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Micro account vs Funded account (combine)


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Micro account vs Funded account (combine)

  #31 (permalink)
 
Nolaughingmatter's Avatar
 Nolaughingmatter 
San Francisco
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Thinkorswim
Trading: NQ
Posts: 46 since Jun 2020
Thanks Given: 63
Thanks Received: 82


arielalejandro View Post
Hello everyone. First of all I think this thread should go in this forum, if not, please feel free to move it where it belongs, and also I´m not english native speaker, so sorry in advance for any mistake.
Here we go:
I was studying and practicing paper trading with the Thinkorswim platform for quite a long time now with real time data. I started to read about trading and markets probably almost 3 years ago, and when I started to do paper trading basically was a gambling, shooting at everything that moves. Needless to say the result of that so I kept reading but not "trading"
Time passed and started to do paper trading again with an action plan, stop and profit target, sizing, etc etc and with the determination to follow those rules to be as realistic as possible. Things started to do well and I started to be profitable (in the simulator, I know)
Also I read about the psicological effect of being live or not, so here I am now.
I´m in a mini gaunlet 50k combine, trading with only 1 ES contract to keep the losses in check, althou I can´t. Tried to execute as always, with the same parameters as I always did after 6 months of paper trading but I can feel the "fear" knowing that in the end there´s money in stake, even the monthly fee of the gaunlet. $-300 the first day, $-500 today. I don´t know how it will end but I can guess...

So, if I fail with the gaunlet, from your experience, wouldn´t be better to start with a micro account where a big movement in price doesn´t take too much of loss, since the MES only has $1.25 per tick and start from there and forget about earn money (I don´t have the rush to have 1 million in 2 days, I´m not that kind of guys) at least at first but at least get used to been live and at least cover the costs of the operations (fees, commisions and platform?)

On a side note, the reason of taking so much time to decide getting live somehow is because I really wanted to have a strategy that could work and I think I found it, because 6 months of paper trading with military discipline and annotating, each day the results, gave me the confidence to go with the gaunlet.

Sorry for the extension of the post but I wanted to be as clear as possible about the whole situation.
Thank you for you time.
Ariel.

Hi Ariel,

I am new and I have also been struggling. I'm also Paper trading on Thinkorswim.

I have studied a lot of materials, but none of the materials were as helpful and concise as Ameritrade's Education Center, which is free to Ameritrade customers.

If you take the Technical Analysis Course, you will identify breakout patterns better. There are also many other useful courses and webcasts available for free.

If you improve your entry and exit points, you will go green, as I am now on Paper Trading.

The time you trade is also of the greatest importance. I prefer trading the last 30 minutes before close. Most traders suggest the first hour of open, but I found myself trading all day and racking up losses more quickly than gains. The momentum, volume, and liquidity of the last 30 minutes before close is enough to quickly fulfill a trade.

Another thing is to set a target of 4 points and 4 points stop. Use an OCO bracket. If it reaches one order, the entire OCO bracket will cancel. I got this suggestion from Barry Taylor's E-mini guide. I don't know if that applies to MES, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. Play around with a couple of different stops and targets for the OCO bracket.

I found letting the 4 point target, 4 point stop do the work is infinitely better than me interfering by prematurely ending trades. Many times I ended the trade early because I didn't want to see small earnings erased, only to see the target be eventually reached. Try not to watch the movements. The OCO bracket will take the stress and guesswork out. Manually scalping also leads to racking up of commissions.

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  #32 (permalink)
 Houston Jr 
Houston, Texas
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Broker: Mirus
Trading: ES,6E
Posts: 19 since Sep 2010
Thanks Given: 3
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Don’t kid yourself, what ever strategy you build, or adopt, you will have losses. To me, the secret is keep losses small and MES is as good as any or run in SIM .
Perhaps consider a funding company if you need capital such as Leeloo.

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  #33 (permalink)
arielalejandro
Córdoba
 
Posts: 27 since Apr 2020
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F10trades View Post
What’s up dude. I will share my experience and thoughts as a trader who has traded a personally funded live account as well as my experience as a trader for Helios currently.
I think to begin you should ask yourself if you have a definitive plan/edge/setup that you’ve collected data on while you were paper trading on TOS. Your 3years paper trading/learning won’t mean much if you havent collected data, data with favorable outcomes that you really can lean on over a period of time. You should have clear planS on how to effectively manage risk, how to effectively manage your trades, how to log and evaluate trades (important as markets changes and you have to be quick to adapt or at least notice when your edge is blunted), and how to manage your psychological aspect of trading. Sounds a bit excessive but let’s be real this is YOUR BUSINESS, and this is important regardless if you trade for yourself or for Helios. If you have CLEAR direction in your trading, you will feel less of the “uncertainty” that you are feeling that is preventing you from going live.

