Order Flow Tools? Really? - futures io
futures io



Order Flow Tools? Really?


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one redbarntrades with 3 posts (0 thanks)
    2. looks_two phantomtrader with 2 posts (8 thanks)
    3. looks_3 boomer49 with 1 posts (5 thanks)
    4. looks_4 chartmojo2 with 1 posts (1 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one NondualTrader with 21 thanks per post
    2. looks_two Leep with 15 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 LastDino with 5 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 phantomtrader with 4 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 3,010 views
    2. thumb_up 84 thanks given
    3. group 362 followers
    1. forum 24 posts
    2. attach_file 4 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Order Flow Tools? Really?

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
Leep
Chicago, IL
 
 
Posts: 1 since Apr 2021
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

First time post... Over 35 years in the industry but I have been completely gone the last 12 years with a disability in the family. I have a renewed interest in micro-futures.

I literally have not looked at a chart in about 10 years. Was short and made some money in 2008, but never bought back in. Ugh! Before, I had jobs selling most of the popular software we all used back then with few surviving well if at all. NT and Sierra survived fairly well.

Anyway.. --> -->WHAT HAPPENED??? <-- >-- The trading screens these days are a clustered mess!!

Did I miss something the last 10-12 years? I don't remember order flow tools for retail/independent day traders being as popular as they are today for futures. It was pretty well known then that the bids/asks were constantly being spoofed and the big institutional orders were well hidden by complicated algorithms.

It didn't work well back then is it really working now or has it just become an easy "sell" tool for IB's and Brokers?

Tell me I am wrong and I will dig in..........

Reply With Quote
The following 15 users say Thank You to Leep for this post:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
Multichart NET set signal parameters different than the …
MultiCharts
Noise: A source of your errors?
Traders Hideout
1-min Intrabar indicator
MultiCharts
EasyLanguage: fetch option price using Stock ticker
EasyLanguage Programming
Needing harmonic patterns indicator
TradeStation
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
How much do you know about Bitcoin?
97 thanks
FIO Journal Challenge - April 2021 w/Jigsaw Trading
38 thanks
I finally blew up an account
38 thanks
EdgeProX from Edge Clear
22 thanks
The tiyfTradePlanFactory indicator
19 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #2 (permalink)
 doyalalexander 
Dallas tx
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Thinkorswin
Trading: Es
 
Posts: 21 since Oct 2014
Thanks: 7 given, 39 received

IMO.... It's neat to see the order flow. You are able to see orders stacked in the DOM and watch Time & Sales to see what really went through the tape... did the iceberg get eaten, or did it jump out of the way... It's just another arrow in the quiver.

For me... Trend lines, Fibs, and price action rule my chart and decisions..

Also.... I really enjoy trading micro futures... very low stress easy way to sell into strength and buy into weakness

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to doyalalexander for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 Mook 
Northbrook, IL
 
Experience: Intermediate
 
Posts: 9 since Jan 2010
Thanks: 2 given, 1 received


I have a somewhat similar story, but have been out for approx. 5 years. Trying to find my way again and have been looking into order flow using Bookmap. It is a platform which seems to be built around order flow. I haven't actually used it and cannot recommend or provide any great insight, but there is a webinar this week that you can check out.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
 Carnac 
Chicago, Illinois
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 1 since Aug 2012
Thanks: 2 given, 5 received

"Order Flow" can be defined in many different ways.

Resting orders are important so that one can see icebergs and yes there are complex ways that algo traders hide their large trades (a separate algorithm slices up big size) but what does get filled cannot be hidden. I like to track & focus on what cannot be hidden.
Order Flow

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Carnac for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
 Gianni78bari 
Bari, Italy
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 80 since May 2018
Thanks: 109 given, 45 received


Leep View Post
First time post... Over 35 years in the industry but I have been completely gone the last 12 years with a disability in the family. I have a renewed interest in micro-futures.

I literally have not looked at a chart in about 10 years. Was short and made some money in 2008, but never bought back in. Ugh! Before, I had jobs selling most of the popular software we all used back then with few surviving well if at all. NT and Sierra survived fairly well.

Anyway.. --> -->WHAT HAPPENED??? <-- >-- The trading screens these days are a clustered mess!!

Did I miss something the last 10-12 years? I don't remember order flow tools for retail/independent day traders being as popular as they are today for futures. It was pretty well known then that the bids/asks were constantly being spoofed and the big institutional orders were well hidden by complicated algorithms.

It didn't work well back then is it really working now or has it just become an easy "sell" tool for IB's and Brokers?

Tell me I am wrong and I will dig in..........

IMVHO the second: an easy "sell" tool for IB's and Brokers

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Gianni78bari for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
idkau
Phoenix Arizona
 
 
Posts: 3 since Mar 2021
Thanks: 2 given, 1 received

I use footprint charts now and feel blind without them. The DOMs are great also but I feel we have more information available to us which I think can help us. Check out quantower as the app has all of the tools in one.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
 LastDino 
Legendary Pratik_4Clover
Mumbai, India
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: TradingView & ZerodhaKite
Trading: Crude, NIFTY, BANKNIFTY
 
LastDino's Avatar
 
Posts: 941 since Jan 2019
Thanks: 2,854 given, 2,808 received




I must link you to this thread, its a goldmine if you are interested in the topic, irrespective of whether you are for it or against it.

Personally orderflow doesn't click with me and I'm highly averse to spending money on fancy stuff. So I'm not using it, that's about it.

Just my pov

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to LastDino for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
 edge trader 
London, UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 9 since Jun 2017
Thanks: 6 given, 7 received

Yes, you are right. It has been flogged by internet trading celebrities who never share their success rate or trading statements. The only thing you will hear is 24 hrs later they say 'I said this would happen and lookie here it did. I never predicted it , but it happened just like I said',

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to edge trader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
NondualTrader
Rochester, NY
 
 
Posts: 9 since Aug 2020
Thanks: 5 given, 32 received


Leep View Post
First time post... Over 35 years in the industry but I have been completely gone the last 12 years with a disability in the family. I have a renewed interest in micro-futures.

I literally have not looked at a chart in about 10 years. Was short and made some money in 2008, but never bought back in. Ugh! Before, I had jobs selling most of the popular software we all used back then with few surviving well if at all. NT and Sierra survived fairly well.

Anyway.. --> -->WHAT HAPPENED??? <-- >-- The trading screens these days are a clustered mess!!

Did I miss something the last 10-12 years? I don't remember order flow tools for retail/independent day traders being as popular as they are today for futures. It was pretty well known then that the bids/asks were constantly being spoofed and the big institutional orders were well hidden by complicated algorithms.

It didn't work well back then is it really working now or has it just become an easy "sell" tool for IB's and Brokers?

Tell me I am wrong and I will dig in..........

I like this question and it's one that I've thought about quite a bit. There's a tremendous amount of hype around order flow but it's usefulness depends a lot on the environment in which it's being applied. A big part of the advertising around order flow (DOM, footprint, etc.) is that prop traders use these tools and so independent traders "should" use them too. What the software sellers, educators, and so on don't tell people is that prop traders' use of order flow is often quite a bit different from how the average independent trader will be able to use it. For example, many prop traders are focused on trading around major economic announcements and they'll often have various positions open during these events on a number of different correlated and inversely correlated instruments based on historical relationships as well as what they're seeing in the current order flow. Most independent traders aren't going to have the capital to wait for less frequent events and trading very large when those events do occur. Nor are they going to have access to Bloomberg and Reuters Terminals, teams of traders to formulate a plan with, very competitive RT costs, etc.

I remember listening to a presentation from Peter Davies (Jigsaw Trading) saying that most prop traders have a win rate of around 50%. That means that the intrinsic "edge" in order flow information is fairly minimal and, as with other styles of trading, that trade management plays a much larger role in success. Based on that, and based on watching some of these gentlemen trading live, it can be ascertained that they're either good at structuring good risk/reward plays or being highly dynamic with position sizing or both. The trade off with good risk/reward is that the probability on any individual trade will not tend to be particularly high and so independent traders may have a tough time being able to tolerate the drawdown and stick to the plan. On the other hand, a prop trader is less likely to be tied too closely with the capital since he's trading OPM (still needs to trade well to keep his job and earn a living of course but there are differences - that's a whole other topic). That being said, independent traders can find good risk/reward plays and order flow can be helpful at times with that (though good risk/reward trades are generally based on looking at market structure and trade location in the form of normal charts and/or volume profile and Market Profile, rather than looking for those sorts of opportunities in the order flow).

Where most independent traders lag far behind prop traders is in the ability to be highly dynamic with position sizing - losing small when wrong, pressing bets and winning big when right. If you're a prop trader who's backed by a firm that has potentially hundreds of millions of dollars, that trader is going to be able to scale in and out of trades to a much greater extent than a small trader working for his own account. So for a prop trader order flow can be very useful since they have very immediate information on whether to keep pressing into their position or backing off. They're using the actual transactions, relative rate at which trade occurs, ease of movement, etc. much more so than the bids and offers, but ideas like reloading and pulling orders are still considered.

That being said, issues with spoofing, hidden orders, the speed at which decisions need to be made, the fact that context is often far more important than the order flow occurring at a smaller scale, and order flow becomes less worthwhile for independent traders. In some instruments were spread trading is highly prevalent, the usefulness of order flow is diminished further since volume is dispersed over multiple instruments and the degree of directional conviction is potentially less significant. I spent a a large amount of time trading using order flow, became profitable with it, and still went back to trading price action because the benefits of order flow are relatively minor for my uses. If I were in a prop environment I'd put much more weight on it because I'd scale in and out much more aggressively. However, I'm not in that setting and I see plenty of good trades just based on a chart so there's no point in distracting myself with other things that don't add much for independent traders. I'd much rather be aware of the bigger picture and it's difficult to do that when watching order flow very closely. I've watched some order flow traders do a great job trading (prop guys) who are using the information to execute on very specific ideas in very specific circumstances. I've seen far more who enter trades in absolutely terrible locations because they're out of touch with the context and get drawn in by the hypnotic effects of the order flow.

Part of the draw for independent traders is the fact that order flow is largely numbers-based so they think it'll be a more exact way to approach the markets. They want to feel more secure in an uncertain environment and think order flow will give them that. What they don't realize is that there's still a large amount of subjectivity and intuition involved in interpreting those numbers (and if that wasn't the case why are prop traders win-rates still equivalent to a coin toss despite being highly trained in using order flow?). By the way, don't buy into the salesman saying that charts aren't useful. That's just part of their pitch. In my experience I've come to find that there are two kinds of traders: those who find charts to be useful and those who are horrible at reading charts. The software salesman and educators are like the people who sold shovels and other prospecting tools during the gold rush, they're certainly making a lot of money, but not necessarily from using what they're selling.

Ultimately though, order flow, price action, indicators, Market Profile, and so on are all just different lenses to view the same market. If someone is using a tool that they personally find to be useful then it really doesn't matter what other people think about it. Trading rewards pragmatism - if it works, it works. These are my current views based on my direct experiences and I'm completely open to changing my opinions if evidence points otherwise.

Reply With Quote
The following 21 users say Thank You to NondualTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 367 since May 2011
Thanks: 110 given, 634 received


The market is all numbers. Order flow is part of it. How you define order flow is something else - there's volume, bid/ask, volume delta, bid/ask delta. It's very true that there's a lot of spoofing going on in all markets. Just watch the bid/ask depth on Jigsaw on the ES or the NQ. But the number of trades that actually went off and the total volume are real numbers. Volume profile is constructed from real numbers.
Attached are a couple of 10 tick scalps from this morning's push down. The indicator is Volume Delta from ninZa.co. The indicator is set at UpDownTick_RealVolume (there are a few other settings).
As you can see from the two 5 minute charts, there's a huge amount of selling going on. So how to trade it? Find a pullback on the 10 second chart (top chart).
I have Jigsaw up as well but it's really not useful when the NQ is so volatile - I look at the total volume column which I have to reset manually when I need to see which way the total volume is running.

So yes, order flow is useful. Some of the tools are good (could stand some improvement). It's a good way to learn the behavior or whatever market you're trading.


Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to phantomtrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
noushina
lansing, michigan
 
 
Posts: 9 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 30 given, 14 received

I hope the charts and comments below are somewhat helpful. I rely mostly on what I have learned from Al Brooks. I especially like the encyclopedia of chart patterns.
But I have two other charts I like to use in addition to the candle chart. They are shown below.
I have NT8, love it. It comes with footprints and other order flow tools. I also own Jigsaw. Never could figure it out. I studied for several weeks the Footprint course from Axia from 2017. Interesting, but IMO not worth the money unless you have more money than you need and don't mind forking out 2 or 3 thousand bucks. Jigsaw has Footprint now but it not work with NT8 as far as I last heard. I think the Axia course for Jigsaw might have been cheaper. BUt you need to buy Jigsaw. I'm glad Ninja provides this stuff for free.

Hope I don't piss any body off; just tossing out my opinion. Thanks.




Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to noushina for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Denali/Rythmic
Trading: ES, NQ, YM, RTY
 
Posts: 59 since Apr 2020
Thanks: 24 given, 30 received


Leep View Post
First time post... Over 35 years in the industry but I have been completely gone the last 12 years with a disability in the family. I have a renewed interest in micro-futures.

I literally have not looked at a chart in about 10 years. Was short and made some money in 2008, but never bought back in. Ugh! Before, I had jobs selling most of the popular software we all used back then with few surviving well if at all. NT and Sierra survived fairly well.

Anyway.. --> -->WHAT HAPPENED??? <-- >-- The trading screens these days are a clustered mess!!

Did I miss something the last 10-12 years? I don't remember order flow tools for retail/independent day traders being as popular as they are today for futures. It was pretty well known then that the bids/asks were constantly being spoofed and the big institutional orders were well hidden by complicated algorithms.

It didn't work well back then is it really working now or has it just become an easy "sell" tool for IB's and Brokers?

Tell me I am wrong and I will dig in..........

Absolutely agree with you, it's mostly a marketing nonsense.

Nothing that is available to retail traders in terms of order flow visualisation has any kind of predictive powers.

If someone want to hide their large orders, they can split it into a mixture of thousands smaller limit and market orders, spread all over large ranges, buying highs, buying lows, buying in the middle, sometimes selling to disguise and doing so not only using front month contract... Generally good luck in spotting this with all those heatmaps, consolidated tapes and footprints

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to matzero for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
 hyperscalper 
boise idaho
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader adv C#/Java
Broker: NinjaTrader with LeeLoo
Trading: NinjaTrader 8 advanced Strategies and Indicators
 
Posts: 70 since Apr 2020
Thanks: 5 given, 89 received


Leep View Post
First time post... Over 35 years in the industry but I have been completely gone the last 12 years with a disability in the family. I have a renewed interest in micro-futures.

I literally have not looked at a chart in about 10 years. Was short and made some money in 2008, but never bought back in. Ugh! Before, I had jobs selling most of the popular software we all used back then with few surviving well if at all. NT and Sierra survived fairly well.

Anyway.. --> -->WHAT HAPPENED??? <-- >-- The trading screens these days are a clustered mess!!

Did I miss something the last 10-12 years? I don't remember order flow tools for retail/independent day traders being as popular as they are today for futures. It was pretty well known then that the bids/asks were constantly being spoofed and the big institutional orders were well hidden by complicated algorithms.

It didn't work well back then is it really working now or has it just become an easy "sell" tool for IB's and Brokers?

Tell me I am wrong and I will dig in..........


You've divined what the correct answer is. There's nothing "generic" that will be predictive,
and my approach to prediction involves extreme analytics techniques for trade durations from 1 minute perhaps out to 5 minutes only.

I'm also something of an expert on Order Flow (and that means Market Depth Analysis) as well as
T&S Trade Flow analysis. None of it is easy, and interpretation is highly dependent upon the
basic personality of each futures market.

For short-term trading, believe it or not, Market Maker size can be measured, and "pushes" the
market away from it. It makes sense, if you think about it. Market Maker drives the markets,
and not primarily the Retail players. Retail players simply "chase" the market, by BUYing when
an up price trend is perceived; and SELLing when a down price move is seen; hoping the market
will move far enough for the chase trade to be profitable.

But Market Maker really moves the market. Consider the market is moving UP; and so MM will
need to INSERT volume at a higher BID price, while at the same time REMOVING volume on the
ASK side. If at the moment of that BID Insertion event; you compare volume with the inside ASK side
you will find that the BID is reliably higher than the ASK; on an uptrend.

What's happening here is that since MM is heading higher, ANY retail sellers SHE will buy from, and
then what was bought is then up-valued as MM muscles the market's BID higher. So having larger BID
insertions as the price rises, maximizes the capture of any Retail Sellers whose inventory they
simply scoop up; and push to a higher price, with no risk at all.

The difficult thing is to actually Measure this "pressure" and I'd suggest maybe you find a good
developer who could implement a theory like this; preferably, I'd recommend, using
NinjaTrader 8 and using a "raw" unaggregated Market Depth feed, such as Rithmic. One
easy way to get that is through a LeeLoo partnership and NT8.

In the end, there are no generic methods; and the type of analysis I'd suggest is highly tuned
for a specific market, such as the very dangerous NQ or MNQ contract. But if you can master
prediction, and are nimble enough; "there's Gold in them thar Hills" LOL

But Order Flow, which I call Market Depth Analysis, is where the predictive information lives.
Problem is, digging it out is like looking for gold nuggets in your back yard.

hyperscalper

Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to hyperscalper for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
Couponator
Seattle
 
 
Posts: 6 since Oct 2020
Thanks: 2 given, 7 received

I spent a lot of time trying to master order flow. In my opinion it only works with thicker correlated markets like treasuries.. There were a couple setups that worked 50% of the time, and if you could limit your losses it was profitable. One of those strategies was breakouts, you could hit them with more precision with order flow in the treasuries. However, I eventually learned that the best way to trade treasuries (for me, at least) was via spreading, and it can be done pretty effectively even without order flow.

Overall, I agree that it is not worth the money.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Couponator for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
 patricktapper 
Isle of Capri
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Trade Navigator
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 2 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 1 given, 0 received

Thanks for your post. Orderflow is a way to view the market. There will always be iceberg orders to flip you out, and range spikes that can happen anytime. There is a large number of floor traders that have survived the transition to the screen. A lot did not. Orderflow is one tool you can use to trade. It has pros and cons, just like everything else. With that said, you need to find your own way to trade and tools that suit your brain. That's the journey every trader has to make. That's not the easy part at all. Many successful traders who have come off the floor use traditional technical analysis, volume or market profile, or combinations of both. You're best placed to find and follow credible traders and see if their way appeals to your thinking. There is no right or wrong. If I were starting again, I would seek out investigating different styles from CREDIBLE traders - there are not many compared to ones that are not. Try Linda Raschke, Anthony Crudellli, Axia Futures, Jim Dalton, and many others. Loads of material on the net and on YouTube. All different styles. Have a look, see what appeals, and then reach out to them. All of them can offer educational material or resources. There are paid courses, but also a lot that exists as free material as well. Good luck!!

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 639 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 689 received

Because markets are competitive it is extremely difficult to build a consistent edge based purely on technical data. Our ability to predict future price movements based on past market behavior is extremely limited if it is possible at all. That's just the nature of the game as everyone is trying to find inefficiencies there.

Now there are certainly some advantages to order flow in this respect. It is less common. There's far more people watching price than there are watching order flow. It is difficult to backtest order flow especially when we're talking about depth of market. So there's probably going to be more inefficiencies to find with order flow than there are purely with price. There was a time when order flow was new, and retail traders built many famous successful systems with it. Today these tools are far more common, and it appears that much of that edge has been mined away by robots.

Despite this I still find order flow to be an essential tool. Order flow gives you a much better idea of what actually happened. That might not tell you the future, but it at least gives you a better picture of current conditions. Price alone is so ineffective compared to order flow at describing the current market state that I really don't see how people trade without it. To really be profitable though you'll need a further informational advantage.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to TWDsje for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
 chartmojo2 
Missioul Montana usa
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader and others
Trading: nq, es, Hype cool runner Ipo's months out short into lockup expirations. UVXY, TSLA options
 
Posts: 13 since Feb 2016
Thanks: 1 given, 35 received

I find some of the volume/order flow tools useful. I scalp nq and es and I use the volume profiles right side orientation on heat or delta in conjunction with the market depth map. I also use the nt8 dom with an additional column to the right with volume. That gives you the levels with a buy sell proportion bar in real time just to the right of the dom price levels. I'm primarily a very quick price action trader and I do find those all helpful. Like any thing one has to get used to using them and seeing certain set ups. NQ is so fast I find there are fewer games with flashing size to push price around etc., especially when action is quick. Over time you sort of see the next thing or level where orders should tend to come in. Those tools both help you to learn then confirm when that's happening.

When they studied chess grand masters they learned that they saw the board, the pieces and the strategies differently over time. I find that to be true with traders as well. I might find value in the tools another may not. I may not of found value in them last year and may not next year. One has go with what one see's, works for them at the time. Those tools, while not a panacea or holy grail by any means, help me see the market at the moment. Traders see differently and what they see changes over time. Any strat, understanding, opinion is one perspective snapshot in time, including this.

Observe, adapt, grow, change, evolve or perish. Biological law of species (traders) survival.

If x occurs, do x1. If y occurs do y1. Imagine different scenarios, take the one that confirms. Imagine the high probability scenario first, you may not have time to imagine the second. It helps to know the high probability scenario unfolding. There is always something leading, correlating, find those.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to chartmojo2 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
Posts: 97 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 197 given, 226 received


chartmojo2 View Post
I find some of the volume/order flow tools useful. I scalp nq and es and I use the volume profiles right side orientation on heat or delta in conjunction with the market depth map. I also use the nt8 dom with an additional column to the right with volume. That gives you the levels with a buy sell proportion bar in real time just to the right of the dom price levels. I'm primarily a very quick price action trader and I do find those all helpful. Like any thing one has to get used to using them and seeing certain set ups. NQ is so fast I find there are fewer games with flashing size to push price around etc., especially when action is quick. Over time you sort of see the next thing or level where orders should tend to come in. Those tools both help you to learn then confirm when that's happening.

When they studied chess grand masters they learned that they saw the board, the pieces and the strategies differently over time. I find that to be true with traders as well. I might find value in the tools another may not. I may not of found value in them last year and may not next year. One has go with what one see's, works for them at the time. Those tools, while not a panacea or holy grail by any means, help me see the market at the moment. Traders see differently and what they see changes over time. Any strat, understanding, opinion is one perspective snapshot in time, including this.

Observe, adapt, grow, change, evolve or perish. Biological law of species (traders) survival.

If x occurs, do x1. If y occurs do y1. Imagine different scenarios, take the one that confirms. Imagine the high probability scenario first, you may not have time to imagine the second. It helps to know the high probability scenario unfolding. There is always something leading, correlating, find those.

Hey Chartmojo2,

I'm just curious if you have compared your V.P. w/heat, delta, market depth map tools against Bookmap? Of course, those stock tools on NT8 are "freeish" compared to Rithmic Bookmap.

Thanks for any reply! Your northern neighbor.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
Posts: 97 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 197 given, 226 received


phantomtrader View Post
The market is all numbers. Order flow is part of it. How you define order flow is something else - there's volume, bid/ask, volume delta, bid/ask delta. It's very true that there's a lot of spoofing going on in all markets. Just watch the bid/ask depth on Jigsaw on the ES or the NQ. But the number of trades that actually went off and the total volume are real numbers. Volume profile is constructed from real numbers.
Attached are a couple of 10 tick scalps from this morning's push down. The indicator is Volume Delta from ninZa.co. The indicator is set at UpDownTick_RealVolume (there are a few other settings).
As you can see from the two 5 minute charts, there's a huge amount of selling going on. So how to trade it? Find a pullback on the 10 second chart (top chart).
I have Jigsaw up as well but it's really not useful when the NQ is so volatile - I look at the total volume column which I have to reset manually when I need to see which way the total volume is running.

So yes, order flow is useful. Some of the tools are good (could stand some improvement). It's a good way to learn the behavior or whatever market you're trading.


Howdy,

Are you using a stop? 10 ticks?

You inspired me to do some sim testing using a 10/10 tick on a 5 sec. NQ chart. I was a little surprised not getting stopped out very often. Of course that was on a sim. I do like the short duration trades.

I tried multiple times trading the MES with tight stops, but to no avail. Used a 233 tick chart. This went better on the NQ. My challenge would be to not fall prey to my tendency of looking for a trade under every rock.

Thanks for a your reply!

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
 boomer49 
Malaysia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjaTrader 7, IRT
Trading: ES, CL
 
Posts: 2 since May 2014
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

I'm not so long in the industry, ~22years, but in my view it is how you define order flow. Also the market you trade, your time frame, and available risk capitol are major factors in my opinion. I trade Futures, focus on 2 products NQ and ES and trade intraday.
Sure "orderflow" is a buzz word as was "supply and demand" and therefore lots of vendors jump on those buzz words to sell their wares. IMHO that is pretty much the whole NT business model. I always ask myself, if the tool is so great and makes so much money, why are they selling it and not just trading it? However, in my opinion there are some good tools out there which can be used to help. fore example I use the Jigsaw DOM (not sure if i can say that or not? sorry if not Mike) Market Profile, volume profile, VWAP, cumulative delta and relative volume these are the only things on my charts. In my opinion those are order flow but to many they may not be. Nothing basic has changed with the markets in the 35 years. The market state changes all the time, this year for example just look at the VIX! But the markets only go up or down period. Each trade you have a 50/50% probability on the very next trade. I strive to manage risk and trade probabilities to give myself as many trades in the dataset as possible which will allow my edge to manifest it's self and achieve consistent profitability.
again these are just my thoughts and opinion.
good luck and trading.

Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to boomer49 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #21 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 367 since May 2011
Thanks: 110 given, 634 received


redbarntrades View Post
Howdy,

Are you using a stop? 10 ticks?

You inspired me to do some sim testing using a 10/10 tick on a 5 sec. NQ chart. I was a little surprised not getting stopped out very often. Of course that was on a sim. I do like the short duration trades.

I tried multiple times trading the MES with tight stops, but to no avail. Used a 233 tick chart. This went better on the NQ. My challenge would be to not fall prey to my tendency of looking for a trade under every rock.

Thanks for a your reply!

Hello - Yes, I use stops - more of a catastrophic stop i.e. 25-50 ticks. I manage the trades myself - if it's bad, it's bad, I get out. With a 10 tick PT, you have to have a high win number because the losses can add up. The order flow numbers tell the story - when it reverses, which the NQ does very fast, get out.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to phantomtrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #22 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
Posts: 97 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 197 given, 226 received


phantomtrader View Post
Hello - Yes, I use stops - more of a catastrophic stop i.e. 25-50 ticks. I manage the trades myself - if it's bad, it's bad, I get out. With a 10 tick PT, you have to have a high win number because the losses can add up. The order flow numbers tell the story - when it reverses, which the NQ does very fast, get out.

Thanks for your response. Nothing is bad if it works. The whole point is to bank the green. Thanks for posting those trades!

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #23 (permalink)
intradayedge
Rome ITA
 
 
Posts: 3 since Feb 2021
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

Anyone knows that order flow is something that falls more into discretionary trading. Those who usually prefer a discretionary approach could adapt better.
Taking into consideration the context of an already known asset is more than fundamental.
For a novice to mechanically trade simple buy/sell imbalances could be dangerous and frustrating. It is super easy to be misled and overstimulated by all the many "big green/red numbers" that flow constantly.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to intradayedge for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #24 (permalink)
 Rainmakersg 
Singapore Singapore
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 10 since May 2020
Thanks: 24 given, 14 received

Yes Order Flow works for me if I filter out the noise.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #25 (permalink)
 stumbras 
Denver, Colorado
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Tradestation, Tradingview
Broker: Tradestation, Forex.com
Trading: Futures and Forex
 
Posts: 28 since Apr 2021
Thanks: 7 given, 12 received

New micros(MES) trader here. I finished No bushtit trading course and of course it peaked my interest into Order Flow. The problem is I am on Tradestation(plus I have Tradingview) and I dont want to switch to another platform(spend more money).
It appears that no free order flow tools exist on Tradestation and Tradingview? Any other alternatives to supplement charts trading(I base my trading on al Brooks course)?
Is it even worth it for micros trader(mostly scalping?

Why one of the top brokers(Tradestation) would completely ignore Order Flow?

Reply With Quote


futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout > Order Flow Tools? Really?


Last Updated on May 9, 2021


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing

NEW BlackBird Features + FOREX Support w/Jeremy Tang @ SharkIndicators

Elite only
 

Our 12-year anniversary w/ $$,$$$ prizes (check soon)

June
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada), info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts