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Walk the Walk, traders showing their profits and sim/demo


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Walk the Walk, traders showing their profits and sim/demo

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  #1 (permalink)
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I would absolutely find it amazingly interesting if traders could upload their daily/weekly or monthly profits to a place where they could all be viewed for profitability.

Maybe not actual $'s per se, but more like a trademanager analysis report showing an ACTUAL LIVE OR SIM account and backed up by a brokerage statement or something like that.

Then, next to the persons name, they would get a special title like "Profitable Trader" and it could go in their profile etc..

This would be inspiring to others and would help us all evaluate our performance against the group to see if we are truly doing well or not etc...

Cory uploaded his SIM sheet (although not verified) and something to the effect showing how profitable he was shows his trading style is very effective and one should listen to him etc..

Too often we got 'Advanced' Traders on the boards giving lip service to how it is 'done' and yet these people are not the most honest in their own trading.

Not a requirement, but a fun item that could have prizes etc..? I believe that you would attract larger #'s of people and prove the capability of the group.

There are a lot of tangents on this, but I for one enjoy seeing people who can really trade and watch their posts. I have been in the breakeven stage now for about 8 months and I believe it is a 'stage' and I plan on being over that when my subconcious makes that decision.

This is just an idea, but would love to see it!

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  #2 (permalink)
the coin hunter
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bluemele View Post
..

Cory uploaded his SIM sheet (although not verified) and something to the effect showing how profitable he was shows his trading style is very effective and one should listen to him etc....

This is just an idea, but would love to see it!

I will do one better. By end of year I will upload live performance that my student trades for me and what not

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  #3 (permalink)
 
 
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interesting idea...

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  #4 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
I would absolutely find it amazingly interesting if traders could upload their daily/weekly or monthly profits to a place where they could all be viewed for profitability.

Maybe not actual $'s per se, but more like a trademanager analysis report showing an ACTUAL LIVE OR SIM account and backed up by a brokerage statement or something like that.

Why would someone do that ? Why would anyone post their brokerage accounts online?

Although a nice idea, I think it is a non starter except for those that want to make a buck from teaching others to trade. Those that are successful and don't care about teaching will just spend time trading.

Velocity futures has a leaderboard, you could take a look at that.

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  #5 (permalink)
the coin hunter
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Quoting 
The Leader Board is only visible to users who have opted in to display their own data

its only for a few to view.




traderwerks View Post
Why would someone do that ? Why would anyone post their brokerage accounts online?
....

see post #63-#68 then again you were there

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  #6 (permalink)
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Honestly, I think a better way is for traders to post their entries and exits in realtime journals. It takes less than a minute to do this and beats the hell out of anything posted way after the fact.

For example: B xyz @ ___, S xyz @ ___.

There are some terrific (and lousy) traders doing this on ET each and every day, all day long.

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  #7 (permalink)
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cory View Post
its only for a few to view.

see post #63-#68 then again you were there

Not really following that.

I think journals are great and if traders want to keep a journal I think that is much better ( aztrader9, cuinparis ) and they can post blotters. But I don't think I would want to put up my brokerage statement. I would have to black out personal information every time and I don't think I would be comfortable with posting how much is in my account on the internet for everyone to see ( regardless if it is too large or too small).

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  #8 (permalink)
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traderwerks View Post
Not really following that.

I think journals are great and if traders want to keep a journal I think that is much better ( aztrader9, cuinparis ) and they can post blotters. But I don't think I would want to put up my brokerage statement. I would have to black out personal information every time and I don't think I would be comfortable with posting how much is in my account on the internet for everyone to see ( regardless if it is too large or too small).

Totally understandable and agree.

Which brokerage do you use? Typically the DOM will show P&L which doesn't show account balance.

The idea was not to have everyone upload their brokerage statement, but more inline with someone from BigMike's to do it or verify it if at all possible.

I agree that people who have something to sell would be more apt and open for such, however, wouldn't everyone want that if they are truly a great trader to share?

For instance, put up your total points per month profit and maybe Big Mike does a monthly verification. You would have to feel comfortable of releasing the info etc.. Just an idea as maybe that would open Big Mike open to issues/problems etc... I don't know, but I think an interesting concept to have real 'verified' traders and not hocus pocus I am so good listen to me. haha...

Not that it matters, people have a choice, but I know a few years ago when I was new to trading I was listening to guys who were lying lying lying.

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  #9 (permalink)
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traderwerks View Post
Not really following that.

I think journals are great and if traders want to keep a journal I think that is much better ( aztrader9, cuinparis ) and they can post blotters. But I don't think I would want to put up my brokerage statement. I would have to black out personal information every time and I don't think I would be comfortable with posting how much is in my account on the internet for everyone to see ( regardless if it is too large or too small).

Yes, I agree. Unless someone is selling anything, I don't see the point of doing that. As I am not selling anything, I couldn't care less if someone think I am profitable or not or chose to ignore my posts and is definitely not going through all that hassle for an ego boost. Someone not thinking I am profitable and not reading my posts because of that, is not going to affect my bottom line at all.

