Are all Tick Charts Different? - futures io
futures io futures trading



Are all Tick Charts Different?


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated by SunTrader
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one SunTrader with 7 posts (0 thanks)
    2. looks_two Fat Tails with 5 posts (5 thanks)
    3. looks_3 sraman with 5 posts (2 thanks)
    4. looks_4 Bionan with 4 posts (1 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one matthew28 with 18.0 thanks per post
    2. looks_two bobwest with 8.7 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 Hulk with 7.5 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 borch084 with 3.3 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 5,126 views
    2. thumb_up 121 thanks given
    3. group 309 followers
    1. forum 58 replies
    2. attach_file 5 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 100,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Are all Tick Charts Different?

(login for full post details)
  #41 (permalink)
washington, D.C.
 
 
Posts: 22 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 0 given, 11 received


SunTrader View Post
What symbol and timeframe is that chart?

I never understand posting a chart without those details but it is fairly common.

It is ES 3-minute chart. However, my pattern depiction works on any products (stock, bond, futures, forex) and on any timeframes. I didnít want to include those details because I just wanted to show the trend and patterns.

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
TraderSync Experience?
Trading Reviews and Vendors
EQIX - Digital REITs - any experiences?
Stocks and ETFs
Looking freelancer for MT4 Indicator
Platforms and Indicators
Using Built In Volume Profile in the Code
NinjaTrader
OPEN_CLOSE_DOTS
ThinkOrSwim
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
Fundamental question on index trading
21 thanks
Excited and scared at the same time
13 thanks
Advice for best # of Ticks to set charts to for MES or MNQ ?
11 thanks
https://ivytrusts.com/ SCAM ALERT
11 thanks
Is Orderflow An Outdated Concept?
10 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #42 (permalink)
Charlotte NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Ninja Trader Broker CQG
Trading: ES YM CL TF NQ
 
Posts: 404 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 997 given, 1,355 received

Justin

I sent you something from Ninja Trader please read and check with them if want proof it will save you some time. I have traded Macks method for years now its the way I like to trade. I purchased a high speed computer had the internet provider come out to run new lines etc. I went through a lot to try and solve this. At the end of the day you can't fix this. You have to right click on the 2000 tick chart and reload historical data quite often during the day and especial if you are getting ready to take a trade. If you do this the tick chart will alway be the same. I had a friend who used Ninja with a different provider we would reload and all bars would match perfect. This sound goofy but it works and I have done this for years. I haven't posted in along time. I saw this and knew the time I wasted searching for a fix. By the way mack method works so you need to have the correct info with the signal bar that improves your odds.

Thanks
Rick

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Happy Rick for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #43 (permalink)
Chicago, IL
 
 
Posts: 1 since Jan 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


Possibly somewhat unrelated, but here are a few observations I've had using Tradovate.

A. Yes, I've noticed that the 2000t chart displays quite differently than Mack's at PATs.
B. The VWAP indicator is all jacked up.... meaning that it will provide different values
on different charts (what?!). Example: Rarely is the number exactly the same
on my 1m, 5m or 2000t charts. Sometimes it's only a tick or 2 off, sometimes it's as
much as 5 ticks off. I brought this to their attention and their developer
responded:

"...
1. The VWAP's value will depend on the amount of loaded data. If charts
starts at a different time (and they definitely will for small bars) - different values will be seen.

2. Looking to the formulas that is used by us, I have no idea why other platforms
should have identical VWAP values if they are applied to regular bars without volume
profiles. You can use a simple spreadsheet/Excel to see that there is no way to have them identical.
The same way we can expect that the end of an EMA will be the same for different periods.
...."

Unless I'm mistaken, (assuming futures) the vwap begins with the first order of the day....with
respect to its price and it's volume. The next candle (whether it is 1m, 5m, 2000t, whatever)
computes the same thing AND considers what happened on the prevoious candle.
It's odd to me that he things that the VWAP is similar to a MA. And since when to different (1m, 5m, 10m, or 2000t) charts start at "different times"?

C. At least for me, some of the indicators do not work at all, some work (like pivot points) only on
a 5m chart but not on anything smaller.

Small points, true, .... and I haven't left Tradovate because the price is definintely right and
there are NO issues with fills during high volatility times (first and last 30 min of session.)
I wish there was a Tradovate user's group, but the only members area ("community") they have
is a zendesk forum that simply allows you to post questions, requests for platform features
or requests to the independent developer community for special indicators. I've looked all
over and I've not found a users group dedicated specifically to Tradovate.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. If I've got anything wrong here, please correct me.... be gentle.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to AstroTuna for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #44 (permalink)
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Dorman Trading
Trading: ES
 
YogaTrading's Avatar
 
Posts: 53 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 682 given, 108 received

Don't know if this will help or not but here is a suggestion NT code guy once gave me.
I do this every morning in my NT. as best practices.

