Webinar: Real-world Order Flow Strategies & Setups w/Scott Pulcini & Bookmap - futures io
futures io futures trading



Webinar: Real-world Order Flow Strategies & Setups w/Scott Pulcini & Bookmap


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated by ScottPulcini
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one ScottPulcini with 13 posts (2 thanks)
    2. looks_two n7ekg with 6 posts (1 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Big Mike with 6 posts (8 thanks)
    4. looks_4 artemiso with 4 posts (9 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one whuffo with 6.0 thanks per post
    2. looks_two artemiso with 2.3 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 fivewhy with 2.0 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Big Mike with 1.3 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 3,154 views
    2. thumb_up 42 thanks given
    3. group 411 followers
    1. forum 48 replies
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 100,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Webinar: Real-world Order Flow Strategies & Setups w/Scott Pulcini & Bookmap

(login for full post details)
  #31 (permalink)
Scottdale Arizona
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jun 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


fivewhy View Post
Fwiw, @ScottPulcini I really appreciated your discussion on the SI Tracker. And I mean I *really* appreciated it.

I just think that, sometimes, these topics are worth more than one hour of discussion.

On that point, I'm going to tag @Bookmap and say, I know Bookmap produces a lot of videos with various vendors. But maybe consider producing more videos on raw education that are not so heavily focused on the "selling the product". Focus on videos to keep customers. Your goal should be to hit critical mass of people successfully using your tools, not critical mass of people merely subscribing to your tool.

The problem, of course, is if you show people how to use the tools they will only use it in that exact manner. They won't understand the concepts behind it or what the tools are really saying about the market. No matter what you say, they will only hear "when iceberg and stop lines go sharply in opposite directions, prepare for a reversal." And they won't develop their own "way" of using the tools because they won't understand what the tools are really saying about the market. They will fail to make the tools their own, which is just the foolish builder building his house on sand and getting swept away in a flood.

So if you could present the education and teach how to use the tools and how to make the tools your own, even if it's a 4 hour long video on youtube, I think you could benefit from it.

I am thoroughly baffled by your post. First off, as far as Bookmap is concerned, they go above and beyond providing educational videos on how to use the product in every aspect, including DAILY FREE webinars by Bruce covering live markets and how to use the software to enhance one's trading. A;sp there are about a hundered videos on how to use the product and ever facet of it that Bruce has produced over three years.

I am also growing quite tired of some of the people in this community telling me that I or Bookmap are trying to "sell" the product. I do webinars as a thank you to Bookmap for keeping me alive in the trading game and I find joy in helping fellow retail traders get on a level playing field with the big money and algos. At no point am I "selling" anything. I give you the information, explain why I think it is the most powerful software I have ever seen, and then give exact examples on how powerful it is. It is up to you to decide if the information that I present could be helpful to you and your trading. If you dont think it is, then dont suscribe to the product. It's that simple.

As far as the webinars I have done for Futures.io, did you actually watch them or just watch the first five minutes and start spewing your opinon in this forum? At what point did I tell viewers exact rules on how to use to the tools? All I do throughout both of them is tell traders that it is up to them to apply the information and incredible edge that Bookmap provides to what makes sense to them and how they trade. I specifically say many times that you do not want to trade like me or anyone else. To become a sucessful trader, you have to learn to develop your own edges with things that make sense to you.

Spend more time studying the markets and developing an edge then blasting people in a forum that are trying to help traders succeed.

Scott Pulcini

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
there may be some data error in TS
TradeStation
Scan by comparing SMAs within 5 mins
ThinkOrSwim
Is your daily return predetermined?
Psychology and Money Management
Thinkorswim poor order execution?
Brokers
FYI plot bug & workaround: changing color or width is delayed 1 bar
EasyLanguage Programming
 
 
(login for full post details)
  #32 (permalink)
Scottdale Arizona
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jun 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


n7ekg View Post
It's not hard to see iceberg orders and stop runs - I see them in Sierra Charts all the time. Now, for other platforms, it might be a different story.

The instructor that helped me see these things on a chart with numbers bars and resting orders has 40 years trading experience and works for a large bank in London. He very rarely loses a trade.

I'm certainly not saying that Bookmap, Jigsaw, etc., aren't useful - it certainly makes things easier to see. But it's certainly not impossible to see order flow without indicators. It's harder, sure. Don't misunderstand my post by jumping to the conclusion that I'm saying that order flow indicators are worthless.

Unless you are using the MBO data provided by the CME and have algos that can interpret the information, then what you think you are seeing in stop runs and icebergs is at best a guess. Again, if you think otherwise then keep doing what you are doing.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #33 (permalink)
Scottdale Arizona
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jun 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received



matthew28 View Post
I would say it mostly comes down to personal taste. You prefer Sierra Chart number bars, so a Footprint Chart, people who like Bookmap prefer the heatmap format, and Jigsaw was originally and still is principally an enhanced DOM. They're all orderflow tools just with a different focus on how they present the information.