Frankly, I think people will be a lot more successful if they focus more on their own trading than caring how well (or not) someone else is doing. I have never learned anything that helped me in my trading from looking at someone else's brokerage statement.

I am also not that arrogant to think that I cannot learn something from someone just because they are not profitable. On the other hand, just because someone is profitable, does this make them automatically trustworthy? How do you know they are not telling you half truths, or deliberately steering you in the wrong direction for whatever reason?

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  #10 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
Not that it matters, people have a choice, but I know a few years ago when I was new to trading I was listening to guys who were lying lying lying.

If someone is profitable, does this mean they won't lie?

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  #11 (permalink)
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I think this thread is very funny. At first, you guys post, "hey if these guys are profitable, what do they have to hide? Why don't they show their statements to prove it? I just want to see a statement to see if its even possible" So i was, you're right. Thats perfectly logical, you want proof.

Now your saying, "well if they're putting their statements up, they want to sell you something"....lol

Im not gonna continue any further,and I'm gonna leave this thread with one final note. Anyone here selling something has to be identified as a vendor, and they cannot self promote.

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Michael.H View Post
I think this thread is very funny. At first, you guys post, "hey if these guys are profitable, what do they have to hide? Why don't they show their statements to prove it? I just want to see a statement to see if its even possible" So i was, you're right. Thats perfectly logical, you want proof.

Now your saying, "well if they're putting their statements up, they want to sell you something"....lol

Im not gonna continue any further,and I'm gonna leave this thread with one final note. Anyone here selling something has to be identified as a vendor, and they cannot self promote.

I know traders who are profitable and have been for a long time. And there are some profitable traders on futures.io (formerly BMT). They are usually not that boastful to want to show people how well they are doing. They are more likely to trade and go on vacation or spend time with their families. MOST would not want to answer questions from a board about what they are doing. Some would , but most are just happy to trade and post occasionally.

I am saying that the people that can trade and make a living at it usually don't go around telling others how great they are nor do they need to. They just trade. ( I have noticed that it seems successful traders do have a small group of friends they will talk and share with. )

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  #13 (permalink)
 
 
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I will not do it because it's BAD KARMA !!!

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  #14 (permalink)
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Personally I don't think it will be that useful. We all have different risk profiles, trading styles, and account sizes. I beat my target this year (800 basis points above the risk-free rate) by a good margin and with acceptable drawdown. That's my style, and my current comfort zone.

If some forum members doubled their money, does that make them traders I want to emulate? Probably not. Because that is not my style.

I think most can see through bs here and filter out the noise. A pissing contest based on account statements won't necesarily improve the content of this already outstanding forum.

My 2 cents...

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  #15 (permalink)
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Hey, while we're at it, why don't we post our tax returns?

The majority of my trading career, my trading was on display, and to a certain degree my P&L was pretty well known. When you are trading in a pit, you spend all day trying to disguise or conceal what your position is, so other traders don't take advantage of that knowledge, but you could see for yourself how big other traders traded, and how they traded.

You could also discern what kind of day they had by simply asking them , " how was your day?" The standard reply for a bad day, (and it's none of your business) was, "at least I got my health." A really good day might elicit, " I killed 'em." Traders rarely divulged to other traders, except for their best buddies, what was their exact P&L... because it wasn't really your business. However, exact P&Ls and even year-ends had a way of becoming known, because clerks always gossiped to other clerks.

Unless, a trader is trying to establish a track record, because he wants to manage OPM, I see no reason why he would want to publish his P&L. It's really nobody's business, except for the I.R.S, and he has nothing to prove to anyone, nor does he owe it to anyone. I think it's the readers responsibility to filter whom and what he wants to read and believe, and whom and what he wants to dismiss.

An alternative to publishing one's P&L would be for Mike to have an incentive based trading contest, where everybody starts with the same amount of money and there is a leadership board, like others have suggested. But if you are a serious and active trader, I don't think you will have the time for such a contest.

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thatguy View Post
Frankly, I think people will be a lot more successful if they focus more on their own trading than caring how well (or not) someone else is doing. .....

I am also not that arrogant to think that I cannot learn something from someone just because they are not profitable. On the other hand, just because someone is profitable, does this make them automatically trustworthy? How do you know they are not telling you half truths, or deliberately steering you in the wrong direction for whatever reason?

I concur with some of your statements. I am sure there are a lot of people on futures.io (formerly BMT) that post for the ego trip, that more than likely have never been out of sim and yet they are "profitable". I laugh when I read on someone's post who is learning, how they want to be a coach to other traders; when they are not yet consistenly profitable themselves nor have their own emotions under control.

At the same time, there are those that are truly profitable with real money and dont post as much and keep their success quiet (in other words, they dont boast how great of a trader they are.) some might be interested on mentoring you as a way to give back, others might just not care at all and might offer you some help but desist whenever you think you know it all and contradict them; their time is better spend on other things.

I personally find it that I learn from both type of posters on this board. The main reason I participate on this board is to express my views and take from others points of view and add it to my own. In my opinion, it is easy to tell when someone is not being transparent with their success, as it will just show on their views. When I express my views I force myself to follow it; even though the posting here is anonymous, I know people who will more than likely read them, so to have said something and then do something else would not add credibility to me as an individual and rather undermine my trust worthyness to my friends. If my views, or understanding giving way to a view is wrong or inadequate, I change it and formulate a new view. As such I take from both, posers and realist posters... I can certainly learn from both behaviours and apply them.

as one last note; I would never trust anyone's sim results; to me those are not real and regardless of what one might think, one wont treat them the same as the same pressure does not exists.

All platforms are inadequate when it comes to sim. Sim is only to get to know a platform. I have only came across 3 platforms available to retail that close to simulate a proper (and I use that word very liberally) fill: CTS T4, CQG, XTrader. all other results are suspect.

Trading REAL MONEY is way different than sim. Completely different emotions involved. I test crazyness in sim. Averaging down to understand why someone would do that or if I am ever in that state of mind, that I do it right (though in reality, there is no right way, just take the loss, you were wrong). Scaling in and out with different contract sizes, what are the P&L Swings like if I am carrying 50 contracts, is it reasonable to carry X number of contracts, with what account size should I do it, etc.

as usual, just my point of view... I am not advocating that you should gamble with $10K on the futures market, but that rather $10K in sim is not the same as $10K of your hard earned money. There are ways to get started trading that limit your risks and allow your account to survive while learning; not as sexy as trading futures, but wont leave you standing naked in the middle of the street. As a buddy told me yesterday when I was complaining about how slow trading options can be and why I am so determined to be consistenly profitable with futures: "As long as you are making money, who cares how unsexy it is" ... and he is very much correct... but we are humans after all and we seek exciting things..

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  #17 (permalink)
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Well, I think everyone just about chimed in. haha....

Just to be clear, the concept was not to share P&L statements to EVERYONE. That seems to be a big mis-perception.

I also agree that it could be conceived as an EGO boost, but my guess is that if that is the case, you are likely not profitable. haha...

As far as "KARMA", hmmmm... I don't think I agree with you on that since you are not doing it to 'BRAG' but to HELP.

The concept would not be MANDATORY but meant to be inspirational. And, as a trader, I do find it VERY inspirational to see others profitable when I may nor may not be. Otherwise Market Wizards wouldn't have sold many copies as well as the whole 4 minute mile story/rule.

I think it is interesting on people's perspective or reaction to this. You basically have two camps of thought but the whole purpose is to create something that would help others.

The trading contest is a great idea and I think it could be done live or sim. Maybe two leaderboards for example.

I disagree that sim is useless. If you feel it is, then it is. If a person has never traded live and lost thousands, then yes I agree that they will probably treat SIM differently than live, but once you have lost a substantial amount of $'s and realize that you have to get it right on sim, then I think you understand that there is no difference between the two mentally. Once you have the mindset of proper $ management, then it is the same in my book and I personally don't need to keep losing thousands of MORE dollars to master my practice until I get more stable. Just my opinion....

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You have to believe me that trading can be profitable on a daily basis. That does not mean you will be profitable, even if you work on it for 10 years and have a gazillion screen hours experience.

All you need is here on bigmike, for free.

I remember seeing a site of a trading contest that has been won by the same trader 3 years in a row. Talking about being consistent ;-)

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  #19 (permalink)
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i do wonder how much it is in a person's benefit to "share methods"/"help"
when one can only win in this game when others lose??
this is meant as a serious question - more than likely it has taken the average
trader a very long time and hard graft to get to where he or she is - unless you
are getting some gd money in return - is it even sensible to be sharing?

i do agree with you though - it is inspirational


bluemele View Post
Well, I think everyone just about chimed in. haha....

Just to be clear, the concept was not to share P&L statements to EVERYONE. That seems to be a big mis-perception.

I also agree that it could be conceived as an EGO boost, but my guess is that if that is the case, you are likely not profitable. haha...

As far as "KARMA", hmmmm... I don't think I agree with you on that since you are not doing it to 'BRAG' but to HELP.

The concept would not be MANDATORY but meant to be inspirational. And, as a trader, I do find it VERY inspirational to see others profitable when I may nor may not be. Otherwise Market Wizards wouldn't have sold many copies as well as the whole 4 minute mile story/rule.

I think it is interesting on people's perspective or reaction to this. You basically have two camps of thought but the whole purpose is to create something that would help others.

The trading contest is a great idea and I think it could be done live or sim. Maybe two leaderboards for example.

I disagree that sim is useless. If you feel it is, then it is. If a person has never traded live and lost thousands, then yes I agree that they will probably treat SIM differently than live, but once you have lost a substantial amount of $'s and realize that you have to get it right on sim, then I think you understand that there is no difference between the two mentally. Once you have the mindset of proper $ management, then it is the same in my book and I personally don't need to keep losing thousands of MORE dollars to master my practice until I get more stable. Just my opinion....


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anniebee321 View Post
i do wonder how much it is in a person's benefit to "share methods"/"help"
when one can only win in this game when others lose??
this is meant as a serious question - more than likely it has taken the average
trader a very long time and hard graft to get to where he or she is - unless you
are getting some gd money in return - is it even sensible to be sharing?

i do agree with you though - it is inspirational

You may have read somewhere that trading is a zero sum game, and for every winner there is a loser. But, I don't believe that you are going to be on the other side of every trade I make, nor will any other single individual. This isn't chess where we are competing against each other one-on-one. Even if it was, and I was a master chess player who taught you everything I knew, it doesn't mean you would be able to defeat me.

Sharing my knowledge and experience with you, isn't going to diminish my success.

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  #21 (permalink)
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OK, i think you guys read my statement, and they started commenting on that without understanding what this is all about. Go to the very first post, and thats how it all started. Nobody came in here to say im gonna post my statement just for the hell of it.

The person that started this thread didn't believe that ANYONE can make money day trading, and he simply asked for the PNL statement of "anyone", because he said," If someone would just post that, it would rekindle my hopes that you can make money trading". So to help him out, i said that makes sense.
Now you guys are going on all these tangents about how its showing off, and even the original thread starter agrees with that now( which really doesn't make sense to me anymore, since he was the one that requested it).....

Nobody is asking you guys to post your accounts, and i think this thread has become useless since i don't even know the intentions of the person who started this thread anymore.

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  #22 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
I would absolutely find it amazingly interesting if traders could upload their daily/weekly or monthly profits to a place where they could all be viewed for profitability.

Maybe not actual $'s per se, but more like a trademanager analysis report showing an ACTUAL LIVE OR SIM account and backed up by a brokerage statement or something like that.

Then, next to the persons name, they would get a special title like "Profitable Trader" and it could go in their profile etc..

This would be inspiring to others and would help us all evaluate our performance against the group to see if we are truly doing well or not etc...

Cory uploaded his SIM sheet (although not verified) and something to the effect showing how profitable he was shows his trading style is very effective and one should listen to him etc..

Too often we got 'Advanced' Traders on the boards giving lip service to how it is 'done' and yet these people are not the most honest in their own trading.


Just in case you guys don't feel like clicking back to the first post, here you go, read the first line
Not a requirement, but a fun item that could have prizes etc..? I believe that you would attract larger #'s of people and prove the capability of the group.

There are a lot of tangents on this, but I for one enjoy seeing people who can really trade and watch their posts. I have been in the breakeven stage now for about 8 months and I believe it is a 'stage' and I plan on being over that when my subconcious makes that decision.

This is just an idea, but would love to see it!


Read the first line

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  #23 (permalink)
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Here's someone else in another forum asking for the same thing



He also asked to see a traders statement as PROOF that its possible.

When i asked him if posting a statement would be enough, then he said that no i just have to take your word for it.

He said that he's been trading for 6 years, and hasn't found anyone to be consistently profitable. So i think it all boils down to the fact that you've given up, and don't believe its gonna happen, no matter what proof is given to you( in fact, nobody even posted a statement for you to see before you blew it off, which i think was ill advised on your part).

Don't worry, i don't think anyone is going to post a statement anymore anyways.
Just for the record, i completely disagree with you guys. Im not even selling anything, but a statement shows proof that you can at least make money in one month. Most people can't do that. I want to see one vendor posting his statement for one month showing he's profitable. He can open a separate account, fund it with $10k, trade 2 cars, and show it as proof. Then he can close the account. Your willing to pay this much money to these guys, just to see the sim platform on their screen. I wouldn't pay someone that much money to see their sim account.

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  #24 (permalink)
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we all understand the thread - we just have different takes on it



Michael.H View Post
OK, i think you guys read my statement, and they started commenting on that without understanding what this is all about. Go to the very first post, and thats how it all started. Nobody came in here to say im gonna post my statement just for the hell of it.

The person that started this thread didn't believe that ANYONE can make money day trading, and he simply asked for the PNL statement of "anyone", because he said," If someone would just post that, it would rekindle my hopes that you can make money trading". So to help him out, i said that makes sense.
Now you guys are going on all these tangents about how its showing off, and even the original thread starter agrees with that now( which really doesn't make sense to me anymore, since he was the one that requested it).....

Nobody is asking you guys to post your accounts, and i think this thread has become useless since i don't even know the intentions of the person who started this thread anymore.


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  #25 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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tigertrader View Post
You may have read somewhere that trading is a zero sum game, and for every winner there is a loser. But, I don't believe that you are going to be on the other side of every trade I make, nor will any other single individual. This isn't chess where we are competing against each other one-on-one. Even if it was, and I was a master chess player who taught you everything I knew, it doesn't mean you would be able to defeat me.

Sharing my knowledge and experience with you, isn't going to diminish my success.


If you look at this from a viewpoint of game theory:


Trading the Pits

You should not share your knowledge as this would mainly benefit your (few) adversaries. The dominant strategy is to shut your mouth.

If you are disclosing your knowledge to a limited number of friends you expect them to return the favor. This becomes what is called an iterated prisoner's dilemma as described by Robert Axelrod. Co-operative strategies (being friends) naturally emerge from a tit-fot-tat type of behaviour.


Sharing Knowledge on a Forum

There is a potential prisoner's dilemma lurking somewhere as well. If you contribute to the forum, free riders and copycats may benefit from your work. However, for a rational member, this is no reason not to post:

- The forum is small compared to the whole population of traders and unlike in the pits it is highly improbable that you will ever trade against another member of the forum, so do not hesitate to make known your secrets.

- It is not easy to retrieve valuable information from a forum, there is a huge amount of crap and redundant information as well, the impact of your knowledge on the markets will be close to Zero.

- Penning down and explaining some of the main ideas facilitates the learning process, so there even is a benefit, if nobody else posts. Which explains, why some traders operate blogs.

So the forum is more than a 10,899-person*) prisoner's dilemma. The forum can obtain both a Nash equilibrium for its members and Pareto optimality for the community.

But I would neither post my P&L nor my tax returns.

*) Big Mike's has 10,899 members as per now.

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  #26 (permalink)
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Very true fat tails, but a vendor who is willing to sell his secret at 5k a pop ( or $300 a month in a room), then its justified. Don't you agree?

Besides, your showing PNL, not individual trades. Most brokerage statements don't show the trades you took in order anyways...lol

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  #27 (permalink)
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Michael.H View Post
Very true fat tails, but a vendor who is willing to sell his secret at 5k a pop ( or $300 a month in a room), then its justified. Don't you agree?

Besides, your showing PNL, not individual trades. Most brokerage statements don't show the trades you took in order anyways...lol

I think that there is no value in posting just a P&L.

(1) If you want to manage other people's money, you should have at least audited P&L's over several years.

(2) If you are a vendor and want to sell your system, you do not need them anyhow, because people will purchase your product based on other criteria. Also it would be easy to cheat. The only honest procedure that I can imagine would be

- to publish a strategy
- to show all trades in real-time in application of that strategy
- to produce a P&L summary for these trades

But then you have already given away what you want to sell.

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  #28 (permalink)
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Michael.H View Post
Very true fat tails, but a vendor who is willing to sell his secret at 5k a pop ( or $300 a month in a room), then its justified. Don't you agree?

Besides, your showing PNL, not individual trades. Most brokerage statements don't show the trades you took in order anyways...lol

Michael,

Thanks for collaborating.

I think the key to me was a mistake when I wrote "show your statement". What I meant was 'prove your profitability'. I think that would be good for new people who are 'losing their will'. I have not lost it, nor anytime soon, but it could happen someday if after some point in time I decide to give it up. I personally have had months of profitability, but not consistent to the point of actually earning a living. I am profitable for the last 2 months, but up like 1K doesn't get me very far! haha....

This was not intended to cast judgement or ridicule or provide anything other than simple inspiration to traders who want to be more/do more.

The whole point was to SIMPLY provide inspiration, nothing more, nothing to do about selling services (which could be abused to do so...) or being 'cool' or anything else.

I also agree that you will never see a VENDOR publish anything because they are most likely not profitable with their own trading. I have yet to see a vendor do so and prove that he actually makes money off of trading and these are the trades his people will take. The only example of that is the Barclay's CTA list trading OPM.

This was not intended to make other traders who would not want to show their proof (as simple as a dom visible with real account & profit) but again, just an inspirational tale so newer traders could reach for the sky much more easily.

There are few enterprises that are as segregated or isolated as trading. Not like Basketball, golf or other 'skilled professions' where you can go to a Medical School, play College sports or some other form to assess how good you are and if you can compete.

Even Lebron James had heroes growing up. Standing on the shoulders of giants is not a bad thing.

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  #29 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
Trading the Pits
You should not share your knowledge as this would mainly benefit your (few) adversaries. The dominant strategy is to shut your mouth.

Not, if I have my position on beforehand, then it's called self-fulfilling prophecy, or MAP (Mutually Assured Profit).

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  #30 (permalink)
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All valid arguments, but most traders don't go online to look for CTA's, they look for a trading rooms with a buzzer to go long or short. Thats why i encourage people to ask for some sort of proof before they shell out that much money.

The only other way to do it, is to take a personal mentorship, and pay the 5k, to find out if he's the real deal before you start trading their methods. Thats a tall order.

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  #31 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
I think that there is no value in posting just a P&L.

(1) If you want to manage other people's money, you should have at least audited P&L's over several years.

(2) If you are a vendor and want to sell your system, you do not need them anyhow, because people will purchase your product based on other criteria. Also it would be easy to cheat. The only honest procedure that I can imagine would be

- to publish a strategy
- to show all trades in real-time in application of that strategy
- to produce a P&L summary for these trades

But then you have already given away what you want to sell.

