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All you need
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All you need

  #1931 (permalink)
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Confluence of events


omaron View Post
I was but i was also wondered about more then breakout.. the rules... Just in you last example, there was a +9 ticks on upside break... now... +9 is not too much, i've seen most people use at least +10 ticks as first profit target. What we do here? We would have to take a loss, and wait for the downside move. So, how much the loss? This can happen again, and not once. Would need good money management to be profitable.

Omar

P.S. You don;t have to take my thoughts as a fact.. i am just a "simulator"

Omaron,

You are correct. Money management is key.

I find it helpful to look at a 20 and 30 range bar chart along with the 30 minute. If there is a confluence of events occuring I find the probability of the trade working will be increased.( Confluence meaning .....all charts saying the same thing)

On this mornings upside breakout....I decided not to take it for several reasons. One was the recent swing high was not taken out. What happened was the market went exactly to the recent high and formed a double top. This gave me confidence to take the next short signal which occurred before the downside breakout.

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  #1932 (permalink)
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With the 30' min break out system it is always a question is better initiate trade immediately or wait for the weakness and then for confirmation?

Regarding money management, it looks like it becomes very obscure term, nobody knows which MM better, like nobody knows which indicator is better? Is past performance of MM parameters ensure it's viability in the future ?

I think MM is necessary condition, but not the only one required.

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  #1933 (permalink)
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Nobody knows???



record100 View Post
With the 30' min break out system it is always a question is better initiate trade immediately or wait for the weakness and then for confirmation?

Regarding money management, it looks like it becomes very obscure term, nobody knows which MM better, like nobody knows which indicator is better? Is past performance of MM parameters ensure it's viability in the future ?

I think MM is necessary condition, but not the only one required.

Hey record100,

I have to take issue with you concerning the "nobody knows" statements. Perhaps nobody can tell you what is right for your trading style.

Money mangement is easier for a scalper.....not a lot of decisions about reducing risk and moving or trailing stops.

Multi position traders usually take small profits early in a trade and move the stop up as they take contracts off.

I think if you want to be more conservative on breakout trades...that is waiting for a pullback for your entry that's fine. But for me....I like to be on the train when it is leaving the station. These are personal decisions that each trader must make.

As far as past performance for MM parameters goes......every moment in the market is unique. You never know how far a trade will go. So......Money Management is really RISK management for any possible situation.

Personally, I like to have some confirmation of breakouts for extra confidence.

Good Trading, Jeff

One more thing.....I want to let you know what the best indicator is......there is none...don't use them. Messing with indicators takes away from the time you should be learning to trade. That I know.


Last edited by Jeff Castille; November 24th, 2009 at 11:29 PM.
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  #1934 (permalink)
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Jeff Castille View Post
Hey record100,

I have to take issue with you concerning the "nobody knows" statements. Perhaps nobody can tell you what is right for your trading style. Just get your small, quick target and out.

Money mangement is easier for a scalper.....not a lot of decisions about reducing risk and moving or trailing stops.

As far as past performance for MM parameters goes......every moment in the market is unique. You never know how far a trade will go. So......Money Management is really RISK management for any possible situation.

Personally, I don't like to have some confirmation of breakouts for extra confidence.

Good Trading, Jeff

One more thing.....I want to let you know what the best indicator is......there is none...don't use them. Messing with indicators takes away from the time you should be learning to trade. That I know.

Multi position traders usually take small profits early in a trade and move the stop up as they take contracts off.

I think if you want to be more conservative on breakout trades...that is waiting for a pullback for your entry that's fine. But for me....I like to be on the train when it is leaving the station. These are personal decisions that each trader must make.


I agree with Jeff. Everyone is always talking about money management, but at the end of the day it is really risk management. You are managing your risk in the trade. As Jeff stated in the above quote, "every moment in the market is unique. You never know how far a trade will go" and I will add to that "will not go" or "will not go at all".

Trading is a tough business. I have found that traders are constantly using terms that other traders think they understand and really don't or they have a different understanding altogether. I feel money management is one of those terms. People always talk about it, but many don't really understand it. Many traders I know talk about money management but at the end of the day, what they are really refering to is risk management. Even once you are in a trade and are green, you are still managing any risk to the downside from where you currently are at in the trade. I hope I make sense

Grk

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  #1935 (permalink)
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Jeff cleans up his previous post


GrkBear View Post
I agree with Jeff. Everyone is always talking about money management, but at the end of the day it is really risk management. You are managing your risk in the trade. As Jeff stated in the above quote, "every moment in the market is unique. You never know how far a trade will go" and I will add to that "will not go" or "will not go at all".

Trading is a tough business. I have found that traders are constantly using terms that other traders think they understand and really don't or they have a different understanding altogether. I feel money management is one of those terms. People always talk about it, but many don't really understand it. Many traders I know talk about money management but at the end of the day, what they are really refering to is risk management. Even once you are in a trade and are green, you are still managing any risk to the downside from where you currently are at in the trade. I hope I make sense

Grk

Hey GrkBear,

I just read my post and it was a little messed up.....I was in a hurry to go and eat dinner. I cleaned it up a bit so it makes more sense now. Sorry.

Jeff

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  #1936 (permalink)
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GrkBear View Post
Trading is a tough business. I have found that traders are constantly using terms that other traders think they understand and really don't or they have a different understanding altogether. I feel money management is one of those terms.

Money management is a bit vague.

I prefer:

risk management - evaluating the risk of a trade and making sure risk is acceptable. This includes not only stop & target, but also is the stop too big, are we in chop, is it a no trade zone, is there S/R nearby before your target, is the move already very extended, etc.

position sizing - how many contracts do I do?

the latter is actually easy if you read Tharp's book - just do 1 contract until you're consistently profitable (for months) then increase gradually, never risking more than 1% of your account.

The first takes a lot of practice.

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  #1937 (permalink)
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I am not interested in term itself, whether it is money management, or risk management. We need to be practical, talk about models, parameters and parameters optimization ... Like CL, 1 car, optimal stop is 11 tick, optimal target is 6 tick. Is it right, or wrong ?

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  #1938 (permalink)
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record100 View Post
I am not interested in term itself, whether it is money management, or risk management. We need to be practical, talk about models, parameters and parameters optimization ... Like CL, 1 car, optimal stop is 11 tick, optimal target is 6 tick. Is it right, or wrong ?

That depends on the timeframe / bar size, the time of day, what kind of day it is, the personality of the trader (quick scalp or runner), etc. It's an individual choice which in my opinion only comes with a lot of practice and trial & error.

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  #1939 (permalink)
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cunparis View Post
Money management is a bit vague.

I prefer:

risk management - evaluating the risk of a trade and making sure risk is acceptable. This includes not only stop & target, but also is the stop too big, are we in chop, is it a no trade zone, is there S/R nearby before your target, is the move already very extended, etc.

position sizing - how many contracts do I do?

the latter is actually easy if you read Tharp's book - just do 1 contract until you're consistently profitable (for months) then increase gradually, never risking more than 1% of your account.

The first takes a lot of practice.


Hey Cunparis,

I agree with your statement. I was just trying to keep it simple and commenting on the term itself. Risk management (money management to some as they like to call it) encompasses a wide variety of factors as you have stated above. I was being lazy and should have expanded as you did. Thanks.

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  #1940 (permalink)
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record100 View Post
I am not interested in term itself, whether it is money management, or risk management. We need to be practical, talk about models, parameters and parameters optimization ... Like CL, 1 car, optimal stop is 11 tick, optimal target is 6 tick. Is it right, or wrong ?


Record100,

That is something you are going to have to find out for yourself. Everyone trades different. These factors will be dependent on many things such as: your psychology, experience, account size, style of trading, time of day, etc...

I trade with a few traders daily and we all are trading the same method, but half the time some are taking the trade and others are not based on what they are seeing (processing the chart in front of them). At the end of the day, not everyone has taken the same trades or used the same stops or tp's. It is an individualistic task. Trading at the end of the day is a one man show, YOU. My group was formed to help each other and learn together. At the end of the day, everyone learns and processes at different speeds and levels based on a whole slew of factors, the primary one being the experience you bring to the table.

I am not saying this is the way it always is, it may be different for others, but this is what I have experienced as the individuals in my group have as well.

Grk

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