They information in the number bars and footprint charts in software vendors like the now defunct Marketdelta is not the the MBO data provided by the CME. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #34 (permalink)
Pahrump, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: AMP
Trading: ES, NQ, CL
 
Posts: 44 since Aug 2016
Thanks: 3 given, 27 received


ScottPulcini View Post
Unless you are using the MBO data provided by the CME and have algos that can interpret the information, then what you think you are seeing in stop runs and icebergs is at best a guess. Again, if you think otherwise then keep doing what you are doing.

It's not a guess at all. How do you think all your indicators were written? It's absolutely not hard to see on a chart, and your repeatedly calling me a liar is unprofessional at best.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my Facebook Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #35 (permalink)
Pahrump, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: AMP
Trading: ES, NQ, CL
 
Posts: 44 since Aug 2016
Thanks: 3 given, 27 received


ScottPulcini View Post
They information in the number bars and footprint charts in software vendors like the now defunct Marketdelta is not the the MBO data provided by the CME. You are comparing apples to oranges.

It doesn't matter. You can certainly see it on a footprint chart if you know what you're looking for. You really need to stop insulting people who disagree with you.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my Facebook Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #36 (permalink)
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT8, Bookmap
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 121 since Feb 2017
Thanks: 53 given, 97 received


ScottPulcini View Post
I am thoroughly baffled by your post. First off, as far as Bookmap is concerned, they go above and beyond providing educational videos on how to use the product in every aspect, including DAILY FREE webinars by Bruce covering live markets and how to use the software to enhance one's trading. A;sp there are about a hundered videos on how to use the product and ever facet of it that Bruce has produced over three years.

I am also growing quite tired of some of the people in this community telling me that I or Bookmap are trying to "sell" the product. I do webinars as a thank you to Bookmap for keeping me alive in the trading game and I find joy in helping fellow retail traders get on a level playing field with the big money and algos. At no point am I "selling" anything. I give you the information, explain why I think it is the most powerful software I have ever seen, and then give exact examples on how powerful it is. It is up to you to decide if the information that I present could be helpful to you and your trading. If you dont think it is, then dont suscribe to the product. It's that simple.

As far as the webinars I have done for Futures.io, did you actually watch them or just watch the first five minutes and start spewing your opinon in this forum? At what point did I tell viewers exact rules on how to use to the tools? All I do throughout both of them is tell traders that it is up to them to apply the information and incredible edge that Bookmap provides to what makes sense to them and how they trade. I specifically say many times that you do not want to trade like me or anyone else. To become a sucessful trader, you have to learn to develop your own edges with things that make sense to you.

Spend more time studying the markets and developing an edge then blasting people in a forum that are trying to help traders succeed.

Scott Pulcini

Dude, seriously? My first two sentences said how much I appreciated what you had said on your video. You quoted those two sentences in your post. You. Quoted. Them.

All I was asking for was more education for the community. If that's a problem for you, then hey. Not a problem. You do you.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #37 (permalink)
Scottdale Arizona
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jun 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


fivewhy View Post
Dude, seriously? My first two sentences said how much I appreciated what you had said on your video. You quoted those two sentences in your post. You. Quoted. Them.

All I was asking for was more education for the community. If that's a problem for you, then hey. Not a problem. You do you.


You then go on to blast Bookmap for "selling" the product and me for telling traders how to specifically use the indicators. Reread your post.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #38 (permalink)
Scottdale Arizona
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jun 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


n7ekg View Post
It doesn't matter. You can certainly see it on a footprint chart if you know what you're looking for. You really need to stop insulting people who disagree with you.

It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you. It's a fact that the info you are looking at is not MBO data from the CME which is far and beyond the MBP data that every other data provider besides Rithmic is using now.

Show some screen shots of the Sierra footprint data that you are using that you are certain shows stop runs and icebergs and help educate the community if thats the case. Would love to see them.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #39 (permalink)
Scottdale Arizona
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jun 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


n7ekg View Post
It's not a guess at all. How do you think all your indicators were written? It's absolutely not hard to see on a chart, and your repeatedly calling me a liar is unprofessional at best.

Show me the quote where i say you are a liar. I said you are misinformed if you think what you are looking at is CME MBO data for the stop/iceberg runs and think you can determine such. Again, show some screenshots and we can determine on the spot and help other traders.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #40 (permalink)
New York, NY
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Vanguard 401k
Broker: Yahoo Finance
Trading: Mutual funds
 
Posts: 1,060 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 733 given, 2,212 received


If it helps calm everyone down, I'll weigh in and assert that almost everyone here in this thread is using "icebergs" incorrectly. I'm happy to be proved wrong, the world is a happier place when everyone learns of their own lack of knowledge.


Quoting 
However, with CME MBO data (market-by-order) we know for fact these are the order types transacting.

Myth #1: 100% or near 100% accuracy.

I take it that this claim implies either 0% false positive rate or 0% false negative rate, both of which are fictitious claims.

Whether you're using MBO or MBP, it's always guesswork whether there exists any remaining reserve quantity at a level. For CME, whenever a reserve portion of an order gets revealed, that's after-the-fact and there's nothing guaranteeing that there's any remaining reserve portion to that order. MBO provides more information than MBP so you can make a slightly better inference, but it still withholds the aggressor's tag 210 so it is impossible to deduce with 100% certainty the remaining portion of an order until the price level has been fully cleared - which is the special case where you are 100% sure the remaining portion is 0.

In fact if a vendor truthfully claims they've done the hidden order detection properly, they should be advertising the opposite of 100% - very few hidden orders detected at 0% false positive rate, i.e. a high false negative rate. In practice I've seen as few as 29 hidden orders in a single day on an active ticker (like 6E) when calibrated to 0~% false positive detection.


Quoting 
Larger player use them, because they wish to hide their size with iceberg orders.


Quoting 
Icebergs[..] They are large orders that these big houses[...] like Bank of Americas, the big hedge funds, the quant funds[...use]


Quoting 
So they only have to display a certain percentage[...] I think it's around 10%

Myth #2: Icebergs are mostly used by big firms, to hide big orders.

Actually no, the opposite. You will find that an overwhelming portion of hidden orders on CME are attributable to net liquidity providers (market makers) with small size rather than net liquidity takers with big size. On CME the most common hidden order displays 1 lot and has a reserve portion of 1 lot... not 10%.

I think this myth creeped into futures lore because the behavior you're describing is more prevalent on Inet-based matching engine architectures (like NASDAQ, Cboe FX, Australia), European MTFs, or interbank ECNs.

Myth #3: The market is going to run away from them, so they use icebergs to avoid that.

The main use case for icebergs on CME has never been to hide your size, but rather to allow market makers to provide liquidity at a more aggressive spread. This has been the case if you look as far back as 2006, and they only recently made changes to reduce the benefit to market makers in Q1 2019.

If you don't believe me, you can run the statistical analysis yourself. Averaging across all of a given size VWAP (which is exposed to price improvement from hidden liquidity), you will actually see less realized slippage than the instantaneous sweep estimate (cumulating the visible book till that given size, which will not take into account hidden liquidity). What this means is that your average slippage is actually smaller trading against an iceberg, so on aggregate the hidden orders are actually tightening the spread for you.

The above analysis contradicts Myth #3. What Myth #3 perpetrates is that the average user of the iceberg uses it to reduce their slippage, which in turn means their counterparty trading into the iceberg will experience increased slippage. This is a simple conservation law - you can't have both parties of a trade reducing their slippage.

So if you've been listening to some vendor advertise that you should follow the same direction as the iceberg, they're wrong. The opposite is more likely to be true even though it may seem unintuitive: the truth is, it's usually better to trade into an iceberg.

Myth #4: artemiso is lying to you, check our example on lead month ES.

It puzzled me for some time why vendors like to display their "iceberg detection capabilities" on ES. For obvious futures tickers, I would expect the iceberg-adjusted risk for the market maker is greater on FESX (Eurex) than ES, so it would be a better place to demonstrate the allegedly adverse effect of trading into an iceberg. Why ES? I'm going to make a bold claim: it's because there's so many trades on ES that they can get away with making nonsense up and disguise the worthlessness of their indicator behind large volume of random noise.

So, I can construct 2 edge cases which serve as a lie detection test.

1) Ask your vendor to compute the backtest average 10 second unrealized profit of buying/selling in the same direction as every detected iceberg on ZN. Why ZN in particular? Historically the iceberg-adjusted risk for the market maker is smaller on ZN than ES, meaning a market maker is more willing to tighten their spread using an iceberg, so it's going to be more obvious that your vendor got the sign wrong.

2) Ask your vendor to demonstrate the iceberg detection on a low trade count, high average trade size, high institutional activity product, which should be an even more ideal environment for demonstrating both the accuracy and usefulness iceberg detection than ES. There's a few perfect candidates for this. Let's try the 6E:XF:EURUSD:M0 (tag 55) FX-Link spread i.e. Globex ID 205799 on June 1, 2020 which had a trade volume of 1,130 and 27 trades.

Reply With Quote
The following 9 users say Thank You to artemiso for this post:


futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout > Webinar: Real-world Order Flow Strategies & Setups w/Scott Pulcini & Bookmap


June 24, 2020


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

Introducing Edge Pools: Prop Pricing Model w/Edge Clear

Jul 9
 

Every journal equals ten meals for the hungry

Now
     



Copyright © 2020 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts