I think this thread is very funny. At first, you guys post, "hey if these guys are profitable, what do they have to hide? Why don't they show their statements to prove it? I just want to see a statement to see if its even possible" So i was, you're right. Thats perfectly logical, you want proof.
Now your saying, "well if they're putting their statements up, they want to sell you something"....lol
Im not gonna continue any further,and I'm gonna leave this thread with one final note. Anyone here selling something has to be identified as a vendor, and they cannot self promote.
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I know traders who are profitable and have been for a long time. And there are some profitable traders on futures.io (formerly BMT). They are usually not that boastful to want to show people how well they are doing. They are more likely to trade and go on vacation or spend time with their families. MOST would not want to answer questions from a board about what they are doing. Some would , but most are just happy to trade and post occasionally.
I am saying that the people that can trade and make a living at it usually don't go around telling others how great they are nor do they need to. They just trade. ( I have noticed that it seems successful traders do have a small group of friends they will talk and share with. )
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Personally I don't think it will be that useful. We all have different risk profiles, trading styles, and account sizes. I beat my target this year (800 basis points above the risk-free rate) by a good margin and with acceptable drawdown. That's my style, and my current comfort zone.
If some forum members doubled their money, does that make them traders I want to emulate? Probably not. Because that is not my style.
I think most can see through bs here and filter out the noise. A pissing contest based on account statements won't necesarily improve the content of this already outstanding forum.
My 2 cents...
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Hey, while we're at it, why don't we post our tax returns?
The majority of my trading career, my trading was on display, and to a certain degree my P&L was pretty well known. When you are trading in a pit, you spend all day trying to disguise or conceal what your position is, so other traders don't take advantage of that knowledge, but you could see for yourself how big other traders traded, and how they traded.
You could also discern what kind of day they had by simply asking them , " how was your day?" The standard reply for a bad day, (and it's none of your business) was, "at least I got my health." A really good day might elicit, " I killed 'em." Traders rarely divulged to other traders, except for their best buddies, what was their exact P&L... because it wasn't really your business. However, exact P&Ls and even year-ends had a way of becoming known, because clerks always gossiped to other clerks.
Unless, a trader is trying to establish a track record, because he wants to manage OPM, I see no reason why he would want to publish his P&L. It's really nobody's business, except for the I.R.S, and he has nothing to prove to anyone, nor does he owe it to anyone. I think it's the readers responsibility to filter whom and what he wants to read and believe, and whom and what he wants to dismiss.
An alternative to publishing one's P&L would be for Mike to have an incentive based trading contest, where everybody starts with the same amount of money and there is a leadership board, like others have suggested. But if you are a serious and active trader, I don't think you will have the time for such a contest.
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I concur with some of your statements. I am sure there are a lot of people on futures.io (formerly BMT) that post for the ego trip, that more than likely have never been out of sim and yet they are "profitable". I laugh when I read on someone's post who is learning, how they want to be a coach to other traders; when they are not yet consistenly profitable themselves nor have their own emotions under control.
At the same time, there are those that are truly profitable with real money and dont post as much and keep their success quiet (in other words, they dont boast how great of a trader they are.) some might be interested on mentoring you as a way to give back, others might just not care at all and might offer you some help but desist whenever you think you know it all and contradict them; their time is better spend on other things.
I personally find it that I learn from both type of posters on this board. The main reason I participate on this board is to express my views and take from others points of view and add it to my own. In my opinion, it is easy to tell when someone is not being transparent with their success, as it will just show on their views. When I express my views I force myself to follow it; even though the posting here is anonymous, I know people who will more than likely read them, so to have said something and then do something else would not add credibility to me as an individual and rather undermine my trust worthyness to my friends. If my views, or understanding giving way to a view is wrong or inadequate, I change it and formulate a new view. As such I take from both, posers and realist posters... I can certainly learn from both behaviours and apply them.
as one last note; I would never trust anyone's sim results; to me those are not real and regardless of what one might think, one wont treat them the same as the same pressure does not exists.
All platforms are inadequate when it comes to sim. Sim is only to get to know a platform. I have only came across 3 platforms available to retail that close to simulate a proper (and I use that word very liberally) fill: CTS T4, CQG, XTrader. all other results are suspect.
Trading REAL MONEY is way different than sim. Completely different emotions involved. I test crazyness in sim. Averaging down to understand why someone would do that or if I am ever in that state of mind, that I do it right (though in reality, there is no right way, just take the loss, you were wrong). Scaling in and out with different contract sizes, what are the P&L Swings like if I am carrying 50 contracts, is it reasonable to carry X number of contracts, with what account size should I do it, etc.
as usual, just my point of view... I am not advocating that you should gamble with $10K on the futures market, but that rather $10K in sim is not the same as $10K of your hard earned money. There are ways to get started trading that limit your risks and allow your account to survive while learning; not as sexy as trading futures, but wont leave you standing naked in the middle of the street. As a buddy told me yesterday when I was complaining about how slow trading options can be and why I am so determined to be consistenly profitable with futures: "As long as you are making money, who cares how unsexy it is" ... and he is very much correct... but we are humans after all and we seek exciting things..
Last edited by sysot1t; December 30th, 2010 at 11:27 AM.
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Well, I think everyone just about chimed in. haha....
Just to be clear, the concept was not to share P&L statements to EVERYONE. That seems to be a big mis-perception.
I also agree that it could be conceived as an EGO boost, but my guess is that if that is the case, you are likely not profitable. haha...
As far as "KARMA", hmmmm... I don't think I agree with you on that since you are not doing it to 'BRAG' but to HELP.
The concept would not be MANDATORY but meant to be inspirational. And, as a trader, I do find it VERY inspirational to see others profitable when I may nor may not be. Otherwise Market Wizards wouldn't have sold many copies as well as the whole 4 minute mile story/rule.
I think it is interesting on people's perspective or reaction to this. You basically have two camps of thought but the whole purpose is to create something that would help others.
The trading contest is a great idea and I think it could be done live or sim. Maybe two leaderboards for example.
I disagree that sim is useless. If you feel it is, then it is. If a person has never traded live and lost thousands, then yes I agree that they will probably treat SIM differently than live, but once you have lost a substantial amount of $'s and realize that you have to get it right on sim, then I think you understand that there is no difference between the two mentally. Once you have the mindset of proper $ management, then it is the same in my book and I personally don't need to keep losing thousands of MORE dollars to master my practice until I get more stable. Just my opinion....
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i do wonder how much it is in a person's benefit to "share methods"/"help"
when one can only win in this game when others lose??
this is meant as a serious question - more than likely it has taken the average
trader a very long time and hard graft to get to where he or she is - unless you
are getting some gd money in return - is it even sensible to be sharing?
You may have read somewhere that trading is a zero sum game, and for every winner there is a loser. But, I don't believe that you are going to be on the other side of every trade I make, nor will any other single individual. This isn't chess where we are competing against each other one-on-one. Even if it was, and I was a master chess player who taught you everything I knew, it doesn't mean you would be able to defeat me.
Sharing my knowledge and experience with you, isn't going to diminish my success.