Mechanical trading vs. discretionary trading - Traders Hideout | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Mechanical trading vs. discretionary trading
Updated: Views / Replies:10,920 / 83
Created: by Arpad Attachments:1

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 1  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Mechanical trading vs. discretionary trading

  #61 (permalink)
Elite Member
McKinney, TX
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, ThinkorSwim
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Equities
 
Posts: 58 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 5 given, 88 received


DionysusToast View Post
This is the crux of it.

Too many think trading is a problem to be resolved and not a skill to be developed.

Those that approach it as a problem will not be developing the skill and will be screwed (your words) when the market changes.

I am amused that someone called me a 'dog who can't learn new tricks' for claiming that trading is a skill which will constantly evolve as opposed to a problem which can be programmed around.


sidney7g View Post
By Discretionary Do you mean just trading what your gut feels on any given instant or are you referring to trading at the right spot of a setup based on technicals and previous experience? A lot of people mix these two up. Charts are a language of their own. would you rather go to a foreign country and use a translator everywhere you go or learn the language make a few mistakes and eventually become fluent? If your the type of person who will review your losses and learn from them I suggest discretion. But if your the type of person who will continue to make the same mistakes and you don't have the time to either watch the market or learn that language and need indicators, use automation.

Many people will claim not using indicators will eventually make you a dead man. I challenge anyone of these people to trade the chartgame.com from 10k to a million with no indicators. I've done it, it works. end of story.


I have the time to look at charts. Hell it is all I do. I go over bad trades like some forensic freak with OCD. I havent heard of this chartgame.com but thanks to you my weekend schedule is now full! I always think me dancing in and out of the market is the best strategy, but I kid you not, I have a real money "demo" account with some Japanese broker, since paper trading is worthless other than testing, that gives me huge leverage that can blow you out after 20 pips in which I shorted the EURUSD at 14690 as I did in my real account with the 6E and I made more with 1/20th the equity because I forgot to pay attention to it. In fact I increased that account 40 fold because after I noticed I added more and more when I remembered instead of watching it tick by tick and forcing dumb trades..... go figure..

Reply With Quote
 
  #62 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: Nq
 
Posts: 114 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 33 given, 25 received

If you want to trade technical analysis please watch these videos, I've seen them all and they've helped me greatly with both using indicators and identifying patterns. The guy gets a little monotonous after a while but he's got a vast array of knowledge and it's free.

YouTube - ‪1. Technical Analysis Lesson 1: Intro to Technical Analysis‬‏

Reply With Quote
 
  #63 (permalink)
Elite Member
McKinney, TX
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, ThinkorSwim
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Equities
 
Posts: 58 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 5 given, 88 received

Grrr


I can confirm that chartgame.com is just like the actual market in which the results are the market makers from the past stop hunting my positions in the future. They are just like the Terminator. Do not play it is fraudulent!


Just kidding but it does help me see that indicators often only work when they work. Hmm I have a lot of time this weekend to take all this stuff in from you gys. Thanks much. I will buy you all cars within a month or 2

Reply With Quote
 
  #64 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: Nq
 
Posts: 114 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 33 given, 25 received

chartgame.com is actual stock data, when you finish a chart you can reveal the stock and what time period.

just when your playing make sure you review every candle when you timelapse. don't catch falling knives. And watch the price on the right to see if the stock is volatile, sometimes a dollar jump can be 50% other times it can be .5% depending on the actual value of the stock.

Its interesting to watch other peoples strategies when you view their trades in the database. Try picking someone who has a good annual return of 30% or higher and go through some of their charts and see what they did.

So the best strategy in my opinion is basically just cutting your losses and picking ripe setups. But beware its not exactly an easy or fun game, it requires work if you wanna make it over 20gs or better yet into the 100000s

Reply With Quote
 
  #65 (permalink)
Elite Member
Bala, PA, USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus, IB
Favorite Futures: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
monpere's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,858 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 300 given, 3,276 received


DionysusToast View Post
This is the crux of it.

Too many think trading is a problem to be resolved and not a skill to be developed.

Those that approach it as a problem will not be developing the skill and will be screwed (your words) when the market changes.

I am amused that someone called me a 'dog who can't learn new tricks' for claiming that trading is a skill which will constantly evolve as opposed to a problem which can be programmed around.