Yes I have collected data and statistics and that made me think in going live, basically becuase I had something that is working but I needed the live "feelings" to have whole picture. Over the time I developed a risk management rules to keep the losses in check. At first of course was only focused on profits and the level of gambling was high, but looking back now I can see that I did some good changes, so the next step is going live, see what I mean?


F10trades View Post
I passed the 25k MG in 15 days trading 1-5contracts of the MNQ with 4,320 in profits, so it’s possible to pass using the micro contracts in a reasonable amount of time. You SHOULD NOT be trading regular emini on a 2k account. I can almost guarantee that if you do you will fail your MG. You just won’t have enough breathing room to make reasonable trades.

Awesome, congrats! Agree about not using E-mini in the 25k account


F10trades View Post
Not with That out of that out of the way let’s get real. How much money would actually drop on you account 1k? 2k $500? Do you think you can effective manage that money? If you start a mini gauntlet 50k at 170 a month, let’s say for 2months that 340 dollars. Being that you trade the Es/Mes that’s 6.8pts on the ES and 68pts on 1 MES contract. You could blow through that in a week or 15mins if you trade ES and didn’t manage your trade properly. So realistically if you are profitable in your paper trades and you have CLEAR direction in your trading process, and you have some money to blow the go for it. I’m a huge advocate of “funding programs” because they offer the chance to minimize the risk of losing money and it gives you a bit of psychological pressure having to paying for gauntlet or combines. One HUGE plus is having an active risk manager on you EVERYTIME you step in the markets. Sound like a burden but every real trader that trades live will till you that managing risk, stay discipline over time, and staying on track becomes a challenge over time. With these programs they force you to be disciplined and methodical if not you get booted. Being that ypu are a developing trader, you may need that. For me I look at it as paying 20% for an active risk manager which I gladly pay.
At this point I’m probably ranting a rambling. If you have clear edge, know exactly what you are doing, have a sizable chunk of capital then skip the prop firms and trade for yourself.

To be honest I can´t decide yet what to do. Give another try but only with micros or fund an account to also trade only micros.


F10trades View Post
If you are developing, don’t have clear direction, Don’t have a lot of capital, want trading coaches and someone forcing you to be a professional through risk management then try out for a firm through these funding programs. Everyone will rant and cry about how it’s rigged so you fail, but don’t listen to them. Let’s be honest if we can’t reach those metrics (be profitable for longer than 15days, make more than you lose, and be able to apply risk management, then should we really be risking live capital?
Just my two cents and experience from both trading my money and trading for Helios.

On that statment the truth is that I don´t have too much capital (how much is too much?) Anyways I could put let´s say no more than 1k on a micro account and trade no more than 2 micros, that would give enough room to have a reasonable losing trades and not just like one correction movement and I´m out. And what you mention about that if you can´t be profitable within 15 days why open an account with no limits at all. I have a good point there and that was basically my though and that´s why I jumped into the gaunlet.

Thanks again.

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  #34 (permalink)
arielalejandro
Córdoba
 
Posts: 27 since Apr 2020
Thanks Given: 20
Thanks Received: 28


F10trades View Post
What’s up dude. I will share my experience and thoughts as a trader who has traded a personally funded live account as well as my experience as a trader for Helios currently.
I think to begin you should ask yourself if you have a definitive plan/edge/setup that you’ve collected data on while you were paper trading on TOS. Your 3years paper trading/learning won’t mean much if you havent collected data, data with favorable outcomes that you really can lean on over a period of time. You should have clear planS on how to effectively manage risk, how to effectively manage your trades, how to log and evaluate trades (important as markets changes and you have to be quick to adapt or at least notice when your edge is blunted), and how to manage your psychological aspect of trading. Sounds a bit excessive but let’s be real this is YOUR BUSINESS, and this is important regardless if you trade for yourself or for Helios. If you have CLEAR direction in your trading, you will feel less of the “uncertainty” that you are feeling that is preventing you from going live.
I passed the 25k MG in 15 days trading 1-5contracts of the MNQ with 4,320 in profits, so it’s possible to pass using the micro contracts in a reasonable amount of time. You SHOULD NOT be trading regular emini on a 2k account. I can almost guarantee that if you do you will fail your MG. You just won’t have enough breathing room to make reasonable trades.
Not with That out of that out of the way let’s get real. How much money would actually drop on you account 1k? 2k $500? Do you think you can effective manage that money? If you start a mini gauntlet 50k at 170 a month, let’s say for 2months that 340 dollars. Being that you trade the Es/Mes that’s 6.8pts on the ES and 68pts on 1 MES contract. You could blow through that in a week or 15mins if you trade ES and didn’t manage your trade properly. So realistically if you are profitable in your paper trades and you have CLEAR direction in your trading process, and you have some money to blow the go for it. I’m a huge advocate of “funding programs” because they offer the chance to minimize the risk of losing money and it gives you a bit of psychological pressure having to paying for gauntlet or combines. One HUGE plus is having an active risk manager on you EVERYTIME you step in the markets. Sound like a burden but every real trader that trades live will till you that managing risk, stay discipline over time, and staying on track becomes a challenge over time. With these programs they force you to be disciplined and methodical if not you get booted. Being that ypu are a developing trader, you may need that. For me I look at it as paying 20% for an active risk manager which I gladly pay.
At this point I’m probably ranting a rambling. If you have clear edge, know exactly what you are doing, have a sizable chunk of capital then skip the prop firms and trade for yourself. If you are developing, don’t have clear direction, Don’t have a lot of capital, want trading coaches and someone forcing you to be a professional through risk management then try out for a firm through these funding programs. Everyone will rant and cry about how it’s rigged so you fail, but don’t listen to them. Let’s be honest if we can’t reach those metrics (be profitable for longer than 15days, make more than you lose, and be able to apply risk management, then should we really be risking live capital?
Just my two cents and experience from both trading my money and trading for Helios.


Nolaughingmatter View Post
Hi Ariel,

I am new and I have also been struggling. I'm also Paper trading on Thinkorswim.

I have studied a lot of materials, but none of the materials were as helpful and concise as Ameritrade's Education Center, which is free to Ameritrade customers.

If you take the Technical Analysis Course, you will identify breakout patterns better. There are also many other useful courses and webcasts available for free.

If you improve your entry and exit points, you will go green, as I am now on Paper Trading.

The time you trade is also of the greatest importance. I prefer trading the last 30 minutes before close. Most traders suggest the first hour of open, but I found myself trading all day and racking up losses more quickly than gains. The momentum, volume, and liquidity of the last 30 minutes before close is enough to quickly fulfill a trade.

Another thing is to set a target of 4 points and 4 points stop. Use an OCO bracket. If it reaches one order, the entire OCO bracket will cancel. I got this suggestion from Barry Taylor's E-mini guide. I don't know if that applies to MES, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. Play around with a couple of different stops and targets for the OCO bracket.

I found letting the 4 point target, 4 point stop do the work is infinitely better than me interfering by prematurely ending trades. Many times I ended the trade early because I didn't want to see small earnings erased, only to see the target be eventually reached. Try not to watch the movements. The OCO bracket will take the stress and guesswork out. Manually scalping also leads to racking up of commissions.

Thanks and I wish you the best. I see a big difference when I´m focused and let the feeling aside. My entries are where supposed to be and probably I need to work more about the exiting earlier than I should which can be solved with the OCO´s and leave them alone or putting a trailing stop an honor it. I recognize that since the gauntlet has that damn trailing draw-down I say dangerous not taking profits and have the probability of the prices turns back, erase the unrealized profit but moved the trailing draw-down. That was definitely a conflicting factor for me.

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  #35 (permalink)
F10trades
Honolulu
 
Posts: 3 since Apr 2019
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 9


arielalejandro View Post
Yes I have collected data and statistics and that made me think in going live, basically becuase I had something that is working but I needed the live "feelings" to have whole picture. Over the time I developed a risk management rules to keep the losses in check. At first of course was only focused on profits and the level of gambling was high, but looking back now I can see that I did some good changes, so the next step is going live, see what I mean?





Awesome, congrats! Agree about not using E-mini in the 25k account





To be honest I can´t decide yet what to do. Give another try but only with micros or fund an account to also trade only micros.





On that statment the truth is that I don´t have too much capital (how much is too much?) Anyways I could put let´s say no more than 1k on a micro account and trade no more than 2 micros, that would give enough room to have a reasonable losing trades and not just like one correction movement and I´m out. And what you mention about that if you can´t be profitable within 15 days why open an account with no limits at all. I have a good point there and that was basically my though and that´s why I jumped into the gaunlet.



Thanks again.



I totally get where you are at. When I first started trading futures I started on the micros when they first came out. I barely had any money, I would fund a $250 account, blow it up save then do it all over again. Eventually I got a second job and saved 500 and tried again and it stuck, made some money then got taken on my Helios when the MG first came out. So don’t feel bad, I feel like most traders are where you’re at. If I were in your situation, I would 1. Sim trade under the same rules and the MG, if you can pass using micros then try again. Prove to yourself that you can do it first.
2. While you do that save more money. Realistically if this is your first attempt trading live, you’ll burn through a good chunk of that before you get you trade plan to stick. That just how it is, and you account has to be large enough to take let’s just say a 50% hit while still having enough to trade.
3. Of you plan to skip the MG and go live, then don’t! Save more, 1k can work out but, you’ll be pretty rocked when you take hits, which will happen as apart of this business.
4. Live trade and see if you can make enough to cover the cost of an MG. Then use that money to trade an MG.
When you are boot strapped like you are you have to take guard your mental and physical capital while maximizing the best possible outcome.
5. Trade live but REALLY be careful, and if you take a 50% account hit, cut it, reevaluate and go from there.


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  #36 (permalink)
arielalejandro
Córdoba
 
Posts: 27 since Apr 2020
Thanks Given: 20
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F10trades View Post
I totally get where you are at. When I first started trading futures I started on the micros when they first came out. I barely had any money, I would fund a $250 account, blow it up save then do it all over again. Eventually I got a second job and saved 500 and tried again and it stuck, made some money then got taken on my Helios when the MG first came out. So don’t feel bad, I feel like most traders are where you’re at. If I were in your situation, I would 1. Sim trade under the same rules and the MG, if you can pass using micros then try again. Prove to yourself that you can do it first.
2. While you do that save more money. Realistically if this is your first attempt trading live, you’ll burn through a good chunk of that before you get you trade plan to stick. That just how it is, and you account has to be large enough to take let’s just say a 50% hit while still having enough to trade.
3. Of you plan to skip the MG and go live, then don’t! Save more, 1k can work out but, you’ll be pretty rocked when you take hits, which will happen as apart of this business.
4. Live trade and see if you can make enough to cover the cost of an MG. Then use that money to trade an MG.
When you are boot strapped like you are you have to take guard your mental and physical capital while maximizing the best possible outcome.
5. Trade live but REALLY be careful, and if you take a 50% account hit, cut it, reevaluate and go from there.


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Very good points indeed! Thank you for your time and response. About point number 3 that´s why I decided to go to the MG in the first place. I preffered to loose 100 and not 1000 taking in mind that I never been live and with the fact that you´re enforced to do some risk managment.

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  #37 (permalink)
 
Nolaughingmatter's Avatar
 Nolaughingmatter 
San Francisco
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Thinkorswim
Trading: NQ
Posts: 46 since Jun 2020
Thanks Given: 63
Thanks Received: 82


arielalejandro View Post
Thanks and I wish you the best. I see a big difference when I´m focused and let the feeling aside. My entries are where supposed to be and probably I need to work more about the exiting earlier than I should which can be solved with the OCO´s and leave them alone or putting a trailing stop an honor it. I recognize that since the gauntlet has that damn trailing draw-down I say dangerous not taking profits and have the probability of the prices turns back, erase the unrealized profit but moved the trailing draw-down. That was definitely a conflicting factor for me.

You're welcome.

Also on Barry Taylor's E-mini guide, he discourages using Trailing stops. I wondered why, of course. So I actually tested it and he is right. Trailing stops are counter-productive. They only capture small gains during retracements. It's better to leave a wide target and stop do its work.

Granted, the target-stop loss isn't going to work all the time, but manual scalping and overtrading will lead to even bigger losses. At least this creates some discipline.

Let the target exit the trade. It takes time getting used to, but soon you'll see its beauty.

It's also the reason why passive investing yields better results overall for most people than daytrading. It takes out self-sabotaging human emotions out of the trade as much as possible.

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  #38 (permalink)
nckafieh
Los Angeles, United States
 
Posts: 8 since Jun 2017
Thanks Given: 0
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Live trading is much more risk based so just minimize your risk. Shouldn't even be taking a $500 hit use five $100 stop losses and be done. Going down to MES would allow you to maximize that risk factors percentage of success. Giving you a larger window for a green trade which is all you really need... Low risk and a high winning percentage!

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  #39 (permalink)
arielalejandro
Córdoba
 
Posts: 27 since Apr 2020
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Absolutely agree! Thanks!
nckafieh View Post
Live trading is much more risk based so just minimize your risk. Shouldn't even be taking a $500 hit use five $100 stop losses and be done. Going down to MES would allow you to maximize that risk factors percentage of success. Giving you a larger window for a green trade which is all you really need... Low risk and a high winning percentage!

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  #40 (permalink)
dbouzas
Houston, TX
 
Posts: 18 since Jul 2019
Thanks Given: 43
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If your stats are saying 40% or more of the times you have winning trades than you can go with a reward to risk ratio of 1.5:1. Place just 3 trades a day and not risk more than $160 per trade, with a daily max loss of about $450. It's just an example with e-mini's NOT micros. But if your winning trade % is above 40% you should risk manage accordingly to where the probabilities are in your favor. Cut your losses quick knowing that eventually your gonna get your winning trade and profit. If you place 3 consecutive losing trades, your not trading your plan or your plan is not working for the current market environment. Get used to or focus on preserving capital and not so much on making money. If you keep your money and risk manage it well, your eventually going to make money.

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