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Walk the Walk, traders showing their profits and sim/demo
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Walk the Walk, traders showing their profits and sim/demo

  #21 (permalink)
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OK, i think you guys read my statement, and they started commenting on that without understanding what this is all about. Go to the very first post, and thats how it all started. Nobody came in here to say im gonna post my statement just for the hell of it.

The person that started this thread didn't believe that ANYONE can make money day trading, and he simply asked for the PNL statement of "anyone", because he said," If someone would just post that, it would rekindle my hopes that you can make money trading". So to help him out, i said that makes sense.
Now you guys are going on all these tangents about how its showing off, and even the original thread starter agrees with that now( which really doesn't make sense to me anymore, since he was the one that requested it).....

Nobody is asking you guys to post your accounts, and i think this thread has become useless since i don't even know the intentions of the person who started this thread anymore.

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  #22 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
I would absolutely find it amazingly interesting if traders could upload their daily/weekly or monthly profits to a place where they could all be viewed for profitability.

Maybe not actual $'s per se, but more like a trademanager analysis report showing an ACTUAL LIVE OR SIM account and backed up by a brokerage statement or something like that.

Then, next to the persons name, they would get a special title like "Profitable Trader" and it could go in their profile etc..

This would be inspiring to others and would help us all evaluate our performance against the group to see if we are truly doing well or not etc...

Cory uploaded his SIM sheet (although not verified) and something to the effect showing how profitable he was shows his trading style is very effective and one should listen to him etc..

Too often we got 'Advanced' Traders on the boards giving lip service to how it is 'done' and yet these people are not the most honest in their own trading.


Just in case you guys don't feel like clicking back to the first post, here you go, read the first line
Not a requirement, but a fun item that could have prizes etc..? I believe that you would attract larger #'s of people and prove the capability of the group.

There are a lot of tangents on this, but I for one enjoy seeing people who can really trade and watch their posts. I have been in the breakeven stage now for about 8 months and I believe it is a 'stage' and I plan on being over that when my subconcious makes that decision.

This is just an idea, but would love to see it!


Read the first line

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  #23 (permalink)
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Here's someone else in another forum asking for the same thing

https://futures.io/vendors-commercial-products/6724-uncle-mikes-2.html#post85221

He also asked to see a traders statement as PROOF that its possible.

When i asked him if posting a statement would be enough, then he said that no i just have to take your word for it.

He said that he's been trading for 6 years, and hasn't found anyone to be consistently profitable. So i think it all boils down to the fact that you've given up, and don't believe its gonna happen, no matter what proof is given to you( in fact, nobody even posted a statement for you to see before you blew it off, which i think was ill advised on your part).

Don't worry, i don't think anyone is going to post a statement anymore anyways.
Just for the record, i completely disagree with you guys. Im not even selling anything, but a statement shows proof that you can at least make money in one month. Most people can't do that. I want to see one vendor posting his statement for one month showing he's profitable. He can open a separate account, fund it with $10k, trade 2 cars, and show it as proof. Then he can close the account. Your willing to pay this much money to these guys, just to see the sim platform on their screen. I wouldn't pay someone that much money to see their sim account.

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  #24 (permalink)
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walk the walk

we all understand the thread - we just have different takes on it



Michael.H View Post
OK, i think you guys read my statement, and they started commenting on that without understanding what this is all about. Go to the very first post, and thats how it all started. Nobody came in here to say im gonna post my statement just for the hell of it.

The person that started this thread didn't believe that ANYONE can make money day trading, and he simply asked for the PNL statement of "anyone", because he said," If someone would just post that, it would rekindle my hopes that you can make money trading". So to help him out, i said that makes sense.
Now you guys are going on all these tangents about how its showing off, and even the original thread starter agrees with that now( which really doesn't make sense to me anymore, since he was the one that requested it).....

Nobody is asking you guys to post your accounts, and i think this thread has become useless since i don't even know the intentions of the person who started this thread anymore.


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  #25 (permalink)
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Is this forum a prisoner's dilemma?


tigertrader View Post
You may have read somewhere that trading is a zero sum game, and for every winner there is a loser. But, I don't believe that you are going to be on the other side of every trade I make, nor will any other single individual. This isn't chess where we are competing against each other one-on-one. Even if it was, and I was a master chess player who taught you everything I knew, it doesn't mean you would be able to defeat me.

Sharing my knowledge and experience with you, isn't going to diminish my success.


If you look at this from a viewpoint of game theory:


Trading the Pits

You should not share your knowledge as this would mainly benefit your (few) adversaries. The dominant strategy is to shut your mouth.