Trading can be a skill that is developed, or it can be an innate ability of a special few. The problem is that a very small portion have that innate ability, another portion will never develop the skill no matter how much they try (no matter how much I try, I will never be a great basketball player, cause I have no coordination) , and most of the rest will reach the point of ruin, and have to quit, before they have the chance to develop the skill.

Autotrading is not about teaching a machine how to trade or match the skill of a successful trader. It is about having a profitable conceptual idea or trading method, and being able to program that method and have that programming do exactly what you want it to. That is the secret to any profitable method, whether manual or automated. Is it a good concept, and can the entity pulling the trigger do so reliably, human or machine.

There are 2 types of autotrading. One, and the most common for retail traders, is about automating a manual trading method that seems to have merit. If you don't have a profitable manual trading method, you will not have a profitable automated method, and worse, you may have a profitable manual trading method, that makes a horrendously bad automated method because of the complexity of coding it (as in my case). The 2nd type of autotrading is having a machine exploit certain micro market phenomenon that are impossible to trade manually. This is the case for HFT autotrading.

Successful discretionary traders may use all sorts of inputs to decide on trade selection, entries, exits, etc. Successful autotraders will generally do one thing, only one thing, and do that one thing over and over consistently. They know that they will be wrong on a certain percentage of that thing, but they only rely on the success rate of that thing to be profitable. They don't have to be smart, they don't need intuition, they don't need skill, or special ability, they don't need to analyze a million different inputs. They just need to recognize and take action on that single market concept reliably, repeatably and consistently. How good that original concept is, and the expectancy of that market concept, is what makes or breaks an automated system.

Reply With Quote
 
  #66 (permalink)
Elite Member
Bala, PA, USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus, IB
Favorite Futures: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
monpere's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,858 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 300 given, 3,276 received


sidney7g View Post
chartgame.com is actual stock data, when you finish a chart you can reveal the stock and what time period.

just when your playing make sure you review every candle when you timelapse. don't catch falling knives. And watch the price on the right to see if the stock is volatile, sometimes a dollar jump can be 50% other times it can be .5% depending on the actual value of the stock.

Its interesting to watch other peoples strategies when you view their trades in the database. Try picking someone who has a good annual return of 30% or higher and go through some of their charts and see what they did.

So the best strategy in my opinion is basically just cutting your losses and picking ripe setups. But beware its not exactly an easy or fun game, it requires work if you wanna make it over 20gs or better yet into the 100000s


Does this game take into account, drawdown, and point of ruin? These 2 are the number one trading dream killers! The other thing to ask yourself is, are truly profitable traders going to waste their time playing chart games online? I would stake my reputation (which is not great ) in saying that excelling at this game most likely has little correlation to how successful the individual users are in their real trading.

Reply With Quote
 
  #67 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: Nq
 
Posts: 114 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 33 given, 25 received

well give it a try, don't take my word for it. you don't have to sign up or anything.
It is as it is, just stock data on charts with the ability to buy or sell.

unfortunately there are no stop losses/limits or fees, but i'm sure you can figure it out if you do the math.
Another con is that its daily candles not intra-day, but similar patterns occur.
And of course its not real money which is the biggest flaw. The main advantage is that you can time lapse and switch charts.

while playing you'll hit a brick wall over and over until you learn to focus and take it seriously. That is the lesson. It goes to show beginner traders, compulsive traders, or people who just have problems trading to get to the root of the issue in a timely fashion with out risking actual capital. Its not 'the cure', its just an aid.

Of course if your already profitable on a daily basis theres no reason to use it.

Reply With Quote
 
  #68 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
Oslo, Norway
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
Favorite Futures: CL
 
Lornz's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 500 given, 1,235 received


nirajkrishna View Post
Hmmmm.... I dont an automated system as I cannot program worth a dam, so I wouldnt be able to be profitable without causing me more problems than doing it myself. You probably just change rules on the fly. I see one of your favorite instruments is the 6E. Do you have an example of one of these macroeconomic moves on 6E? I seem to find the 6E as the most predictable and non trend breaking instrument on the planet. In fact, I have never seen a news event turn a trend in any currency futures. Even the Japanese earthquake, I was showing a yen that had pulled back severely and was ready to explode all the way up to that day. Which still freaks me out, but that is another story... A news event may cause a 100 or 200+ pip pullback in 2 seconds, but it never turns something that isnt toppy already or vice versa. In fact, I usually can predict the reaction to news. I may have the initial reaction wrong, but because the inability of these macro events have to turn trends, usually leaves my predictions correct. I am thinking you must scalp these moves and make good money then, but for me trading with the trend seems to be a far better situation.

