun 2009
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Futures Operator View Post
Nice example. What are the other facts/reasons you prefer to scale for comfort, if it makes less net profit?

I dislike being flat when the market is moving, so said another way I like to have at least part of a position on to catch any remaining move.

I don't know what will happen next, so I set myself up to try and capture possible scenarios, with multiple targets.

Please bear in mind, I take one or two trades a day and typically hold the entire day or longer. I am not scalping.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

The following 7 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
  #1200 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 46,240 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,355 given, 83,237 received


@PandaWarrior, I was wondering if you would be willing to answer these questions. I am copying the questions from a series of interviews from Embrace The Trend:


1) How long have you been trading?


2) What style of trading / investing do you practice (technically driven, fundamental, systematic, a combination etc)?


3) How do you feel when a trade goes against you?


4) How do you feel when a trade goes for you?


5) How have these feelings changed over your trading career? (Can you recall how you originally used to feel and elaborate on how this has changed over time?)


6) Do you have any practices that you do away from the trading screen to help you mentally and emotionally handle trading?


7) Have you always done this?


8) If not, how have you learnt to deal with the feelings that come up when trading?


9) Can you describe a time in your trading life which really rammed home the point that so much of trading comes down to psychological factors?


10) If you could give aspiring traders one piece of advice about emotionally handling the market what would it be?

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

The following 5 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:

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