If you are disclosing your knowledge to a limited number of friends you expect them to return the favor. This becomes what is called an iterated prisoner's dilemma as described by Robert Axelrod. Co-operative strategies (being friends) naturally emerge from a tit-fot-tat type of behaviour.


Sharing Knowledge on a Forum

There is a potential prisoner's dilemma lurking somewhere as well. If you contribute to the forum, free riders and copycats may benefit from your work. However, for a rational member, this is no reason not to post:

- The forum is small compared to the whole population of traders and unlike in the pits it is highly improbable that you will ever trade against another member of the forum, so do not hesitate to make known your secrets.

- It is not easy to retrieve valuable information from a forum, there is a huge amount of crap and redundant information as well, the impact of your knowledge on the markets will be close to Zero.

- Penning down and explaining some of the main ideas facilitates the learning process, so there even is a benefit, if nobody else posts. Which explains, why some traders operate blogs.

So the forum is more than a 10,899-person*) prisoner's dilemma. The forum can obtain both a Nash equilibrium for its members and Pareto optimality for the community.

But I would neither post my P&L nor my tax returns.

*) Big Mike's has 10,899 members as per now.


Last edited by Fat Tails; December 30th, 2010 at 05:22 PM.
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  #26 (permalink)
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Very true fat tails, but a vendor who is willing to sell his secret at 5k a pop ( or $300 a month in a room), then its justified. Don't you agree?

Besides, your showing PNL, not individual trades. Most brokerage statements don't show the trades you took in order anyways...lol

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  #27 (permalink)
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Michael.H View Post
Very true fat tails, but a vendor who is willing to sell his secret at 5k a pop ( or $300 a month in a room), then its justified. Don't you agree?

Besides, your showing PNL, not individual trades. Most brokerage statements don't show the trades you took in order anyways...lol

I think that there is no value in posting just a P&L.

(1) If you want to manage other people's money, you should have at least audited P&L's over several years.

(2) If you are a vendor and want to sell your system, you do not need them anyhow, because people will purchase your product based on other criteria. Also it would be easy to cheat. The only honest procedure that I can imagine would be

- to publish a strategy
- to show all trades in real-time in application of that strategy
- to produce a P&L summary for these trades

But then you have already given away what you want to sell.

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  #28 (permalink)
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Michael.H View Post
Very true fat tails, but a vendor who is willing to sell his secret at 5k a pop ( or $300 a month in a room), then its justified. Don't you agree?

Besides, your showing PNL, not individual trades. Most brokerage statements don't show the trades you took in order anyways...lol

Michael,

Thanks for collaborating.

I think the key to me was a mistake when I wrote "show your statement". What I meant was 'prove your profitability'. I think that would be good for new people who are 'losing their will'. I have not lost it, nor anytime soon, but it could happen someday if after some point in time I decide to give it up. I personally have had months of profitability, but not consistent to the point of actually earning a living. I am profitable for the last 2 months, but up like 1K doesn't get me very far! haha....

This was not intended to cast judgement or ridicule or provide anything other than simple inspiration to traders who want to be more/do more.

The whole point was to SIMPLY provide inspiration, nothing more, nothing to do about selling services (which could be abused to do so...) or being 'cool' or anything else.

I also agree that you will never see a VENDOR publish anything because they are most likely not profitable with their own trading. I have yet to see a vendor do so and prove that he actually makes money off of trading and these are the trades his people will take. The only example of that is the Barclay's CTA list trading OPM.

This was not intended to make other traders who would not want to show their proof (as simple as a dom visible with real account & profit) but again, just an inspirational tale so newer traders could reach for the sky much more easily.

There are few enterprises that are as segregated or isolated as trading. Not like Basketball, golf or other 'skilled professions' where you can go to a Medical School, play College sports or some other form to assess how good you are and if you can compete.

Even Lebron James had heroes growing up. Standing on the shoulders of giants is not a bad thing.

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  #29 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
Trading the Pits
You should not share your knowledge as this would mainly benefit your (few) adversaries. The dominant strategy is to shut your mouth.

Not, if I have my position on beforehand, then it's called self-fulfilling prophecy, or MAP (Mutually Assured Profit).

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  #30 (permalink)
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All valid arguments, but most traders don't go online to look for CTA's, they look for a trading rooms with a buzzer to go long or short. Thats why i encourage people to ask for some sort of proof before they shell out that much money.

The only other way to do it, is to take a personal mentorship, and pay the 5k, to find out if he's the real deal before you start trading their methods. Thats a tall order.

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