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Funded Trader platforms

  #31 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
Posts: 439 since Aug 2018
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Interesting discussion here where many of the comments echoes the same view I've expressed earlier.

Basically, that many or most of these firms are bucket shops and are in the business of collecting fees, not funding traders.

Sure, it may be cheaper than blowing up your own account, but with your credit card set up I imagine it's only too easy to hit that reset button and all of a sudden you spent a bit more than your initial $150 anyway.

I'd love to hear an update on the guy who's trading 20 copy accounts.

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  #32 (permalink)
 TP10 
Vancouver, Canada
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, TradingView,
Trading: Futures, Forex
Frequency: Daily
Duration: Hours
Posts: 33 since Jul 2021
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josh View Post
Let's consider a more optimized scenario, because $99 a month is too much, and $3000 LL with a $6000 PT is not optimum at all.

Consider instead a $50k evaluation account with a $2500 loss limit and a $3000 profit goal. As you mentioned, this is really a $2500 account, with a $3000 profit goal. Let's imagine you can get this configuration for $33 per month, because you can.

IMO, the only issue here is time.

Consider a strategy with only a 40% win rate, 2:1 R/R, and a whopping 4% risk per trade. If we call 90% drawdown "blown", then the risk of ruin calculation, even accounting for a trailing drawdown, is about 0.1% (simulating with 1000 trades). So, your risk of blowing up is miniscule. The question is, can you really get paid 2:1 and do so 40% of the time?

How long will it take you reach the $3000 profit goal? Well, that's a function of the frequency of trade opportunities. Imagine your system has a more conservative profit factor of 1.6 and you win 50% of the time. If you risk 3% per trade ($75), your average win is $120, so your expected value on any given trade you take is $22.50 ($120 * 0.5 - $75 * 0.5). If you get 2 trade opportunities per day on average, then you can expect to make $3000 in 67 trading days, which is just over 3 months. The cost would be $133. These are not some crazy, unachievable goals.

Let's imagine instead that you blow several of these accounts, say, 50 of them, costing you $2000. Well, you would have lost that money more quickly had you opened a $2000 account, almost certainly.

Does their model encourage gambling behavior? I would say so, yes. But so does trading, period. It's a world of gamblers. People blow up every day. Success is rare. At least with funding companies, people can do what is effectively simulated trading, with what's quite a small fee relative to actual trading capital they'd have to put up otherwise, with an actual opportunity to get paid for it, compared with free simulated trading which has even less accountability. There is no real support, no accountability, and yes, you are free to blow as many sim accounts as you want. But you're also free to run down to the bank and wire another $5K in every time you blow up a real account. At some point, one's own personal responsibility must kick in. No one will stop you from your own behavior.

I was once very negative about funding companies but I've changed my tune. I see them as a win-win for everyone. Traders who can do well can get paid. Traders who don't will lose less than they would have in the market. The firm gets free order flow and can use that information to make real money for themselves.

The only real downside I see is the counterparty risk, which was my main issue previously. Your counterparty in a live trade is CME. Some people think it's the trader on the other side of your trade, but it's not. CME assumes counterparty risk and guarantees it with margin. So, when live trading, your counterparty risk is zero. You WILL get paid. With a funding company, they are your counterparty, and your risk is that they won't pay you. This to me is the only real risk here.

I mostly agree. Except for the statement of counterparty risk. CME is not. FCM is initially,, for a millisecond. And the game only works for the prop shop when the tradet trades own capital in the end and pays the prop shop 10 to 25 percent for the pleasure. That is the goal.

So it is a great way for a developing trader to learn some accountability and discipline. and it also is a really super dumb way for a successful trader to throw away money to trade through a prop shop.

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  #33 (permalink)
mariafp
Annecy, France
 
Posts: 51 since Jan 2024
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TP10 View Post
Iit also is a really super dumb way for a successful trader to throw away money to trade through a prop shop.

That makes sense. Hard to see why a successful trader with funds available would want to use one anyway, and lose a share of their profits. They are targeting people without enough funds available who think (often wrongly and too optimistically) that they have the skills required to pass?

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  #34 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
Posts: 439 since Aug 2018
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mariafp View Post
That makes sense. Hard to see why a successful trader with funds available would want to use one anyway, and lose a share of their profits. They are targeting people without enough funds available who think (often wrongly and too optimistically) that they have the skills required to pass?

The way to get really, really rich (unless you have a super duper edge and even then) in this business is to trade OPM.

The problem with these firms is that as soon as you're in profit, you're never given extra funds. You're only risking your own profits/balance.

No matter how you twist and turn it, the only "risk capital" you're ever offered is the initial trailing drawdown which is typically around $3-5K which they misleadingly calls a $150K (LOL) account.

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  #35 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
Posts: 439 since Aug 2018
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Some numbers from the E2T web page:



Only 23.38 % passed in 2023. And passed doesn't mean withdrawal of profits as I'm sure most blow their account before withdrawing any money.

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  #36 (permalink)
 Valjean 
Indianapolis, IN
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: IBKR, TDA
Broker: IBKR, TDA
Trading: VIX
Posts: 4 since Mar 2016
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I'm a trader with an existing broker, grinding out returns in stocks and futures. Trade The Pool is intriguing as a way to increase my overall size.

I agree with the shortcomings that others have mentioned. I know that a "$160,000" trading account that I can get for $475 is really only a $3900 account, since that's what the max loss is. I think that Trade the Pool's business model is probably that <10% of people get funded, and they can use fees from people who fail to fund those traders who pass. And like another poster said, that business model works even if who pass the evaluation blow up their accounts. Anyone who is profitable is icing on the cake for them.

Nonetheless, if I run a backtest and believe I can pass more than a third of my evaluations, wouldn't this help increase my overall trading volume in a way that won't keep me up at night worrying about large losses? Am I being naive?

How many here have actually passed a Trade the Pool evaluation?

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  #37 (permalink)
mariafp
Annecy, France
 
Posts: 51 since Jan 2024
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Howard Roark View Post
passed doesn't mean withdrawal of profits

No, it certainly does not. And "23.38% passed" does not mean that 23.38% of attempts were successful. Many people try multiple accounts on multiple occasions.

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  #38 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
Posts: 439 since Aug 2018
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Correct. To be fair, that doesn't negate the services E2T offers. Could still be a valid firm.

But interesting numbers nonetheless.

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  #39 (permalink)
mariafp
Annecy, France
 
Posts: 51 since Jan 2024
Thanks Given: 135
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Howard Roark View Post
Could still be a valid firm

I agree. At the moment, I think they are probablement third on my list for "possible ones" to try. My own impression only, all information second hand, not trying to influence anyone else! (I would try them only with Ninja, I understand from several people that Finamark is a real horror.)

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  #40 (permalink)
 ZB23 
Atlanta Metro Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Rithmic API
Broker: Ironbeam
Trading: Futures: CL spreads, IR outright.
Frequency: Never
Duration: Never
Posts: 145 since Feb 2017
Thanks Given: 60
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SMCJB View Post
Great question @Big Mike

I don't participate in funded trader platforms so maybe my vote doesn't count. But the reason I would never participate is "Unrealistic rules and requirements". They are all trying to force you to trade the way they want you to trade. They automatically eliminate so many styles of trading.

edit: It's designed around 'their risk management ideals' and not 'best trading ideals'

Ditto. I've heard people say, "Well, their rules and requirements" force you to be a discipline trader. I think that is a really silly comment.

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