Scalping with a target less than stop - Traders Hideout | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Scalping with a target less than stop
Updated: Views / Replies:4,606 / 19
Created: by Twiddle Attachments:0

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Scalping with a target less than stop

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
CA
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker/Data: Velocity
Favorite Futures: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 64 given, 521 received

nobody said it was impossible. My first target is more like a scalp when i trade, because like you said, i can get it 90% of the time. But my second target is more like 3x my risk. Your going all in and all out, and if your stop is 2x of your target, then you won't make money at the end.

Your trying to go for small ticks, and there's very little room for error. Its very stressful to trade that way.

I would highly advise you to not trade the dax if you have no experience. I know someone who lost $20k trading a 1 lot in one month.. Thats not the instrument you want to start with.
Your doing exactly what every new traders does when they start, think about how much money they can make trading a highly volatile instrument like that.
Start learning about market profile, footprint... Do NOT use oscillators, candlestick patterns or chart pattern formations to make trading decision( i know im gonna get burned for that)... These esoteric methods don't have a big enough edge for intra day trading.
Even big mike uses simple price action, such as double top, higher high, and higher low..etc
He doesn't trade head and shoulders pert plus patterns.


Last edited by Michael.H; November 26th, 2010 at 05:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Michael.H for this post:
 
  #12 (permalink)
Elite Member
Sydney, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: Mirus
Favorite Futures: FDAX
 
Posts: 139 since May 2010
Thanks: 150 given, 94 received

Thanks for the advice Michael H.

The reason I have picked the DAX is due to the time it is trading. It fires up exactly when I start my trading hours. Living in Aussie there is a limited choice of things worth trading. Not the best of reason i know.

But you are right, it is not the instrument for beginners. So I am kind of stuck, to trade it, or not to trade it.

I have spent a year studying it, and my trading methods are based around high probability scalps, and lower probability large moves but with a huge payoff if they turn out. What I focus on is what I feel the sentiment behind the market is, and what it "tends" to do in certain timeframes. I do not use any indicators, as I feel the are just one dimension of what it already plain to see.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Twiddle for this post:
 
  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
CA
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker/Data: Velocity
Favorite Futures: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 64 given, 521 received


if you honestly have a years worth of trading experience on this instrument, and your making money on sim, im not gonna stop you, just follow the same rules. Start out with 1 car, and move up....

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Michael.H for this post:
 
  #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Quebec
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader wt Rancho Dinero's profiling tools
Broker/Data: Stage 5 trading/AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, YM
 
trendisyourfriend's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,698 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 3,041 given, 4,498 received


Twiddle View Post
Scalping with a target less than stop

Does anyone here do it successfully? Or is it strictly a no no?

I have a question for you. Why would you use a stop bigger than your target considering that when an opportunity occurs it should offer a bigger reward. A classic example, price makes a certain move to the upside at the opening, it retraces 61.8% (approximately) and you get a reversal bar to the upside. The 61.8% matches with a daily pivot. A quick visual evaluation would reveal that if you enter here to the upside, the risk may be small (a few ticks below the daily pivot) but the reward if price re-test the previous high may be seducing. This type of evaluation is quickly done and if repeated should provide a high level of success consequently adding to your long term edge. There is no reason to use a stop larger than your target, never unless you like russian roulette.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to trendisyourfriend for this post:
 
  #15 (permalink)
Elite Member
Sydney, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: Mirus
Favorite Futures: FDAX
 
Posts: 139 since May 2010
Thanks: 150 given, 94 received


Michael.H View Post
if you honestly have a years worth of trading experience on this instrument, and your making money on sim, im not gonna stop you, just follow the same rules. Start out with 1 car, and move up....


Cheers, I have started trading live using CFDs, $1 per tick, going well so far, despite giving the CFD provider 3 ticks of any trade. Ouch. (CFDs are not worth trading in my opinion, I am only doing so for the chance to trade tiny amounts to learn, and also the provider has the SPI (Australian index) which I have noticed has regular patterns I plan to exploit)

Definitely planning to take it easy for the first few months of live futures. Really don't wanna lose 20k in one month.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Twiddle for this post:
 
  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
Sydney, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: Mirus
Favorite Futures: FDAX
 
Posts: 139 since May 2010
Thanks: 150 given, 94 received


trendisyourfriend View Post
I have a question for you. Why would you use a stop bigger than your target considering that when an opportunity occurs it should offer a bigger reward. A classic example, price makes a certain move to the upside at the opening, it retraces 61.8% (approximately) and you get a reversal bar to the upside. The 61.8% matches with a daily pivot. A quick visual evaluation would reveal that if you enter here to the upside, the risk may be small (a few ticks below the daily pivot) but the reward if price re-test the previous high may be seducing. This type of evaluation is quickly done and if repeated should provide a high level of success consequently adding to your long term edge. There is no reason to use a stop larger than your target, never unless you like russian roulette.


I completely agree for 90% of trading. And probably for 100% in fact. What I am trying to work out is this; on a highly volatile instrument there exists within the noise an up and down frequency that can be captured extremely easily if profit targets are miniscule. What I am still trying to work out is whether or not it is worthwhile trying to capture this. I have literally thousands of these trades on sim, and it has been extremely profitable. But... live, with lag times, different fills etc.... I don't think it is gonna happen.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Twiddle for this post:
 
  #17 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,332 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 4,579 given, 10,313 received


Michael.H View Post
nobody said it was impossible. My first target is more like a scalp when i trade, because like you said, i can get it 90% of the time. But my second target is more like 3x my risk. Your going all in and all out, and if your stop is 2x of your target, then you won't make money at the end.

Your trying to go for small ticks, and there's very little room for error. Its very stressful to trade that way.

I would highly advise you to not trade the dax if you have no experience. I know someone who lost $20k trading a 1 lot in one month.. Thats not the instrument you want to start with.
Your doing exactly what every new traders does when they start, think about how much money they can make trading a highly volatile instrument like that.
Start learning about market profile, footprint... Do NOT use oscillators, candlestick patterns or chart pattern formations to make trading decision( i know im gonna get burned for that)... These esoteric methods don't have a big enough edge for intra day trading.
Even big mike uses simple price action, such as double top, higher high, and higher low..etc
He doesn't trade head and shoulders pert plus patterns.

can you feel the heat? lol

no, there are some very good points. nothing to argue at all.

but I do like to look at certain chart patterns on longer time frames. it helps me to find important key levels. but also I'm not using those pattern to take a trade, it's more like an alert.

also I would be a little careful about choosing a bigger target just to have a better r/r ratio. maybe it would be smarter to have a smaller stop. it all depends. it can be very frustrating to have a target of 12 ticks and the market goes 11 ticks and then turns around and you end up with a loser. that's why I like to trade multiple contracts. with es my first target is 3 or 4 ticks (depends on volatility) and then I can move the stop to -3 or -4 ticks. and the second target is about 10 to 12 ticks.

two of my important rules are, never let a winning trade turn into a loser and never add to a losing trade.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Silvester17 for this post:
 
  #18 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chicago, IL
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Kinetick Ninja Trader <7>
Broker/Data: Ninja & IB
Favorite Futures: YM & Equities & Options & Mutual Funds
 
Posts: 174 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 56 given, 82 received

Why not go for a 1:1 ratio? If you're going for 3 tick make your stop loss 3 ticks and enter the market with 3 or 5 tick off set on your dom? So you pull the trigger and you won't get immediately filled you'll place a limit order off set from the Bid/Ask. If you're direction is correct, long or short, there's a good chance for a fill and less distance to travel before your target.

Since you're trading intrabar noise that might just work for you. And skew the risk reward a bit in your favor.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to mainstream for this post:
 
  #19 (permalink)
Elite Member
madrid spain
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: nt
Favorite Futures: None.
 
alejo's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,311 since Apr 2013
Thanks: 16,557 given, 643 received

mainstream zn trader i have a question


mainstream View Post
Why not go for a 1:1 ratio? If you're going for 3 tick make your stop loss 3 ticks and enter the market with 3 or 5 tick off set on your dom? So you pull the trigger and you won't get immediately filled you'll place a limit order off set from the Bid/Ask. If you're direction is correct, long or short, there's a good chance for a fill and less distance to travel before your target.

Since you're trading intrabar noise that might just work for you. And skew the risk reward a bit in your favor.

could you take a look to my journal on zn, to give me your opinion about the difference i have between sim/live and what do you think about the 2 targets stategy i was testing?3l +2l +1 1l +2, and 4l 2l+1 1l+2 and 1l+3
thanks

alejo

La lucha es de igual a igual contra uno mismo
The fight is fair against oneself
Reply With Quote
 
  #20 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Brisbane, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: IB + NT
Favorite Futures: Kospi
 
Posts: 5 since Nov 2013
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


It can work as evidenced by the legendary trader Marty Schwartz....in his book he mentions 0.8R returns but his winning percentage is 70%+.....if you cannot get your percentage Win rate above 50% is a sure way to the poor house.

It can be done by "normal" guys as evidenced by my last 2 days trading with 80% accuracy over 15trades....not sure if I can sustain that pace.
I'm not sure if it's really the best way to trade but only you will know that.

All the best.

G


Last edited by Godzilla; November 20th, 2013 at 02:02 AM. Reason: typo 2
Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > Scalping with a target less than stop

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scalping the DOW sillykiddo Traders Hideout 81 October 25th, 2014 12:43 AM
Get better entries with Stop/Target or Minimum RR Zone check gomi The Elite Circle 16 June 2nd, 2011 12:41 AM
Rockwell ADR stop and target indicaor - not calculating correctly Jason11 NinjaTrader Programming 3 March 19th, 2011 07:53 PM
momentum scalping cory The Elite Circle 9 October 21st, 2010 08:21 PM
Stop Loss/Target & SendMail() dsraider NinjaTrader Programming 4 May 30th, 2010 07:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:13 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-17 in 0.15 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.227.51.103