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Is anyone actually making money?


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Is anyone actually making money?

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  #201 (permalink)
Houston
 
 
Posts: 174 since Dec 2016
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Tripken View Post
An excellent point and here is something that's been around I'm sure, not mine, but it's always rung true.


System

I disagree 1000% with this statement. Why on earth would I not let someone who makes money teach me how to make money?

Maybe I am confused here, but the whole point in trading is to make money, I hope everyone has not forgotten for that.

Everyone, there comes a time and place where the bullshitting must eventually come to an end.

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  #202 (permalink)
Houston
 
 
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Joseph Connors View Post
All this talk of being "true" to yourself and not following others, brings to mind the story
of the so called "Turtle Traders" from the early 80s. It was supposedly the inspiration for
the movie "Trading Places".

In 1983 commodity traders Richard Dennis and William Eckhardt conducted an experiment
to see if traders were made or born. Dennis believed they were made and could be taught to follow a
specific trading plan with no deviation and Eckhardt believe that they were born with the skills.

Dennis placed and ad in the Wall Street Journal for traders. He received over 1000 replies. He culled
the list down by asking them all a simple question: If you were presented with a trade opportunity
according to the rules of the system but you believed in your heart that it would be a losing trade, would
you execute according to the rules of the system?

VERY few answered that they would execute according to the rules. I believe it was less than 10 of the
original 1000! He hired the ones who said they would execute the system no matter what. Thus were
born the "Turtle Traders" as they became know!

My point is that a disciplined trader can execute any system he is told to execute! Whether or not he believes
in it. Don't get me wrong, believing in a system is VERY important, but I for one can execute a system
that I know makes money even if I don't believe every trade will turn out.

Joseph Connors,

You are right.

If someone knows how to make money listen to them and follow them. Simple. All this other talk is really silly to me.

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  #203 (permalink)
Knoxville Tennessee USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Trading: ES, NQ, CL, /6E futures options.
 
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RockywoBalboa View Post
Hi Kyron,

With only 10 weeks in to the trading, I would say you are very new to the trading world. It will help you greatly, trust me on this fella, if you wouldn't pay too much attention to why things aren't working 100% of the times, nothing is 100% in this trading world. If your strategy works 50% of the times, this would be a good start and with more experience you yourself will be able to tweak to make it 70-90%.

What you are learning from the Australian guy seems a good approach to me, as far as you get 3-4 opportunities about everyday and at least 3 times a week, you can do the math. On MES, this strategy should be able to give you on an average profit of 100-200$ (after commissions) about everyday with only one contract. Then its all about either moving to ES or scaling MES first and then moving to ES, whatever path you go with.

I've traded penny stocks, mid-cap stocks, options on mid and large caps before finally I settled with Futures from last 7-8 months purely because of tax benefits. Otherwise, I had been good with day trading options as well, just long calls and puts. I've total experience of 4-5 years with real money trading making sometime, losing sometime and the cycle goes on and on. So you are hearing from a amateur trader but with a wide spectra of experience.

Here is what I would like to share from my little experience:

The very first thing you have to find out is what type of trader you are. This means what you will be comfortable with. Scalping, swinging within the the day, swinging over couple of days or investing. I swing within the day (which means I like trades which should last anywhere from 15-20 minutes to couple of hours within the day), I do scalp but its not my first preference and I seldom does it. I trade the trend within the day (like the Australian guy is teaching you). Like today, ES was swinging 15 points up and down, I could had sold the tops and bought the bottoms on last two touches making around $400 easily on 2-4 contracts, but I don't trade what I don't like. I've prepared for solid two years to just let price do what I predicted and not enter the trade, this was to control the impulsiveness and really train in realtime how accurate is my pre-market preparation. I wanted to trade the break above or below the flag, which didn't happen so I didn't take more than one trade. The one I took, I was expecting the break to upside after buying the base but it didn't so I exited the trade for a tiny profit. We are not going to make target money everyday.

Do a pre-market study and try to chose a direction based of daily and/or 4hrs charts. Let market shake out for first 15-20 minutes after open, sometimes 5 minutes would be enough, this will come with experience. Once you have watched market for enough time (it took me about 2 years as I've a full time job as well and it was not feasible to watch market in action everyday with a day job), I would say 4-6 months should be enough depending on person's learning capability.

Then mark the consolidation range and trade break of top or bottom after confirmation only. Generally, market break in the direction of 4hrs and daily charts as bigger time frames control what will happen during coming few days. You can use 9EMA, 8EMA along with breakout. This is the simplest and in use by most day traders. Check some youtube videos, bullishbears.com have explained it best. They use it for stocks but this can be used with any instrument in this world that can be traded.

At last I would say don't be eager to be profitable in few weeks or months. This market has its dark side and to beat the dark siders, we have to be trading with them and not against them. Trading against them can also make money, but that should be with quick in and outs, as done in scalping. There are millions of ways to trade, you just have to find one and become a master of only one.

Last, don't listen to anyone that indicators are lagging. Issue is trying to predict what price will do based of indicators. Price is the king and master price action, then use indicator like Stochastic, MACD, RSI to see what price is doing in general. Never force on what indicator is doing, this will always lead you to lose money.

In trading it is more about learning to control impulsiveness and psychology than what strategy I should use to trade.

Focus on only one instrument, after looking at all main futures I can say ES is probably the best and starting with MES is the right approach.

Last but not the least, PLEASE DON'T BUY any indicator from anyone. No indicator makes us profitable, its how we trade and what we trade makes us profitable.

Happy Trading!

And you are an expert?

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  #204 (permalink)
Houston TX/USA
 
 
Posts: 9 since Jul 2019
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datahogg View Post
And you are an expert?

Hi Datahogg,

No way I'm an expert. With experience and education I've learned what to do and what not to.

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  #205 (permalink)
sweden
 
Experience: Advanced
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Computor generated strategies, Boilinger band Break out and RSI.


1

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  #206 (permalink)
Fletcher NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
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syswizard View Post
$25k loss implies a $500k min. account balance. Who has that account size ?
Note: That's just standard risk management practice (5% max loss). Some traders go as low as 2% max loss per trade.

he is smoking his shoe laces , he is not trading that kind of size.

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  #207 (permalink)
Tokushima, Japan
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Tradovate + Tradingview
Trading: Futures + Stocks
 
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I have enough margin to cover a $25k loss but a $25k loss very much scares me. If you spend $5k a month you need at least $5 million cash to get you through retirement. Add plane, hotel, restaurants, and that little $5 million savings is going to dry up very quickly.

Frankly speaking, I try hard to earn $1k a day, and some days when I am not paying attention or I try and go long and wait too long to cut the loss I end up only making $200-$300 and on rare days I have negative. Most days I earn at least $500. Point I am making is I have never seen a $25k+ day ever with Futures. Stocks for sure when I am PDT.

So not sure where this $25k figure popped up.


syswizard View Post
$25k loss implies a $500k min. account balance. Who has that account size ?
Note: That's just standard risk management practice (5% max loss). Some traders go as low as 2% max loss per trade.


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  #208 (permalink)
Vendor
 
 
Posts: 22 since Nov 2019
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In answer to the OP: I am.

I don't earn enough from my trading to make it a full-time exclusive earner currently, but yes, I make money from my futures trading and am tracking solid improvements in performance.

I am not profitable every day, nor every week, nor even every month, but I'm profitable since I started algo trading and discretionary seasonal ags last year.

It's not been a smooth ride though! At one point two technical errors that caused just two erroneous trades wiped out my previous five months of trading profits. Painful lessons that everyone I know who does this has had in one form or another.

There are a few people worldwide who do this full time, who are what I think of as solo prop traders; one of which I've known for twenty years, so can be certain he's not BS'ing. He knows a few others. So it's not a pipedream to think you can become a full time solo prop trader; they exist. That said, all the folks who do this full time do also have other income streams (teaching, book sales, real estate, other businesses, etc).

There are many others who claim to trade full time, who are full of BS and have other income either earned or inherited, so beware.

I think the best way to do this is;

1/ don't be swept up into thinking you can turn $500 into $1m. You can't, despite what you may have read or heard.
2/ work hard, save up, start small
3/ have low expectations for your first 2-3 years
4/ spend 10,000 hours learning the trade; Markets + Tech setup (eg hardware and software) + Money Management
5/ find trustworthy mentors, paying them if you need to (but make sure not to get conned by assiduously checking their credentials and not agreeing to anything that commits you monetarily without cancellation clauses and ideally guarantees*)

This is what I've done, and still do.... it's working for me.

J

PS. I've noticed some talk of guarantees. I'd run a mile from anyone who guarantees you profit. That's simply impossible, they're lying. But there are many ways of guaranteeing delivery (eg. teaching), guarantees of your (the customer!) satisfaction, etc. Anyone worth their salt selling anything should be happy to offer those and indeed they're enshrined in consumer protection law in most developed nations.

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  #209 (permalink)
Bari, Italy
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 75 since May 2018
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I live in a small italian town (25000 people) and I know a guy who makes a living out of trading, but he trades stocks.
Actually there are people even in south Italy who run this business, but:
they have enough liquidity. Personally I wouldn't start with less than 200000 euros.
they know and use every market instrument, e.g. option strategies, portfolio construction with different kind of risky assets and so on.
they don't trade a small future account.
So I think that it needs years of work to save the capital to start with, years and years of work to learn to trade.
Finally I think there's much more to learn on Coursera than from trading gurus out there.

My two cents (maybe completely wrong)

P.s. sorry for my poor english, but I think I made it clear

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  #210 (permalink)
Bari, Italy
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 75 since May 2018
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Last but not the least I think there's not a goal in term of profit.
Someone could only make a thousand a year, someone else would make a million (and again it would also depend on many parameters) but for me are both winners in the market.

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  #211 (permalink)
Phoenix AZ USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader Think or Swim
Trading: ES CL
 
Posts: 13 since Apr 2020
Thanks: 170 given, 28 received

Ben detto, Gianni.

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  #212 (permalink)
HYDERABAD, India
 
 
Posts: 3 since Dec 2020
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goodoboy View Post
KyronC,

Good question. Sorry I can't help you, I am a consistently break-even day trader. I am still trying to get profitable.

Almost all successful traders in history have traded on larger timeframes than a day. You can observe that in books containing interviews of successful traders such as Market Wizards.

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  #213 (permalink)
Dunwoody + Georgia/DeKalb
 
Experience: Advanced
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Trading: SPY, Options, Stocks
 
Posts: 6 since Apr 2020
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Well-spoken advice.

The best traders have a plan, certainly a structure they adhere to, and focus acutely on money/risk management. But first, you must decide if you are "investing" or trading.

I can imagine many, many serious "investors" are/can be successful over significant periods of time (not measured in hours). Part of this is the magic of compounding and part through a painstaking examination of data. Corporate balance sheets, etc, etc.

Pretty soon there will be as many books written about trading the "Markets," as have been written about Napoleon.

Cheers,
Gleneagle

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  #214 (permalink)
Philadelphia PA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts
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Trading: Emini ES / NQ
 
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RAGAV View Post
Almost all successful traders in history have traded on larger timeframes than a day. You can observe that in books containing interviews of successful traders such as Market Wizards.

Dude - that was years ago...before everyone had a high speed connection and fast trading platform that could be programmed.
Get with the times.
Some of the HFT firms are making a TON of money trading for ticks.

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  #215 (permalink)
HYDERABAD, India
 
 
Posts: 3 since Dec 2020
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syswizard View Post
Dude - that was years ago...before everyone had a high speed connection and fast trading platform that could be programmed.
Get with the times.
Some of the HFT firms are making a TON of money trading for ticks.

What are the annual returns as part of their total capital? How many HFT firms are there approximately? What is their average return per annum?

Some firms might make huge profits. The average profits of all firms would be less stellar than the high performing ones.

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