Go to Control Center, go into tools, hit the historical data button, when it opens to a new menu box....look at the bottom of the menu box for.... 2 tabs
Edit and Load

Click on Load

This will bring up a new menu box
This allows you to reload the tick, minute and day data, check all 3 boxes by default it is minutes.

On the select button, you can select individual instruments or the entire instrument list, I do futures list, which mine is customized.

Now in the date boxes, start date ..end date....they reflect a week, but if you do this every day, you can have the same start date and add one day at a time until the end of the month.
or use the week on week aspect, which is what I do.
It takes a minute or so to load but at that point, you are loading the most recent historical tick data every day.

Don't know if that will help or not.

My 0.02*

Cheers








Happy Rick View Post
Justin

I sent you something from Ninja Trader please read and check with them if want proof it will save you some time. I have traded Macks method for years now its the way I like to trade. I purchased a high speed computer had the internet provider come out to run new lines etc. I went through a lot to try and solve this. At the end of the day you can't fix this. You have to right click on the 2000 tick chart and reload historical data quite often during the day and especial if you are getting ready to take a trade. If you do this the tick chart will alway be the same. I had a friend who used Ninja with a different provider we would reload and all bars would match perfect. This sound goofy but it works and I have done this for years. I haven't posted in along time. I saw this and knew the time I wasted searching for a fix. By the way mack method works so you need to have the correct info with the signal bar that improves your odds.

Thanks
Rick


Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to YogaTrading for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #45 (permalink)
Tarzana, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS, TS, MC, NT8, MT4
Trading: Futures: ES, CL, NQ, HO, SI
 
WildWex's Avatar
 
Posts: 5 since Jul 2017
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


Chile View Post
this is a good discussion.

i do not think it worth fussing about the bars. just use what you have.

the markets are very random. random enough so that the bars do not matter that much.

if you want what Mack has then use the same software that Mack uses. simple as that.

1) It does not matter. You're going to get trading opportunities that Mack may not on his chart.
2) "Use the same software as Mack" - not so easy. Yes, you can use NinjaTrader platform, and he encourages it, but he uses NT7 and he's probably grandfathered in with a broker plan that's no longer offered to newer NT8 traders.

Again - matching your chart to Mack's chart does not matter! It's much more important to build the skill set taught than to worry about the charts matching. This cannot emphasize this enough.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to WildWex for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #46 (permalink)
Tarzana, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS, TS, MC, NT8, MT4
Trading: Futures: ES, CL, NQ, HO, SI
 
WildWex's Avatar
 
Posts: 5 since Jul 2017
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


JonnyBoy View Post
This is a really interesting thread. My data feed is CQG. Not CQG Continuum but CQQ direct. I word it like that because I have a wealth of evidence that these 2 data feeds are "different", contrary to the claims by NinjaTrader that CQG Continuum is just a repackaging of CQG.

Now, to clarify I am specifically talking the chart differences when using tick data. I haven't investigated any other data series as I don't use any other data series.

I have experimented and researched this to the point of exhaustion. I have discussed with NinjaTrader who remain firm with their response that the feeds are identical. I got so granular with my testing that the only conclusion I could draw was the fact that the CQG direct feed and CQG Continuum feed were in fact slightly different. I am not talking night and day here, but very subtle tick data differences. Enough of a difference in some instances, to execute slightly different trade entries on my algorithm or not execute them at all.

The comparisons I made (with some trading friends assistance) was between 4 test beds that were as identical as I could possibly make them. And I mean identical, right down to the PC clock being within nanoseconds of each other, with the same internet feed continuously monitoring data packets to ensure consistency.

2 machines were running CQG and 2 machines were running CQG Continuum. On 1 second tick data there were visible and calculable differences between CQG and CQG Continuum feeds.

The 2 CQG machines were identical live and upon chart refresh. The 2 CQG Continuum macines were identical live and upon chart refresh. But when comparing the 2 feeds there were differences. One conclusion I came to was perhaps it involved exactly WHEN the Bid and Ask changes arrived Ė before a transaction or after it - else I have nothing.

Now, does any of this matter. Well, probably not. You trade what you see and any algorithm using this underlying tick data will produce signals accordingly. The problem arises when this issue means the difference between a winning day and a losing one depending on what feed you have. I have seen it and have a wealth of research to back it up.

Then of course, there's the "order book" and when your trade is placed vs. when other folks trade is placed. While ES is quite liquid, the timing in which you place your trade, vs when others place their trade could be an independent factor that can't be controlled. Even between 2 machines which are essentially in sync, there's the REMOTE, and I state REMOTE possibility, that one machine gets the specific BID/ASK, while the other machine, +/-1 in the order book may not. Mack has suggested this and as to the reason why he like's NinjaTrader's ATM Strategy (Advance Trade Management) solution.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #47 (permalink)
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 106 since Nov 2018
Thanks: 23 given, 63 received

Then there is also the fact that data providers use multiple servers and depending on which one you are connected, and someone else sitting next to you (if in a trading room), or down the hall, across the street, or another part of the world data can vary slightly. S... happens.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #48 (permalink)
Palm Harbor, Florida/USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, SharkIndicat
Broker: Interactive Brokers, NinjaTrader Brokerage, TD Ameritrade
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 45 since Dec 2019
Thanks: 33 given, 36 received


JockTrader View Post
Yes they can look different, it depends when the bars start counting the ticks.

I have seen this first hand. I am using identical 2500 tick charts side by side with the same templates and same data feed. One has a strategy to trade reversal setups using LizardTrader auction bars, and the other trading continuation moves. I have seen that reversal signals will occur on one chart but not the other. The highs occur at the same place, and against the same resistance, but there is just enough difference in the formation of the bars that the price rejection may appear enough in one setup to trigger a reversal signal, but not the other.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #49 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Berlin, Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Keyboard
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,841 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 4,238 given, 26,587 received


Bionan View Post
I have seen this first hand. I am using identical 2500 tick charts side by side with the same templates and same data feed. One has a strategy to trade reversal setups using LizardTrader auction bars, and the other trading continuation moves. I have seen that reversal signals will occur on one chart but not the other. The highs occur at the same place, and against the same resistance, but there is just enough difference in the formation of the bars that the price rejection may appear enough in one setup to trigger a reversal signal, but not the other.

The outcome of signals may also depend on the selected lookback period. Each indicator has a training period during which the indicator values are not yet correct.

For example, if you add a SMA(100) to your chart, you need to wait for 100 bars, before it becomes accurate. For the SMA this is pretty straight forward. However, user of NinjaTrader will observe that the plot starts after 20 bars. The plot remains false for the next 80 bars, and will only show correct results after bar 100.

In case you add an EMA(100) to your chart, you need to wait for about 300 bars. This is because the EMA uses a recursive formula and error propagation takes a longer time to fade away compared to a SMA.

All indicators are stupid. The indicator output only depends on the input data. If you observe different results on two different charts, it means that the input data used on the two charts is different. With regard to the Auction Bars indicatoor there are two possible cases:

-> You used different trading hours templates, such as a ETH, RTH or a 24/7 template for the 2 charts. In this case you will also see that the candles have a different shape.
-> You used the same trading hours templates and observe exactly the same candles, but had selected different lookback periods for the two charts.

The Auction Bars indicator has a comparatively long training period, as it calculates market volatility for different filters from the secondary bars added. In case that one of your charts had a comparitively small lookback period, this may have affected the generation of signals.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Fat Tails for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #50 (permalink)
Palm Harbor, Florida/USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, SharkIndicat
Broker: Interactive Brokers, NinjaTrader Brokerage, TD Ameritrade
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 45 since Dec 2019
Thanks: 33 given, 36 received



Fat Tails View Post
The outcome of signals may also depend on the selected lookback period. Each indicator has a training period during which the indicator values are not yet correct.

For example, if you add a SMA(100) to your chart, you need to wait for 100 bars, before it becomes accurate. For the SMA this is pretty straight forward. However, user of NinjaTrader will observe that the plot starts after 20 bars. The plot remains false for the next 80 bars, and will only show correct results after bar 100.

In case you add an EMA(100) to your chart, you need to wait for about 300 bars. This is because the EMA uses a recursive formula and error propagation takes a longer time to fade away compared to a SMA.

All indicators are stupid. The indicator output only depends on the input data. If you observe different results on two different charts, it means that the input data used on the two charts is different. With regard to the Auction Bars indicatoor there are two possible cases:

-> You used different trading hours templates, such as a ETH, RTH or a 24/7 template for the 2 charts. In this case you will also see that the candles have a different shape.
-> You used the same trading hours templates and observe exactly the same candles, but had selected different lookback periods for the two charts.

The Auction Bars indicator has a comparatively long training period, as it calculates market volatility for different filters from the secondary bars added. In case that one of your charts had a comparitively small lookback period, this may have affected the generation of signals.

Thanks. I believe I created a template for the indicator and used the same template for both charts. I just attributed the difference in signal output to the nature of tick charts. I will double check these settings, because if I get a signal on one chart, I would prefer to get the same signal under the same conditions on a second identical chart. Otherwise, the results of the strategy could vary slightly due to "luck of the draw". Most of the signals seems to match up, however. I'll report what I find, as it may be pertinent to this thread.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Bionan for this post:


futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout > Are all Tick Charts Different?


August 3, 2020


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

Dealing with burnout w/Linda Bradford Raschke

Elite only
     



Copyright © 2020 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts