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Need Help: Urgent Broker Problem (Phillip Capital: NT Brokerage, Edge Clear)


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Need Help: Urgent Broker Problem (Phillip Capital: NT Brokerage, Edge Clear)

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  #201 (permalink)
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ranger824 View Post
There are no instances of the opposite. There are no winning trades placed in accounts that people can close for winners. Have you heard one person say that they had a winning trade placed in their account, and they closed it for a profit???? No. In contrast, NT says that they will be backed up for weeks with people who have had losing trades placed in their accounts.

To be honest when i first closed my position i was up grand and reported it to NT brokerage. When my second position was closed i was down around 500. Reported the same to NT brokerage as well.


ranger824 View Post
The trade is only placed into the account once it’s negative. Phillips keeps the profits from all of the winning errors, and traders keep the losses from the losing errors. That’s how it’s working so far.

I'm not sure how they are going to find profitable trades which were a result of bad data being received by the user; from my experience that can only be seen/proved from the platform log. Don't think anyone is going to voluntarily report a profitable trade.

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  #202 (permalink)
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AvgTraderJoe View Post
I'm not sure how they are going to find profitable trades which were a result of bad data being received by the user; from my experience that can only be seen/proved from the platform log. Don't think anyone is going to voluntarily report a profitable trade.

By studying the same executions logs that put me short, I realized the next day that those same logs should have me in a profitable long position (from when they told me to close out that short). The logs showed that I should have a profitable long position open. These logs are documented facts.

I called them and in a recorded phone call I told them that the same logic and the same logs that had me short should now have me in a profitable long trade. They said I was flat. I said, “Okay, but that long better not show up in my account when it turns negative.”

I have no ideas what’s going on here. And because they sent out all of those CRAZY statements, no one knows what’s going on.

We would like to think they are not able to do this, but I’m just looking at my logs.

Where are the statements that show my REAL FILLS matched up one for one??? I’m scalping, so I’m flat multiple times a day. The math is really easy with these scalps. It’s one in, one out. Truthful statements can’t be hard to create.

I can share my NT logs with them if they want the truth. Oh, that’s right; they injected fake orders into those logs. And I have proof of that.

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  #203 (permalink)
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Hello, I am completely new here and also affected by the system failure at Phillip Capital. Due to positions that were not displayed to me and positions that were displayed to me, I now have too many futures open. Unfortunately, they are all running against me.
After opening the markets I was shown 2 positions (slightly positive) which I quickly closed. Later that day, I found out that my supposed closures resulted in an opening in the opposite direction.
In addition, a position that I thought I had closed on Friday reappeared.
NinjaTrader and Phillip Capital only say that everything is correct now. However, I should not trade. Yes, what can I say, my account looks very bad, and it seems that the originator does not care.
What can I do? Does anyone have any ideas?

Interim report : I was able to speak to a NinjaTrader employee and tell him everything over the phone.
He will forward it to the responsible departments. But these are the same people to whom I have already written several times by email and also sent screenshots.
At least I now have a German-speaking contact.
But nobody knows whether there is compensation.

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  #204 (permalink)
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Eagleheart45 View Post
Hello, I am completely new here and also affected by the system failure at Phillip Capital. Due to positions that were not displayed to me and positions that were displayed to me, I now have too many futures open. Unfortunately, they are all running against me.
After opening the markets I was shown 2 positions (slightly positive) which I quickly closed. Later that day, I found out that my supposed closures resulted in an opening in the opposite direction.
In addition, a position that I thought I had closed on Friday reappeared.
NinjaTrader and Phillip Capital only say that everything is correct now. However, I should not trade. Yes, what can I say, my account looks very bad, and it seems that the originator does not care.
What can I do? Does anyone have any ideas?

Please email orders@ninjatrader.com with your details. If you have an open position, then please call 312.423.2234.

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  #205 (permalink)
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I’m new to this forum and joined by searching Phillip capital (PC) outage issue. Similar to others I’ve email threads and screen shots proving PC fault. Also, like other user posted I see the log/transactions manipulated by adding/removing lines. Long story short I feel Ninja trader (NT) will try on our behalf but what if PC is not taking responsibility. With this assumption I would like to get your inputs on what’s next if PC is not acting fair. Also, Big Mike posted about NFA, what about CFTC or SEC? Who do we report this with proof?

Big Mike / Admin – We would really appreciate if there is separate topic to discuss on PC so that it’s all in one place instead of searching different threads.

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  #206 (permalink)
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larrynq View Post
Long story short I feel Ninja trader (NT) will try on our behalf but what if PC is not taking responsibility.

While I can't speak for other brokers, I can assure you that NinjaTrader Brokerage customers will be made whole. That's our promise to our customers.

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  #207 (permalink)
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Thanks Ninja trader. But I would like to get others/admin inputs. What if it is different broker and not NT. This is something new for me and I'm sure for most of the users here. Basically this will give some awareness in terms of our options legally if Phillip capital (PC) or the broker or both not taking responsibility.

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  #208 (permalink)
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larrynq View Post
Thanks Ninja trader. But I would like to get others/admin inputs. What if it is different broker and not NT. This is something new for me and I'm sure for most of the users here. Basically this will give some awareness in terms of our options legally if Phillip capital (PC) or the broker or both not taking responsibility.

Understand and good question. Other brokers who clear through Phillip would need to state their position on refunding customers. You should ask them.

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  #209 (permalink)
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larrynq View Post
Big Mike / Admin – We would really appreciate if there is separate topic to discuss on PC so that it’s all in one place instead of searching different threads.

Sorry, I am confused by the question.

This thread we are in is the "one place" for this issue regarding Phillip Capital.

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  #210 (permalink)
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Sorry Mike for the confusion. Currently we are all discussing about the problem but I was requesting more as next steps as a topic if PC or the broker or both not taking responsibility. You mentioned about NFA and I was checking on CFTC or SEC? Who do we report this with proof? If not, we can discuss in this thread itself. Thanks again.

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  #211 (permalink)
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It is an interesting question, but really needs replies from people with knowledge (ie lawyers) and not just opinions of people (probably influenced by their position). I'd be interested in somebody with legal knowledge opinions on 'responsibility'. If we assume that 'non-real' trades will all get resolved I suspect what we are left with, is trades people did in reaction to seeing an inaccurate position. Legally who is responsible for any trades entered into due to inaccurate information? I can guess but I'm not a lawyer so will say nothing.

FYI as @Big Mike said complaints would go to the NFA. They are the self regulating body - not a trade association. The CFTC is more like the rules maker, while the NFA is more like the enforcer. SEC is securities and has no jurisdiction in futures.

Another question for NT/PC account holders. If your account was incorrectly showing negative over the last few days were you able to trade, or were you unable due to lack of margin/funds?

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SMCJB View Post
FYI as @Big Mike said complaints would go to the NFA. They are the self regulating body - not a trade association. The CFTC is more like the rules maker, while the NFA is more like the enforcer. SEC is securities and has no jurisdiction in futures.

Absolutely, NFA is self-regulating. However, brokers/FCM's are highly motivated to have a clean record. I would venture to say that it is highly unlikely it would be necessary to involve the CFTC on most disputes. But absolutely, the option is there for the trader to have recourse. Which is great news! I also would venture to guess that working with the personnel NFA is far easier than with the CFTC.

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Should probably add that while the NFA is self-regulating, membership in the NFA by brokers (companies and individuals), swap dealers, floor traders etc is mandatory, and is mandated by the CFTC.

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Big Mike View Post
Absolutely, NFA is self-regulating. However, brokers/FCM's are highly motivated to have a clean record. I would venture to say that it is highly unlikely it would be necessary to involve the CFTC on most disputes. But absolutely, the option is there for the trader to have recourse. Which is great news! I also would venture to guess that working with the personnel NFA is far easier than with the CFTC.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I am following this thread as it sounds similar to the problem PFG Best had back in 2008 or 2009. I was one of the lucky ones that were relentless and got my money back. The issue then was (as they explained to me) that there were 2 servers that held the trades and when I closed/Flatten the trades it only flatten them on the 1 server and not the other , it showed on my Strategy Runner as closed. The next morning there were still trades open. It took emails , phone calls to the US from Australia and I was relentless. I think it is crucial that there is a safer way for beginners to trade where the trade sits on a “managed desk” re if the trade loss is more than your set stop loss it closes out automatically. This should help traders feel more secure in case power failures or pc crashes etc. occur, like a gauranteed stop loss? If there is such a service can someone post it here please.
I can identify with these traders that complain as I have personally experienced this, needless to say PFG Best not long after this shut down I believe, whether it was because of this or something else. I think this is when I became a member of Big Mike in 2009
Hang in there fellas as Mike said these brokers want to have a clean record otherwise they will not survive just like The other one mentioned.

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CME actually has native Stop Orders. Problem is some software/execution networks/brokers keep them on their own servers and don't send them to the CME.
https://www.cmegroup.com/education/courses/things-to-know-before-trading-cme-futures/futures-order-types.html

PFG went out of business because the owner embezzled a bunch of the customer funds.

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Trad3r View Post
Thanks Mike, I am following this thread as it sounds similar to the problem PFG Best had back in 2008 or 2009. I was one of the lucky ones that were relentless and got my money back. The issue then was (as they explained to me) that there were 2 servers that held the trades and when I closed/Flatten the trades it only flatten them on the 1 server and not the other , it showed on my Strategy Runner as closed. The next morning there were still trades open. It took emails , phone calls to the US from Australia and I was relentless. I think it is crucial that there is a safer way for beginners to trade where the trade sits on a “managed desk” re if the trade loss is more than your set stop loss it closes out automatically. This should help traders feel more secure in case power failures or pc crashes etc. occur, like a gauranteed stop loss? If there is such a service can someone post it here please.
I can identify with these traders that complain as I have personally experienced this, needless to say PFG Best not long after this shut down I believe, whether it was because of this or something else. I think this is when I became a member of Big Mike in 2009
Hang in there fellas as Mike said these brokers want to have a clean record otherwise they will not survive just like The other one mentioned.

Just curious, how long did it take you to get your refund? Weeks? Months?

Thanks for sharing your experience

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  #217 (permalink)
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SMCJB View Post
CME actually has native Stop Orders. Problem is some software/execution networks/brokers keep them on their own servers and don't send them to the CME.
https://www.cmegroup.com/education/courses/things-to-know-before-trading-cme-futures/futures-order-types.html

PFG went out of business because the owner embezzled a bunch of the customer funds.

Thanks , is there a list of brokers that discloses whether they keep the order on their servers or send it through to the CME?

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dipit19 View Post
Just curious, how long did it take you to get your refund? Weeks? Months?

Thanks for sharing your experience

It took 3 weeks, but psychologically took 2 years to get my mind set correct. I think it was $9000.

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  #219 (permalink)
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Trad3r View Post
Thanks , is there a list of brokers that discloses whether they keep the order on their servers or send it through to the CME?

Here's the list.

https://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/forum/ninjatrader-7/platform-technical-support/5506-where-do-your-orders-reside-using-ninjatrader-7?t=5349&highlight=order+reside

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  #220 (permalink)
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who is going to police Phillips and the other brokers ? its likely they will keep all the winnings and pass the losses on to their clients.

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Eagleheart45 View Post
Ich hatte das gleiche Problem....2 Positionen geschlossen habe ich gedacht, aber sie wurden in Gegenrichtung eröffnet.

Hi @Eagleheart45,

When you post in an English-language part of the forum, please post in English so others can understand you and respond.

If you have difficulty using English, Google Translate will assist you.

Thanks.

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  #222 (permalink)
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jmp470 View Post
I had this very problem on Thursday and Friday. I ended up with an open positions the following morning and freaked out and closed them. Which lead to other issues.

The worst part is: Those were the best trades I've ever made in my two weeks of trading futures


Going into Sunday I had what was an open position from 3883, and I knew it was wrong so I was all over calling NT. by 8pm, the position was removed from my account.

Today I'm trading normally, but I will be taking screen shots of all my trades.

I had the same problem....2 positions closed I thought, but they were opened in the opposite direction.

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I personally would not trade till we are assured all issues have been sorted. The US finance industry is a bit like the wild west, like old Wells Fargo with the Stage Coach. In Australia the ASX is small but the checks and balances are in place even more so with the Royal Commission that scratched open issues in the finance industry. However I would rather trade the US market than the Chinese market 🤠

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forgiven View Post
who is going to police Phillips and the other brokers ? its likely they will keep all the winnings and pass the losses on to their clients.

Where do you get this from?

That is not how futures brokers work. It is a highly regulated industry. There have only been a few notable exceptions in the last few decades where customers segregated funds were at-risk.

I don't know about others, but when I read "they will keep the winnings and pass the losses to their clients", the first thing that comes to mind are forex bucket shops that are not regulated nor trading on a centralized exchange.

Futures Brokers do not belong in this same category. As mentioned previously in the thread, you have the NFA which is an excellent option for resolving any serious issues you have with your broker. Using the NFA is truly a last resort, but it is there. Then there is the CFTC, which in my experience is only useful when a large number of people are affected by a singular issue (and not a case-by-case resolution, which the NFA can provide).

Certainly, this particular outage that Phillip Capital experienced may be escalated to the CFTC, and they may be fined. In my opinion, it will almost certainly result in a NFA case(s).

On top of that, you have NinjaTrader stating that they are also vigilantly ensuring customers will be made whole by this experience. That is another layer on top of the others listed.

All of this is highly contrary to your statement.

Naturally, like all of my posts, this is solely my opinion and not to be taken as legal advice. I also am not speaking on behalf of any of the companies named in my post. My post represents solely my thoughts and opinions, nothing more.

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  #225 (permalink)
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Hello, I have a question about account statements from PC. I have only been trading futures for a few weeks. Now the chaos at PC has hit me right away. So I took a closer look at the account statements.
Is it possible that I have different prices when I buy 2 futures?

1Micro 31289
1Micro 31212 bought with one click?
That's what it says on the account statement, it's an open position.
I had some trades in this instrument that day

It is a mystery to me especially since the price was never possible that day.
Also, in the explanations in the NT it only says the correct price

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Big Mike View Post
Where do you get this from?

That is not how futures brokers work. It is a highly regulated industry. There have only been a few notable exceptions in the last few decades where customers segregated funds were at-risk.

I don't know about others, but when I read "they will keep the winnings and pass the losses to their clients", the first thing that comes to mind are forex bucket shops that are not regulated nor trading on a centralized exchange.

Futures Brokers do not belong in this same category. As mentioned previously in the thread, you have the NFA which is an excellent option for resolving any serious issues you have with your broker. Using the NFA is truly a last resort, but it is there. Then there is the CFTC, which in my experience is only useful when a large number of people are affected by a singular issue (and not a case-by-case resolution, which the NFA can provide).

Certainly, this particular outage that Phillip Capital experienced may be escalated to the CFTC, and they may be fined. In my opinion, it will almost certainly result in a NFA case(s).

On top of that, you have NinjaTrader stating that they are also vigilantly ensuring customers will be made whole by this experience. That is another layer on top of the others listed.

All of this is highly contrary to your statement.

Naturally, like all of my posts, this is solely my opinion and not to be taken as legal advice. I also am not speaking on behalf of any of the companies named in my post. My post represents solely my thoughts and opinions, nothing more.

Mike

i was refencing clients that opened new positions to close out positions that did not really exist . some of the positions will be losses. the software problem did not directly create this, it was what will be called the clients untimely and unwise reaction to the problem that will be blamed. this area is gray in my view . i do not think losses in this area will be taken care of. i hope they are .

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forgiven View Post
i was refencing clients that opened new positions to close out positions that did not really exist . some of the positions will be losses. the software problem did not directly create this, it was what will be called the clients untimely and unwise reaction to the problem that will be blamed. this area is gray in my view . i do not think losses in this area will be taken care of. i hope they are .

I hope so as well. These are the only items where an actual gain or loss can have taken place -- everything else on the statements are just reporting errors that do not represent true transactions, and they will be found and removed by the reconciliation process. If the customer did not act on these erroneous entries by initiating a true trade to close them, then no real transaction is involved and there is no actual loss, once the errors in the statements are removed.

But if the customer did the natural thing and tried to close a position their statement said they had, and therefore did a real trade that actually executed, this is where they have potential real exposure. This exposure could be bad, because if they thought they were long x contracts , and therefore sold x contracts to close this out, then on the exchange, not on their platform or on their statement, they are short, not flat.

This is why it has been said repeatedly in this thread to NOT close out any position that you do not recognize, but to contact support immediately.

As I understand the many statements made by @NinjaTrader in this thread, NT intends to make all these customers whole, meaning, they will not be stuck with the losses. This is the responsible thing to do, and NT clearly said they will do it. It does appear there was some confusing responses made at various times by NT support on this subject, but Ray is the boss and he has been clear on the sugject:


NinjaTrader View Post
While I can't speak for other brokers, I can assure you that NinjaTrader Brokerage customers will be made whole. That's our promise to our customers.

I can understand the sort of automatic cynicism that says the broker will look after himself and the customers will take the losses, but this is not what @NinjaTrader is publicly stating.

Everyone please also note the instructions repeatedly given in case you have an open position that is not yours, and especially one that you closed by an offsetting trade:


NinjaTrader View Post
Please email orders@ninjatrader.com with your details. If you have an open position, then please call 312.423.2234.

------------------

As @Big Mike has said, I am not connected with NinjaTrader nor with Phillip in any way, and am not speaking for them, nor can I. I'm just a guy who is typing here, not a spokesperson for these firms, so don't rely on my attempt to summarize the situation -- make sure you understand it, and don't be satisfied until you are sure you do.

I do strongly recommend that anyone in this situation immediately stop trading until and unless they are 100% confident that all is settled with their account.

Also, it appears that some of the refunding of accounts may take some time to figure out what needs to be done. Don't add to the problem by making any new trades.

Be careful now, and keep your head while this is going on.

Bob.

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  #228 (permalink)
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ninja traders clients will be taken care of in my view . i had a software problem that cost me a lot by another broker a few years ago that was not taken care of. i will not reference them . they sue people that rat them out. you know who i am referencing.

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  #229 (permalink)
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forgiven View Post
ninja traders clients will be taken care of in my view . i had a software problem that cost me a lot by another broker a few years ago that was not taken care of. i will not reference them . they sue people that rat them out. you know who i am referencing.


I'm afraid I don't know which broker you are referring to. I would really like to know but understand your reticence to name them if they like to sue people. All the more reason that I would like to know! Can you send me a private message with the name and a synopsis of what happened? Thanks!

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If Phillip Capital does not fully reimburse us customers I´m all for collectively suing them. They make millions every year with our fees. If they mess up they need to pay a couple thousand to us small retail traders. This mess is on them. It´s unacceptable that they do not fully reimburse us. I´m still waiting. I´m in contact with NinjaTrader and I like the platform very much. I hope they will find a solution. If there is a lawyer interested in taking the case please get in touch. I´m a lawyer myself, unfortunately not in the US. There is a lot of financial damage here and in my opinion also emotional distress, which is also damage being inflicted on us due to their incompetence and that needs to be repaired.

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alvarofuture View Post
If Phillip Capital does not fully reimburse us customers I´m all for collectively suing them. They make millions every year with our fees. If they mess up they need to pay a couple thousand to us small retail traders. This mess is on them. It´s unacceptable that they do not fully reimburse us. I´m still waiting. I´m in contact with NinjaTrader and I like the platform very much. I hope they will find a solution. If there is a lawyer interested in taking the case please get in touch. I´m a lawyer myself, unfortunately not in the US. There is a lot of financial damage here and in my opinion also emotional distress, which is also damage being inflicted on us due to their incompetence and that needs to be repaired.

I would note that the head of @NinjaTrader has publicly committed to reimburse all the NinjaTrader customers affected by this situation.

I would hold your outrage until there is more cause for it. I'm not minimizing the frustration nor the feeling of upset, but the firm has made a public commitment to its customers, which should count for something.

Also, everyone should make sure they are following the recommended procedures that have been laid out in this thread for contacting NT about their issues, and in particular, not to trade to offset the erroneous balances they found on their statements, which can only make the situation more complicated to unwind.

Again, I am not a representative of NinjaTrader or Phillips, just someone who has tried to stay on top of things in this thread. Anyone with an issue should be in contact with Ninja directly.

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Joseph Connors View Post
I'm afraid I don't know which broker you are referring to. I would really like to know but understand your reticence to name them if they like to sue people. All the more reason that I would like to know! Can you send me a private message with the name and a synopsis of what happened? Thanks!

its not me i am worried about getting sued . its the forum . AMP went after mike for letting people post about their sins . so i will not point fingers , sorry. if you read the stuff you sign when you open a account it references no one is responsible for any software problems. the larger brokers do eat some problems , but they do not have to.

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Big Mike View Post
Where do you get this from?

That is not how futures brokers work. It is a highly regulated industry. There have only been a few notable exceptions in the last few decades where customers segregated funds were at-risk.

I don't know about others, but when I read "they will keep the winnings and pass the losses to their clients", the first thing that comes to mind are forex bucket shops that are not regulated nor trading on a centralized exchange.

Futures Brokers do not belong in this same category. As mentioned previously in the thread, you have the NFA which is an excellent option for resolving any serious issues you have with your broker. Using the NFA is truly a last resort, but it is there. Then there is the CFTC, which in my experience is only useful when a large number of people are affected by a singular issue (and not a case-by-case resolution, which the NFA can provide).

Certainly, this particular outage that Phillip Capital experienced may be escalated to the CFTC, and they may be fined. In my opinion, it will almost certainly result in a NFA case(s).

On top of that, you have NinjaTrader stating that they are also vigilantly ensuring customers will be made whole by this experience. That is another layer on top of the others listed.

All of this is highly contrary to your statement.

Naturally, like all of my posts, this is solely my opinion and not to be taken as legal advice. I also am not speaking on behalf of any of the companies named in my post. My post represents solely my thoughts and opinions, nothing more.

Mike

@Big Mike,

I want to speak from 3 perspectives: As a long-time member of FIO, as a trader who has been in the industry for what seems like forever and, finally, as the owner of a futures brokerage firm whose team had to work long hours to resolve this for its members.

It is clear that many here don't understand how several things work and these seem to be 1) futures matching (and how it is very different than equities/FX, etc), 2) what role the clearing firm plays and its importance, 3) what role a broker plays and why your relationship with your broker is key, 4) how regulatory organizations work (the fole of the NFA vs. CFTC vs SEC).

This is probably a session we should hold soon to address the misinformation. Happy to be there to answer questions.

Furthermore, there is something completely off about what people think happened here with Phillip. This was not some malicious and intended event. This is a failure on the backend when Phillip's own order/fill/data processing system experienced a major technical issue during processing on Thursday. Nobody wants this to happen and it is a complete nightmare for the FCM, broker and the trader. People work hard to prevent this sort of thing, but it does happen. In my 20+ years of trading, this has occurred multiple times with equity shops as well as futures clearers. Let's please dispense with the accusations. Nobody wants to steal the funds in your account. We don't have insurance in futures, because the exchanges, FCMs, regulators and clearing houses have always stood behind the customer. This an extremely highly regulated industry and I trust it.

The frustration is completely understandable. However, let's give the various parties a chance to sort through this and figure out next steps.

It is supremely important not to close positions or continue trading through what looks like trades on in your platform that you don't recognize. It is best to contact your broker and get verification. You ask: Why would you not close a position you don't recognize? We don't act because errant positions can show up as a result of several systems that can be out of alignment. It could be an issue with your platform directly in that some parsed trades didn't make it into the front end software. It could be an error by the FCM (as we saw in this case). It could be a forgotten limit order that you put out there and away from the market.

As soon as you close it or continue to trade through it, you own that position or the opposite position at the exchange. I know the urge is to close it, but don't because it could be a phantom position at the platform. Yes, this presents risk in that it may be a legitimate position resulting from an order that you forgot to cancel, but you have to be confident of the source of the fill before trading out of it. It is the nature of trading electronically, unfortunately.

Let's cool our jets and let the work get done by your broker/FCM. I know the individuals at Phillip Capital and they are quality people, in my interaction with them.

PS: Let's be thankful that we aren't trading on the floor. Back in the day, when there was an "out trade", the local (that's us traders) often times had to eat it in a product that is trading at $250 per point or worse.

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  #234 (permalink)
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I am just brain storming here .... Does FINRA still exists in the US? If so it might be a good idea to have a section in futuresio dedicated to the arbitration process steps once the dispute resolution process have been exhausted with any particular broker. Might make people feel safer? Or a process a tradr can print and follow if this sort of thing happens again with any other broker.

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  #235 (permalink)
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Same issue with AMP and TT:

Got below email 15mins agao (15:30 GMT)


Big Mike (moderators): Not sure if you can post below in it's own board?



TT Outage : CME Order Routing Issues (PENDING)


PENDING > Positions confirmations
DO NOT CLOSE ANY POSITIONS THAT YOU THINK IS IN ERROR.

TT has confirmed - they published incorrect positions in the platform.

If you close an incorrect open position > it will OPEN a REAL open position.



TT is preparing a list of all accounts affected. We will update you once confirmed.





---------------------------------

We have raised CME margins to 100% Exchange until resolved

TT says resolved, but we are getting reports of inaccurate positions

Please DO NOT PLACE ANY NEW CME ORDERS



https://support.ampglobal.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500002838222



We will keep you updated as info comes in from TT

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Trad3r View Post
I am just brain storming here .... Does FINRA still exists in the US? If so it might be a good idea to have a section in futuresio dedicated to the arbitration process steps once the dispute resolution process have been exhausted with any particular broker. Might make people feel safer? Or a process a tradr can print and follow if this sort of thing happens again with any other broker.

Hi Trad3r,

FINRA is a non-profit that is organized to oversee the operations of Broker-Dealers (meaning equities houses). As far as I know, it has no jurisdiction on futures/commodities. Futures/commodities are self-regulated by NFA as well as the exchanges. All futures industry participants are overseen by the CFTC. NFA has its own dispute resolution process and they don't mess around when it comes to the actions of their members. The industry is very highly regulated. For everyone, compliance is a huge priority.

If you are still disputing your positions relating to Phillip, your broker should be your advocate.

I hope that makes sense.

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  #237 (permalink)
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@Lfx987, @Big Mike. Yeap TT having their 3rd CME outage since Thursday.

https://status.trade.tt/

This is what they said an hour ago

Disruption : CME Order Management Issues
Customers should verify order status and positions with CME. If you are unable to manage GTCs please notify TT immediately. In some cases fills may have been restated, which may have resulted in incorrect positions. TT is working to identify any incorrect positions and will contact customers.

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  #238 (permalink)
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SMCJB View Post
Yeap TT having their 3rd CME outage since Thursday.

Obviously, it seems like there could be no relationship b/t Phillip's issue and TT's issue. But, if not, that is some fairly insane coincidence.
Is there a TLDR on what's happening with TT (in contrast to Phillip), or is the answer higher up in the thread?

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fivewhy View Post
Obviously, it seems like there could be no relationship b/t Phillip's issue and TT's issue. But, if not, that is some fairly insane coincidence.
Is there a TLDR on what's happening with TT (in contrast to Phillip), or is the answer higher up in the thread?

Who knows what's happening. This is what TT told me last week.
We experienced an issue with one of order connectors that connects to the CME exchange. We received reports of the inability to place or cancel orders. Our engineering team was alerted of these issues and performed a failover to resolve the issue. All connections properly failed-over and customers reported the issue to be resolve. Please contact your clearing firm or the exchange to verify order status of any orders that may have been impacted by this issue. Our engineering team is currently investigating the root cause of this and we will provide more information when it becomes available.
Normally they then quietly close the ticket as issue fixed everything resolved and no follow up. The fact that this has happened three times since Thursday is concerning to me, but not to them.

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SMCJB View Post
Who knows what's happening. This is what TT told me last week.
We experienced an issue with one of order connectors that connects to the CME exchange. We received reports of the inability to place or cancel orders. Our engineering team was alerted of these issues and performed a failover to resolve the issue. All connections properly failed-over and customers reported the issue to be resolve. Please contact your clearing firm or the exchange to verify order status of any orders that may have been impacted by this issue. Our engineering team is currently investigating the root cause of this and we will provide more information when it becomes available.
Normally they then quietly close the ticket as issue fixed everything resolved and no follow up. The fact that this has happened three times since Thursday is concerning to me, but not to them.

Their latest:

TT Outage : CME Order Routing Issues (PENDING)


We are going to disable trading on CME today. NO NEW Trades.

We are going begin manually Closing all OPEN positions on CME and cancelling any working orders.

We will then disable trading on TT - until further notice



We will email you once this is done.

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  #241 (permalink)
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@Lfx987 who is "we" in that update?

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SMCJB View Post
@Lfx987 who is "we" in that update?

AMP sent the email, the text reads exactly as I copy/pasted it.

No explicit declaration of who "we" refers to.

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  #243 (permalink)
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Thanks. Assume we in that case is AMP/AMP Customers then.

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Any mods out there that can split the thread?

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fivewhy View Post
Obviously, it seems like there could be no relationship b/t Phillip's issue and TT's issue. But, if not, that is some fairly insane coincidence.
Is there a TLDR on what's happening with TT (in contrast to Phillip), or is the answer higher up in the thread?

These are completely unrelated. The TT issues is impacting multiple FCMs. Phillip is just an FCM that offers TT but isn't a part of this issue.

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  #247 (permalink)
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I do not have any specific interest in the PC – NT issue here as such
But I am wondering if anyone have heard or read about if institutions, proprietary trading firm or hedge funds who had the same issue with PC at the same time or is this solo an retail trader issue?
Further the issue with TT is mentioned – To me – Again I am an outsider- but it seems like TT reacted fast as send out instruction on how to behave, where as CP/NT seemed were slow on this from what I can read here.
Just my thoughts for what it is worth……

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TraderMich View Post
I do not have any specific interest in the PC – NT issue here as such But I am wondering if anyone have heard or read about if institutions, proprietary trading firm or hedge funds who had the same issue with PC at the same time or is this solo an retail trader issue?

That is a great question. Not sure how we get an answer to that.

TraderMich View Post
Further the issue with TT is mentioned – To me – Again I am an outsider- but it seems like TT reacted fast as send out instruction on how to behave, where as CP/NT seemed were slow on this from what I can read here.

Urhhh no. TT's response as always is vague and non-committal with CYA recommendations to 'check with the exchange'. It now looks like they deployed a fix over the weekend, to correct the outage we saw last week, and that 'fix' was the cause of all the problems this week. They claim to have deployed a fix last night during downtime to fix the broken fix! The quick and decisive TT responses you have seen in this thread, have been by the brokers themselves who have customers using TT, and not TT themselves.

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SMCJB View Post
That is a great question. Not sure how we get an answer to that.

Urhhh no. TT's response as always is vague and non-committal with CYA recommendations to 'check with the exchange'. It now looks like they deployed a fix over the weekend, to correct the outage we saw last week, and that 'fix' was the cause of all the problems this week. They claim to have deployed a fix last night during downtime to fix the broken fix! The quick and decisive TT responses you have seen in this thread, have been by the brokers themselves who have customers using TT, and not TT themselves.

Thank you for the clarification regarding TT - My point was that it was good that someone send out instruction fairly quick on how to behave - I am afraid that if I was in the situation I would have closed the false trade, and thinking: Better safe than sorry - And by doing to be sorry that I would ending up with at trade I did not want without knowing it until later.

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  #250 (permalink)
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SMCJB View Post
That is a great question. Not sure how we get an answer to that.

Urhhh no. TT's response as always is vague and non-committal with CYA recommendations to 'check with the exchange'. It now looks like they deployed a fix over the weekend, to correct the outage we saw last week, and that 'fix' was the cause of all the problems this week. They claim to have deployed a fix last night during downtime to fix the broken fix! The quick and decisive TT responses you have seen in this thread, have been by the brokers themselves who have customers using TT, and not TT themselves.

Mmm .. this thread brings back memories from my PFG Best experience in 2009. I read in this thread that the industry is “ heavily regulated but they are Self Regulated” . As a qualified Lead Auditor I cringe when I hear these 2 words in the same sentence. For those that have time feel free to read up on the “Heavily regulated” banking industry in Australia in 2019 Royal Commission Inquiry that also had an “oversight body”. The mere fact that traders come to a forum like this to ask for help tells me the industry are not well regulated. There must be clear instructions for a sole trader to follow, there must be clear guidelines/regulations for a broker to disclose issues with their platform to all their traders and not wait till someone complains or refer them to the exchange.
Again with PFG best there were thousands of traders that had a similar experience yet me at the time had no idea. I had to push and push for the trading desk to admit at the end there was an issue. The collapse of so many “heavily regulated financial industries/banks” in 2009 is yet another example.

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beske View Post
My statement from 4/2 was corrected, so nothing on that.

The statement from 5/2 was also corrected but wrongfully. I had an up day but they stated that I had a down day on positions I did not take. My two "real" trades were not on it.

I did close automatically opened positions on Friday.

Today 8/2 I did trade (3 trades in the green). I hope it didn't affect anything. I didn't know that it was best not to trade.

I reported everything to NT and PC. I really hope they resolve the issue...

Grtz...

Hi guys

A quick update.

Ninjatrader Brokerage and PC corrected the wrong statement and added the wrongfully lost amount back to my account without any further discussion.

I think they resolved the matter professionally and correct.

I hope you had the same experience.

Grtz

Beske

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  #252 (permalink)
Chicago IL
 
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beske View Post
Hi guys

A quick update.

Ninjatrader Brokerage and PC corrected the wrong statement and added the wrongfully lost amount back to my account without any further discussion.

I think they resolved the matter professionally and correct.

I hope you had the same experience.

Grtz

Beske

Can confirm. Got an email stating that the loss will be refunded today; shown under “Trade Error Refund” in the daily statement.
NT brokerage handled this very well in the end. Confidence in NTB restored

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  #253 (permalink)
Boston Massachusetts
 
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bobwest View Post
I would note that the head of @NinjaTrader has publicly committed to reimburse all the NinjaTrader customers affected by this situation.

I would hold your outrage until there is more cause for it. I'm not minimizing the frustration nor the feeling of upset, but the firm has made a public commitment to its customers, which should count for something.

Also, everyone should make sure they are following the recommended procedures that have been laid out in this thread for contacting NT about their issues, and in particular, not to trade to offset the erroneous balances they found on their statements, which can only make the situation more complicated to unwind.

Again, I am not a representative of NinjaTrader or Phillips, just someone who has tried to stay on top of things in this thread. Anyone with an issue should be in contact with Ninja directly.

Bob.


i have a NT account and use Phillips. However, I did not have a problem with my account. I did not have any trades recorded with errors. but I want to say it is wonderful to see NT stand up and say they will reimburse all those who did have problems. I feel much better about my broker NT. God Bless NT and all their people. and i guess Phillips also if they are joining with NT to support the customers on this problem.

I just wanted to add the idea that not all clients here ran into a problem. thank god i did not. I really feel for those who had problems.

I know back in the old days of floor traders this was common. and the solution back then was to pass the losses around to the floor traders to absorb. and a lot of innocent floor traders accepted losses made by other traders. the books had to be balanced every day. it was one of the risks a floor trader used to take. there were some larger floor traders who took very large losses to help cover errors.

however if they found the floor trader who refused to accept his losses and lied to avoid the losses he was shunned. and no one would trade with him again. so he was sort of pushed out of the business. you can not have people who refuse to accept their losses who were responsible for them. often just lying saying they never made the bad trade. things are much better now with computers running more of the show.

back in the old days commissions for trading were super large. i remember back in 1968 paying $75 commissions on a one lot trade. and no one had even imagined having software to watch price back then. not even the big brokers. even companies did not have computers. then in 1980 there was one discount firm changing the low price of only $25 a contract. now they claim commissions under $1, much of that has to be due to the efficiency of computers. errors are now very rare. but i guess they did happen. once the computer error is fixed the error should not happen again.

I would not be hard on the companies. they have done a wonderful job of helping the trader with reduced cost of commissions and graphics software available to help the trader trade better. this is an effort of everyone. over time into the future it only keeps getting better.

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  #254 (permalink)
Dayton Ohio
 
 
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I am still awaiting a "decision" to be made between NT / PC. I am hoping my delay is stemmed from the fact that I didnt see any of the warning emails until after closing an invalid position. This also meant I traded during 2/4 & 2/5, potentially making all of this more difficult to reconcile. Now after receiving the first set of corrected statements, everything seemed to line up with my account so I thought I was good to trade on 2/9. After 2/9 and the final set of corrected statements, I found that everything was not fine, and I should'nt have been trading at all. Not sure what to trust in terms of statements, and at this point my memory of those trade days are biased.

I took a loss from the results of me closing the invalid position, as it pushed me into a short once the invalid long went away, and I was immediately upside down ~10 points. But the other concerning issue arises from the correction of 2/5 from a profitable day, into a loss incurring day.

Not sure how this is going to shake out, but this certainly reminds me of murphy's law and now I know how to handle account issues moving forward. I will say that NT has maintained communication, albeit vague communication, and because I did continue to trade, this is taking time to sort out. Hopefully there will be some reconciliation, as I am willing to accept some responsibility on my part I am not expecting for my account to go back to where it was 2/4 / 2/5.

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  #255 (permalink)
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I, too, was impacted by the Phillip Capital fiasco. A successful rogue trade on Feb. 4th showed me up almost $9,000 and I immediately closed the position. I woke up the next morning and I showed I was down nearly $2,000 and closed the position again. It wasn't until after closing the second position that I noticed an email advising not to take any action and to contact NinjaTrader.

After receiving a "corrected" statement, Phillip Capital ended up not recognizing the gain, but only adjusted my account down after recognizing the $2,000 loss. I sent an email to NinjaTrader explaining what my account balance was before the rogue trades. When I contacted NinjaTrader support, they scolded me like I was a child. It really pissed me off at their attitudes. They told me that because I had acted on trades that I had not initiated, I accepted responsibility for my position...but Phillip Capital seemed to only recognize the losing trade.

I did not hear from anyone until today, where they claim they are reimbursing me and putting my account back to where it was before the rogue trades.

I am happy with that. That is the right thing to do. I just wish they had kept in closer touch with me.

I would like to see better messaging if this type of thing happens again. Rather than merely say take no action, they should significantly expand their announcement by saying "Don't close or do anything else with your account and call this number (XXX) XXX-XXXX so NinjaTrader can fix it. Otherwise you may be responsible for the trade..." - Something on this order.

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  #256 (permalink)
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jyonan View Post
I, too, was impacted by the Phillip Capital fiasco. A successful rogue trade on Feb. 4th showed me up almost $9,000 and I immediately closed the position. I woke up the next morning and I showed I was down nearly $2,000 and closed the position again. It wasn't until after closing the second position that I noticed an email advising not to take any action and to contact NinjaTrader.

After receiving a "corrected" statement, Phillip Capital ended up not recognizing the gain, but only adjusted my account down after recognizing the $2,000 loss. I sent an email to NinjaTrader explaining what my account balance was before the rogue trades. When I contacted NinjaTrader support, they scolded me like I was a child. It really pissed me off at their attitudes. They told me that because I had acted on trades that I had not initiated, I accepted responsibility for my position...but Phillip Capital seemed to only recognize the losing trade.

I did not hear from anyone until today, where they claim they are reimbursing me and putting my account back to where it was before the rogue trades.

I am happy with that. That is the right thing to do. I just wish they had kept in closer touch with me.

I would like to see better messaging if this type of thing happens again. Rather than merely say take no action, they should significantly expand their announcement by saying "Don't close or do anything else with your account and call this number (XXX) XXX-XXXX so NinjaTrader can fix it. Otherwise you may be responsible for the trade..." - Something on this order.

Glad to hear NT is refunding you the losses. I'm still waiting on mine but the more I read about others getting their money back, the more respect I have for NT. I hope I hear back from them soon.

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  #257 (permalink)
Dayton Ohio
 
 
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jyonan View Post
I, too, was impacted by the Phillip Capital fiasco. A successful rogue trade on Feb. 4th showed me up almost $9,000 and I immediately closed the position. I woke up the next morning and I showed I was down nearly $2,000 and closed the position again. It wasn't until after closing the second position that I noticed an email advising not to take any action and to contact NinjaTrader.

After receiving a "corrected" statement, Phillip Capital ended up not recognizing the gain, but only adjusted my account down after recognizing the $2,000 loss. I sent an email to NinjaTrader explaining what my account balance was before the rogue trades. When I contacted NinjaTrader support, they scolded me like I was a child. It really pissed me off at their attitudes. They told me that because I had acted on trades that I had not initiated, I accepted responsibility for my position...but Phillip Capital seemed to only recognize the losing trade.

I did not hear from anyone until today, where they claim they are reimbursing me and putting my account back to where it was before the rogue trades.

I am happy with that. That is the right thing to do. I just wish they had kept in closer touch with me.

I would like to see better messaging if this type of thing happens again. Rather than merely say take no action, they should significantly expand their announcement by saying "Don't close or do anything else with your account and call this number (XXX) XXX-XXXX so NinjaTrader can fix it. Otherwise you may be responsible for the trade..." - Something on this order.


This is more or less the same situation I am in, much smaller amounts. I didnt see the emails until after I closed the rogue position, and had traded for two days likely with bad account data prior to this (Not by much, but enough that my strategy testing was using E Mini's instead of micros. I am still awaiting a response, and currently this has wiped out my small development account.

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  #258 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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@jyonan sorry for your losses. Trading is tough enough without having to deal with issues like this. Not trying to single out you here, but trying to address what I consider to be a common misconception. With regards to this comment

jyonan View Post
After receiving a "corrected" statement, Phillip Capital ended up not recognizing the gain ...
and
... but Phillip Capital seemed to only recognize the losing trade.

Based upon the way you have explained everything there is no winning trade to recognize. The winning trade never happened. The position that showed up $9000 wasn't real. That's the root cause of the problem. When you closed it you actually created a new position that was real. If the winning trade was real there would be no losing trade because the trade that caused the losses would have been closing the winner and not opening a new trade.

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  #259 (permalink)
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SMCJB View Post
@jyonan sorry for your losses. Trading is tough enough without having to deal with issues like this. Not trying to single out you here, but trying to address what I consider to be a common misconception. With regards to this comment

Based upon the way you have explained everything there is no winning trade to recognize. The winning trade never happened. The position that showed up $9000 wasn't real. That's the root cause of the problem. When you closed it you actually created a new position that was real. If the winning trade was real there would be no losing trade because the trade that caused the losses would have been closing the winner and not opening a new trade.

Yes...this is probably what actually happened.

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  #260 (permalink)
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jyonan View Post
Yes...this is probably what actually happened.

This is exactly what happened, I only know this because when this all occurred for me, it was in the small window before the final fixes occurred 2/7 between globex open and 8pm EST. I close the non-existent position right after open, then around 8 pm I saw the resulting position appear on my account, at the price I closed the non-existent position at (because I manually closed it).

I am fortunate to report that I have received updates from NT/PC and a resolution has been reached. I certainly appreciate NT for working overtime to try to make things right for, what really amounts to my own mistake. This definitely has confirmed to me that I made the right decision picking up the lifetime license (a week before all of this happened). For anybody else still awaiting how things will be resolved, I think they are starting to get caught up on getting these situations analyzed and resolved.

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  #261 (permalink)
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I’m still in discussion with Ninja Trader (NT) and rebate seems only 50% coverage for Phillip Capital (PC) screw up. I notice user Beske got his money back. Did anyone else here got their money back 100%?

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