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Did revenge trade today, lost big...
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Did revenge trade today, lost big...

  #11 (permalink)
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Thanks guys. I thought a lot about it this weekend. I still haven't found out why I started doing that. I hope I got my lesson. Revenge trading is not working.

I'm happy it did not work, what if it DID worked (like only once) :-)

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  #12 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Thanks guys. I thought a lot about it this weekend. I still haven't found out why I started doing that. I hope I got my lesson. Revenge trading is not working.

I'm happy it did not work, what if it DID worked (like only once) :-)


So MT is it Eminisniper system or you who is loosing money. I know you know the answer.
I like to follow traders who are making money and I think number of people in this forum are making it. Traders like BigMike FatTails, Jeff, Sharky and others. What do they have? Discipline!!! We all can learn more about Discipline.



TickVix/Gregory

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  #13 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Thanks guys. I thought a lot about it this weekend. I still haven't found out why I started doing that. I hope I got my lesson. Revenge trading is not working.

I'm happy it did not work, what if it DID worked (like only once) :-)

You might get away with this a few times, but in the end you will get caught. You were indeed lucky that the market did not reward bad behavior.

The problem is that your reactions are somehow natural. So you need to unlearn and relearn, how to trade.

25 years ago a 3-seated air plane crashed just in front in of my eyes. It was an ugly scene, the pilot was still in the plane bleeding from his nose and his hand was hanging down leaving the white bone of the arm pointing towards the sky. One of the two passengers was lying 15 yards off the plane.

What had happened? The pilot, prior to take-off, happy to take his friends for a ride, had quickly gone through his check-list and made one mistake. He had not opened the fuel valve prior to take-off. The plane started with the fuel left in the carburetor and the fuel-pipe, and then gained about 250 feet before the engine failed. By the way, the guys survived, but had to stay in hospital for several weeks. Modern planes have their fuel valve next to the carburetor, so they wouldn't have come that far.

Trading is quite similar, before putting on the first trade, we need togo through the check-list repeat our rules for the day, such as

(1) only take the setups that give us an edge
(2) always to take a loss, never move the stop further away from our entry point
(3) never average down
(4) stop trading for the day after three consecutive losses, or if our daily threshold has been met
(5) stop trading, if we are physically or emotionally unfit

When repeating these rules becomes a habit, this habit might break other bad habits. Imagine, if you can stick to these simple rules you will never see a large trading loss in your life!

I want to point again to Brett Steenbarger's book "The Daily Trading Coach":

Chapter 5 : Breaking Old Patterns

Lesson 41: Escape The Gravity of Past Relationships
Lesson 42: Crystallize our repetitive patterns
Lesson 43: Challenge our Defenses
-> includes a passage on revenge trading

Chapter 6: Remapping the Mind

Not going further into details. This book is one of the best that has ever been written on the challenges of trading. Although I also highly rate the books of Mark Douglas, the two books published by Brett Steenbarger on trading psychology are clearly the best that I have ever read. The other one is "Enhanced Trader Performance".


Last edited by Fat Tails; January 16th, 2011 at 03:25 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)
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tickvix View Post
So MT is it Eminisniper system or you who is loosing money. I know you know the answer.
I like to follow traders who are making money and I think number of people in this forum are making it. Traders like BigMike FatTails, Jeff, Sharky and others. What do they have? Discipline!!! We all can learn more about Discipline.

TickVix/Gregory

No, I was not trading the eminisniper setup, but like I wrote, I started taking trades without even seeing entry signals !!!

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  #15 (permalink)
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It is not just loss thro the trade, but also the commissions on the trade. for 50 trades, I guess the commissions would have totaled to some $250.00

I read somewhere that Stock market is a zero sum game, but I think it is wrong. Market is a negative sum game. say on one ES contract, if you win 4 ticks, you got $50, but you actually pocketing $45 (after the commission) and if you lose 4 ticks, you lost not $50, but $55 ( after commission). So, the $ 10 (55-45), middlemen makes the money for every contract, no matter who wins or loses. Added to that, infrastructure cost like laptop, internet, software costs...yes, this is a negative sum game.

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  #16 (permalink)
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Sam7768 View Post
It is not just loss thro the trade, but also the commissions on the trade. for 50 trades, I guess the commissions would have totaled to some $250.00

I read somewhere that Stock market is a zero sum game, but I think it is wrong. Market is a negative sum game. say on one ES contract, if you win 4 ticks, you got $50, but you actually pocketing $45 (after the commission) and if you lose 4 ticks, you lost not $50, but $55 ( after commission). So, the $ 10 (55-45), middlemen makes the money for every contract, no matter who wins or loses. Added to that, infrastructure cost like laptop, internet, software costs...yes, this is a negative sum game.



No this is not true, how you place your trades is not the markets fault. In Japan when futures originated out of the rice exchange, they didn't have computers etc. The fundamentals are 0 sum.

TT

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  #17 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
No, I was not trading the eminisniper setup, but like I wrote, I started taking trades without even seeing entry signals !!!

This was a daily pattern of mine for many months. That is why I am sim until I can get my head around not doing that. I believe if I can not do it while sim (which I was doing before sim) then I will be free of this bad habit.

It is funny. As I have been doing more trading and for longer, the less emotional anything I put on it. I really don't care much any more.

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  #18 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
You might get away with this a few times, but in the end you will get caught. You were indeed lucky that the market did not reward bad behavior.

The problem is that your reactions are somehow natural. So you need to unlearn and relearn, how to trade.

25 years ago a 3-seated air plane crashed just in front in of my eyes. It was an ugly scene, the pilot was still in the plane bleeding from his nose and his hand was hanging down leaving the white bone of the arm pointing towards the sky. One of the two passengers was lying 15 yards off the plane.

What had happened? The pilot, prior to take-off, happy to take his friends for a ride, had quickly gone through his check-list and made one mistake. He had not opened the fuel valve prior to take-off. The plane started with the fuel left in the carburetor and the fuel-pipe, and then gained about 250 feet before the engine failed. By the way, the guys survived, but had to stay in hospital for several weeks. Modern planes have their fuel valve next to the carburetor, so they wouldn't have come that far.

Trading is quite similar, before putting on the first trade, we need togo through the check-list repeat our rules for the day, such as

(1) only take the setups that give us an edge
(2) always to take a loss, never move the stop further away from our entry point
(3) never average down
(4) stop trading for the day after three consecutive losses, or if our daily threshold has been met
(5) stop trading, if we are physically or emotionally unfit

When repeating these rules becomes a habit, this habit might break other bad habits. Imagine, if you can stick to these simple rules you will never see a large trading loss in your life!

I want to point again to Brett Steenbarger's book "The Daily Trading Coach":

Chapter 5 : Breaking Old Patterns

Lesson 41: Escape The Garvity of Past Relationshups
Lesson 42: Crystallize our repetitive patterns
Lesson 43: Challenge our Defenses
-> includes a passage on revenge trading

Chapter 6: Remapping the Mind

Not going further into details. This book is one of the best that has ever been written on the challenges of tading. Although I also highly rate the books of Mark Douglas, the two books published by Brett Steenbarger on trading psychology are clearly the best that I have ever read. The other one is "Enhanced Trader Performance".

Hello Fat tails, It strikes me why trading always is being compared with flying :-)

We don't have carburetors anymore but it's fuel injected.

As a Private Pilot single engine, multi engine and instrument rated, plus I'm a Plane owner I can assure you that fuel selectors are still far from the engine cylinders. Far enough to do your taxi/run up, just make it a few 100 feet in the air and quit on you. It's one of my 'killer' items I always double check on the runway just before take off (AFTER my normal checklist). In fact, many check lists and pilots switch tanks during taxi (my plane has 6 different fuel tanks) but I tend to put them on the main tanks before starting and leaving them there because then I know that the mains are working, I don't care about my other tanks, I'll change them in the air at a safe altitude after take off. I have never made the mistakes in flying that I have made in trading. Again, that's why I don't understand why many people compare those 2. Flying is easy compared to trading, believe me.

There is also another dogma in flying that to be a safe pilot you don't use a checklist, but you memorize it and use the flow scan. Meaning you start from left to right watching and touching every setting. Research have shown that private pilots are sloppy on many items on the checklist, and by using a flow memorized checklist you are forgetting nothing. Maybe I can use that in my trading so I have something that I used in flying in my training :-) Before putting up a trade I quickly check for every setting before taking the trade, in a quick flow, from left to right

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  #19 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Hello Fat tails, It strikes me why trading always is being compared with flying :-)

I knew that you have a pilot licence.


MetalTrade View Post
We don't have carburetors anymore but it's fuel injected.

It was an old Czech-built plane.


MetalTrade View Post
There is also another dogma in flying that to be a safe pilot you don't use a checklist, but you memorize it and use the flow scan. Meaning you start from left to right watching and touching every setting. Research have shown that private pilots are sloppy on many items on the checklist, and by using a flow memorized checklist you are forgetting nothing. Maybe I can use that in my trading so I have something that I used in flying in my training :-) Before putting up a trade I quickly check for every setting before taking the trade, in a quick flow, from left to right

Nothing similar between trading and flying?

If you can develop a flow memorized checklist for trading - or let us say develop a ritual, which makes you always follow the same procedure before putting on any trade -, and if this checklist includes the five rules to avoid disaster, that would be a translation of your learned behavior as a pilot to trading.

I think that there are more similarities between flying and trading. There is a risk that something goes wrong. You need various skills and some discipline to follow the rules.

However, few have ever started flying a plane without an instructor.....

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  #20 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
However, few have ever started flying a plane without an instructor.....

He did :

YouTube - helicopter crash new student with no instructor

So there are similarities between trading and flying

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