Most developers on Collective2 broadly describe, but don't publish, their strategy per se. Collective2 takes care of the posting of trades and PnL. That may not be satisfactory to people who insist on real money, not sim, trades taken by the developer, but the workings of Collective2 seem to fit your criteria in (2).

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  #32 (permalink)
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I tried putting my system on there, i can confidently say that that site is mainly bogus( unless your not day trading, meaning your holding a swing position, which in that case those system might actually work).

I can't tell you how many times i put in an order, and it never registered on their site. Then when i exit, it sends a sell order..

It took collective2 at least 2 weeks to respond when i told them that this happened.

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  #33 (permalink)
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I also get a lot of 'everything is here on Big Mikes'. Well, to save people from Vendors who are super human traders supposedly doing X $ of profit then if they saw traders actually doing it on Big Mike's it sure becomes a lot more believable.

For instance, I am new to trading, this is my first time entering a forum. Wow! Michael H. is so profitable! Wow! He is legit and real and now I can feel it. It is transparent to me that I can do what these guys are doing and voila, given the right amount of effort and dedication then I can become a very good trader like him.

Or,

Well, which of these guys are actually right? Are they all right... hmmm. Maybe I should just go to a Vendor as they seem to be so profitable and the comments on the website are great! Or this Vendor, hmmm, which vendor should I choose!

----

I would prefer they spend time developing themselves as traders then decide if they want a vendor etc.. But, my preference isn't important. Just trying to help, not hurt.

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  #34 (permalink)
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Michael.H View Post
I tried putting my system on there, i can confidently say that that site is mainly bogus( unless your not day trading, meaning your holding a swing position, which in that case those system might actually work).

I can't tell you how many times i put in an order, and it never registered on their site. Then when i exit, it sends a sell order..

It took collective2 at least 2 weeks to respond when i told them that this happened.

Yup... It doesn't work correctly.

Neither does zulutrade or any of the other web collaborative trading environments..... At least not yet.

PAMM or LAMM are the only effective trading methods that I have seen actually bring profit to my wallet. Maybe that will change in a few years as technology gets better with safeguards etc..

But, again the focus was to have credibility through the forum. Seems like a bad idea as so many are so outspoken about proving profitability. I guess that is the eternal confusion for me of why people resist transparency in politics, relationships, health etc...

Life goes on...

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  #35 (permalink)
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Michael.H View Post
I tried putting my system on there, i can confidently say that that site is mainly bogus( unless your not day trading, meaning your holding a swing position, which in that case those system might actually work).

I can't tell you how many times i put in an order, and it never registered on their site. Then when i exit, it sends a sell order..

It took collective2 at least 2 weeks to respond when i told them that this happened.

Your experience and observations are legit. Nonetheless, it is one of the bigger marketplaces for system shopping. Replicating short term day trades is not doable unless the subscriber has access to the developer's software or server residing at the broker.

Any developer seriously considering this type of service should also check out Attain and Striker.

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  #36 (permalink)
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Personally, I could care less if Fat Tails, Gomi, Big Mike, or anyone else, makes money or not; as long as they bring something of value to the table. If you need to see other people's success to inspire your own success, then it means you are motivated by envy, and not self-fulfillment. It also means, you probably won't succeed.

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  #37 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Personally, I could care less if Fat Tails, Gomi, Big Mike, or anyone else, makes money or not; as long as they bring something of value to the table. If you need to see other people's success to inspire your own success, then it means you are motivated by envy, and not self-fulfillment. It also means, you are not going to succeed.

Thanks. Gosh, comments like "It also means, you are not going to succeed."

Wow... I see you have made up your mind and decided who will and won't be successful doing things in life.

I believe trading is like just about everything. Yes, if you compete with everyone else, all the time you will end up empty inside no doubt, but that doesn't mean you will end up with an empty checkbook. Not that I am promoting either.

I disagree with you immensely when you say that by looking at others is only working off of ENVY. I honestly don't think you are understanding the point or you would not say that, but I have written plenty so I am not the best writer or explainer of my ideas, so I give up.

I have made millions of $'s a couple of times in my life. Each time, EGO based and competing with others and always having to have others show me the way. However, without those examples, then I would not have had the vision to create that wealth on my own. I would have had the same vision as I ate and drank the same 'medicine' that society handed me readily available.

I do believe not everyone has the same innate abilities and some require more leading, while others are good at starting and others finishing and even others with just the vision.

Look back at your post and I think you MAY find it 'limiting' in how you believe or perceive others and their abilities. But, I do appreciate your perspective as it is always good to see as many as you can to understand things a bit better. I applaud you for chiming in and thanks.

Good advice is always good advice, but to me, I listen only to people who have done it. (That is ONLY ME or MY OPINION)

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  #38 (permalink)
 
 
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I think when people say that everything is here on futures.io (formerly BMT) they are referring to indicators that you are being charged hundred if not thousands for by some vendors... that has always been my understanding. At the same time, there is a lot of knowledge on the threads, one just has to spend some time reading and making the determination if it adds value or not... eventually one realizes there is no magic indicator, but only understanding the markets and their constituents is what grants you success..

Also, how would someone else's being profitable help you, if that person was not to teach you or even guide you? if he decided to guide you, does that mean you will succeed as well? Why do you need to know others can succeed for you to succeed? I think that a master can teach a disciple, and that does not mean that disciple will become a master himself.. therefore, success from one person might not mean success to the other...

on another point; one doesnt have to loose thousands to learn to trade.. one just need to find the right instrument on which to trade that his/her circumstances permit it.. I am still a firm believer that Sim trading teaches very little... you can take $30K and day trade equities risking $100 per day max loss and learn to trade that way, and then migrate to futures... or pick forex and work with micro lots... again, until you know how to trade.. IMO sim and real money are two completely different states of minds.. and there is no way to avoid your internal compass from knowing one has no impact and the other one does.

FatTails... I am skeptical about game theory applying to futures when the players are that many... hard to achieve any equilibrium.. specially Nash's, given one doesnt always know the strategy of others so it can be taken into account.. just my 2 cents.

Lastly; in this age of photoshop... one can post any tax returns or account statements showing amazing returns.. heck, one can even have a site coded that will replicate an account management platform from one of the FCM's and alter one's record for show... so caveat emptor... none of those things mean much in the end.


bluemele View Post
I also get a lot of 'everything is here on Big Mikes'. Well, to save people from Vendors who are super human traders supposedly doing X $ of profit then if they saw traders actually doing it on Big Mike's it sure becomes a lot more believable.

For instance, I am new to trading, this is my first time entering a forum. Wow! Michael H. is so profitable! Wow! He is legit and real and now I can feel it. It is transparent to me that I can do what these guys are doing and voila, given the right amount of effort and dedication then I can become a very good trader like him.

Or,

Well, which of these guys are actually right? Are they all right... hmmm. Maybe I should just go to a Vendor as they seem to be so profitable and the comments on the website are great! Or this Vendor, hmmm, which vendor should I choose!

----

I would prefer they spend time developing themselves as traders then decide if they want a vendor etc.. But, my preference isn't important. Just trying to help, not hurt.


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  #39 (permalink)
 
 
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bluemele View Post
Good advice is always good advice, but to me, I listen only to people who have done it. (That is ONLY ME or MY OPINION)

I agree with that point of view... it is always best to learn from someone with experience on the subject... the trick comes in being able to evaluate correctly that experience...

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  #40 (permalink)
the coin hunter
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cory View Post
I will do one better. By end of year I will upload live performance that my student trades for me and what not

didn't know that performance report tied the machine that does the actual trades this will have to do for now
Forums - balance

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  #41 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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tigertrader View Post
Not, if I have my position on beforehand, then it's called self-fulfilling prophecy, or MAP (Mutually Assured Profit).

This confirms the assumption that I made on feedback from knowledge sharing. But this example is not that much about sharing knowledge than playing an oligopoly game. Getting in first is half the profit, getting out first the other half.

Today's move in sugar futures probably made some of the trend followers cry.

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  #42 (permalink)
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I have been playing with the idea of documenting my performance for others to view myself lately, not to brag or start a signal service in the future, but to make exchange of setups, tricks etc. with other traders easier.

If you could be somewhat sure that I'm a profitable trader, you might be more inclined to share some of your wisdom with me knowing that you could get useful info in return, right ?

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  #43 (permalink)
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futures.io (formerly BMT) was (is) built on the pay it forward concept.



It means that as you contribute something positive to the community, it will come back to you and benefit you in the end. It does not mean a 1-to-1 sharing ratio where you only contribute what you get back, or only get back what you contribute.

The more involved you are in the community, the more you help new traders, the more you talk about methods and risk management and money management, psychology, the more you discuss market types, patterns, behaviors, etc etc -- the more you learn about yourself, the more you reinforce your own beliefs or call them into question. This is the fundamental difference between futures.io (formerly BMT) and other sites. Other sites are all about "why should I", futures.io (formerly BMT) is all about "here you go, glad to help".

I encourage you to start your own trading journal here on futures.io (formerly BMT). It will help your trading! And, you can post screen shots and statements there if you like to provide yourself more accountability. Many traders will find this information helpful, sure, but you are posting it for yourself as well.

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  #44 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
I have been playing with the idea of documenting my performance for others to view myself lately, not to brag or start a signal service in the future, but to make exchange of setups, tricks etc. with other traders easier.

If you could be somewhat sure that I'm a profitable trader, you might be more inclined to share some of your wisdom with me knowing that you could get useful info in return, right ?

Souns like a GREAT idea

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  #45 (permalink)
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Hello Mike,

I agree with you, the 1-to1 sharing ratio runs counter to the idea of a good discussion forum and it's not my plan to only share with those who are supposedly profitable. After all, I'm still a novice and probably always will be.

I hope to find the time to share sth. useful on futures.io (formerly BMT) in the coming months !










Big Mike View Post
futures.io (formerly BMT) was (is) built on the pay it forward concept.



It means that as you contribute something positive to the community, it will come back to you and benefit you in the end. It does not mean a 1-to-1 sharing ratio where you only contribute what you get back, or only get back what you contribute.

The more involved you are in the community, the more you help new traders, the more you talk about methods and risk management and money management, psychology, the more you discuss market types, patterns, behaviors, etc etc -- the more you learn about yourself, the more you reinforce your own beliefs or call them into question. This is the fundamental difference between futures.io (formerly BMT) and other sites. Other sites are all about "why should I", futures.io (formerly BMT) is all about "here you go, glad to help".

I encourage you to start your own trading journal here on futures.io (formerly BMT). It will help your trading! And, you can post screen shots and statements there if you like to provide yourself more accountability. Many traders will find this information helpful, sure, but you are posting it for yourself as well.

Mike


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  #46 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Hey, while we're at it, why don't we post our tax returns?

The majority of my trading career, my trading was on display, and to a certain degree my P&L was pretty well known. When you are trading in a pit, you spend all day trying to disguise or conceal what your position is, so other traders don't take advantage of that knowledge, but you could see for yourself how big other traders traded, and how they traded.

You could also discern what kind of day they had by simply asking them , " how was your day?" The standard reply for a bad day, (and it's none of your business) was, "at least I got my health." A really good day might elicit, " I killed 'em." Traders rarely divulged to other traders, except for their best buddies, what was their exact P&L... because it wasn't really your business. However, exact P&Ls and even year-ends had a way of becoming known, because clerks always gossiped to other clerks.

Unless, a trader is trying to establish a track record, because he wants to manage OPM, I see no reason why he would want to publish his P&L. It's really nobody's business, except for the I.R.S, and he has nothing to prove to anyone, nor does he owe it to anyone. I think it's the readers responsibility to filter whom and what he wants to read and believe, and whom and what he wants to dismiss.

An alternative to publishing one's P&L would be for Mike to have an incentive based trading contest, where everybody starts with the same amount of money and there is a leadership board, like others have suggested. But if you are a serious and active trader, I don't think you will have the time for such a contest.

This is the only "performance" based endeavor where the supposedly successful people don't want to show proof of their success. mmmmmm, I wonder.....

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  #47 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
This is the only "performance" based endeavor where the supposedly successful people don't want to show proof of their success. mmmmmm, I wonder.....

I disagree with your statement. Take a trip to Wall Street or The Hampton's. And, if you truly have a desire to improve your own personal trading, I beg you to please move past this obsession of how much other people make or why they won't share their most intimate details with you online in a public forum.

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  #48 (permalink)
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Sometimes, I wish I had some other strategies to compare performance metrics.

I don't know why, but I still continually search the interweb for terms like "return retracement ratio" and "RINA index" and "total efficiency", "entry efficiency" etc.

Sometimes it's just out of curiosity, but mostly I'm trying to guage if my strategies are above par, below par, etc.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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  #49 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received


Big Mike View Post
I disagree with your statement. Take a trip to Wall Street or The Hampton's. And, if you truly have a desire to improve your own personal trading, I beg you to please move past this obsession of how much other people make or why they won't share their most intimate details with you online in a public forum.

Mike

I think most people realize there's no "upside" in proving themselves on an internet chat forum. Either you believe someone or you don't.

I think that no one is going to lose any sleep if members of an internet chat forum doubt their prowess or sincerety.

Every forum has posers.

I also think a lot of guys on futures.io (formerly BMT) are trying to pay it forward as you said....but are hesitant to divulge intimate details about trading, just because again...even if there's an ounce of downside, there's little to no appreciable upside (of revealing your EXACT strategy/method along with your profits).

I find myself, even being obscure and indirect with my code consultant....even though we have signed agreements of discretion. It's just better the less he knows as far as specifics go.

Who knows, maybe I'm kidding myself....maybe my strategies and ideas aren't worth as much as I think....but if there's even a chance that I'd lose money because others would be camping in my spot.....

I guess the realization we all have to come to is that the "pay it forward" mentality will help on this site and benefit us all in the long run.

However, I also feel like some information that's revealed, and not "earned" through sweat and tears is of little use. Take Bugs journal for example. The guy could be a soothsayer or a swami or just really good. Either way, I find it curious that people keep feeding the animals when it comes to these mysterious numbers he publishes.

I personally would never trade them, even if they were "magical" (which I'm not convinced that they are). Simply for the fact that if I can't learn the underlying principles and how to generate them myself...I'm relying on someone else to make money and if that guy up and dies or moves to antirctica, now I have to go back to my own "systems."

In essence, part of the real value of learning is that you have a much more intimate knowledge of understanding and how to actually apply things when you discover them for yourself (with a little help maybe) vice someone just publishing a profitable approach.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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