Not trying to argue with you at all... Profitable is profitable, and I dont care if your dog makes your trades for you. I was just wondering what you call a macroeconomic opportunity is all. I sit there everyday on Stocktwits and read the experts trying to give a reason for the move as if the news they are speaking about hasnt been known for years... Greece, Bailout, Moody's downgrade (my favorite), etc.. And since insider trading is not illegal in the currency market, I am in the camp that big money is always in the know since the political officials whose campaign was funded by these players will announce the information right after his re election's financial blood has settled in their "pre news" position. I know that last sentence ran a bit but work with me

TL;DR I dont think Macroeconomic events have any medium term or long term effects on the market. However, I do think "surprise" interest rate hikes can shift around some sentiment but they wear off too..

You are right, I used to scalp rate hikes etc. I rarely do anymore, unless there is an opportunity too big to pass up.

I was not necessarily talking about news, I was also referring to longer term directional plays based on macroeconomics and other fundamental analysis.
I held CL for about a year after I got in at around $50 in February 07. It was pretty clear it would be going up. Well, at least I thought so. China was busy acquiring strategic oil reserves, the economy was, according to the "experts" booming and you had speculators itching to create a new bubble.

The crash in 08 presented extreme opportunities where one could buy several quality stocks at an considerable discount. When I saw one of my favorite companies, Seadrill, trade in the 40's (NOK), I bought with no stop. It is now at around 180, after peaking at 215. The dividends have also been nice ( http://www.seadrill.com/investor_relations/dividends ). My most profitable day of trading the ES was the day of the "Flash Crash". The idea of betting heavily when things align, is not necessarily a bad thing. It requires a completely different mindset than daytrading, though.

The Nikkei had some massive moves in the days of the tsunami, and subsequently the nuclear scare. It went down almost 2000 points, if I remember correctly.

To say that macroeconomics has no effect on the markets long-term would be erroneous. The problem is more that "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" (Keynes).

Are you trying to imply that hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians becoming middle class won't have an effect on finite resources?

However, I agree with you that "big money" is usually in the know, and we are not. Therefore I recommend trading what one sees.
The crux of my trading is price action, statistics and probability!

I have a background as a "professional gambler", though. Thus I tend to take advantage of situations where I find value...


Last edited by Lornz; June 18th, 2011 at 04:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Lornz for this post:
 
  #69 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: Nq
 
Posts: 114 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 33 given, 25 received

I can't even imagine what it'd be like to short a crash, lock in profits, and just ride the thing out. That would be back flipping epic. I'd just be fearful of slippage and a little sad for the people who loss all their money. but nonetheless

Reply With Quote
 
  #70 (permalink)
Elite Member
McKinney, TX
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, ThinkorSwim
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Equities
 
Posts: 58 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 5 given, 88 received

I KNOW!!


I never made my first trade of any kind until march 2009. So I apparently got in like 20 minutes after the bottom was put in. I remember using part of my tax return to open my account. So I started with 2500 at most. By the end of the month I was over 10k and 2 months later.. over 25k. And now I wish I would have lost to begin my career, because I think it caused me to expect too much. But I look back at charts of the last crash and can only imagine what that was like. Wow.... I just wonder how long it takes before people stop bottom fishing. It had to be the biggest, easiest opportunity in 2 or 3 generations....

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > Mechanical trading vs. discretionary trading

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Linda Bradford Raschke: Reading The Tape

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

January

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Building a PC for Discretionary/Automated Trading and Strategy Development nlhaines Tech Support 50 January 13th, 2017 06:18 PM
Use your brain! Mechanical indicator-based systems don't work cunparis Traders Hideout 109 September 30th, 2014 07:49 AM
Multicharts Discretionary - Anybody trading with it? NW27 MultiCharts 35 September 15th, 2011 10:19 PM
Top Tenets of Mechanical Trading shodson Traders Hideout 9 April 29th, 2010 03:00 AM
Webinar Trading Video: Live Trading and Technical Analysis of EuroStoxx 50 max-td Trading Reviews and Vendors 1 March 13th, 2010 07:35 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:22 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-12 in 0.22 seconds with 40 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.90.207.75