Don't know if you are aware that one of the members here on Fut. io wrote an indicator to help with Robs Smith theory of Time Confluence,
I do not trade his system, but I will tell Time Confluence is a very interesting gauge of what is happening in a very precise moment...when all 4 time periods agree. There is a level of confidence that comes into play.

So I've spent a lot of time on the time confluence thing, and wrote some of the indicators for it. Over the past 3 weeks or so I maybe had 3 losing days with it? But once again like everything it's not a silver bullet. When you get a reversal and all the domino's start falling down it goes a long ways towards telling you how far things can go. But ultimately it relies on trend and if you don't get that trend it can just slice you up. You need strong runners for it to work out. My back testing and results suggest that you need a lot more than that. In the end it always comes down to generating more edge than your competition. Timeframe continuity is kind of too obvious. So it ends up being something that you should absolutely know and incorporate, but that will probably just get you to break even on its own.

And it's the same thing with order flow. The one advantage order flow might have is that it's a lot harder to generate an algorithm, find historical data, and run a backtest on everything that an order flow trader looks at. There may be less order flow traders than there are other methods right now, but there's still enough. You still have to find something unique that gives you enough of an edge on everyone else to generate excess returns.

Has anyone used Jigsaws Auction Vista to assist in orderflow trading?

Has anyone used Jigsaws Auction Vista to assist in orderflow trading?

Hello guys, I am an aspiring trader and just recently learned about order flow and all these concepts. I was thinking about getting into NoBsDaytrading and learning about DOM scalping then I came across a reddit comment from someone who claims to be a STIR trader and claims that orderflow is the modern day technical analysis.

I will copy paste the comment here:

"I'd put it this way:

The way orderflow is used by retail is completely different than it is used by professionals.

All those concepts like delta, footprints, absorbtion are part of a snake oil sales armada just like the technical analysis hype fuelled the retail software industry 10-20 years ago.

"Orderflow" was more or less taught in prop shops (especially bond and STIR desks) and it worked because markets were much more isolated back then.

When you were able to spot a refreshing bid you could really identify what was going on since it most likely was one guy or one firm executing. Now it's old prop traders who ran out of edge who teach the concepts to the public.

Today all markets are correlated, so a refreshing bid could mean an algo that trades a weighted portfolio of 12 different assets, which is pricing your bid off of 11 other markets. He's refreshing at 20 now until one of his markets ticks down, then he's refreshing at 19.

There is so much cross flow between markets that it is nearly impossible to identify a trading opportunity aka. a price to lean on. Also, the big volume has moved from the lit market back to OTC since they are sick of getting robbed.

No as far as the professional users of flow goes, they are just screening the markets for stale orders to lean on, they have access to OTC venues to get an indication which direction the paper is trading and they monitor changes in correlations.

They also look into microstructure but opposed to the flimsy stuff Jigsaw, ATAS or Bookmap provides, they are modeling the FIFO queue in order to find out weither an order should stay for the 0+ trade or cancel/replaced.

Do they use delta or bids vs offers hit? Yes, some do, but it is just a miniscule part of the trading. More important, they monitor the trading of hundreds or thousands of instruments to get an idea which asset is out of whack. As others already mentioned, the data and creditlines necessary to trade on that level is so expensive that it is just not worth exploring for retail.

If you do not have a specific edge to exploit with your "orderflow" concepts, just don't bother programming an algo around it. Most of it is BS to be honest.


Good Luck"



I would like to hear your opinions about what he said. I dont want to waste my time if what NoBsDaytrading used to work and now doesn't anymore.
I know I sound like a newbie because I am. I am trying to learn about the nature of the markets and how they work but after reading this I became skeptical of everything for some reason

Thanks

Asked my fellow broker, Joe Easton, whom I like his market read what he thinks and he shared the following:

Good job doing your homework and asking the right questions. Part of being a good trader is to think rationally and independently. It is correct to search for information and be skeptical of the answers and test to see if they work in your experience. Every trader will have slightly different opinions and experiences and that is what makes a market.
To me orderflow is an outdated concept. Since it is a fact traders can hide order sizes and cancel bid or asks at anytime already pokes holes in the idea that this information could be helpful. I realize there are some successful traders that use orderflow but in my experience I do not find it helpful. I personally believe in technical analysis because you are using information that is a fact…prices traded. You cannot cancel a position already filled and printed on the chart. Using information that has already happened to me is more useful than using information that may or may not happen.

No -- I didn't say that -- I CLEARLY SAID >>> that SOME OF THOSE TRADERS AT AXIA FUTURES are making money with the DOM.

THEY 100% ARE >>> AND I CLEARLY went into detail of how they do it.

If you can think like them or you like their method then PERFECT... go do that and focus on momentum - not on bids etc... and other bullshit.....

That is what I meant from my post.

I didn't really like it -- but if you use it correctly -- it should work.... That is what I meant. Cheers.

"looking for a stream of contracts to keep coming".... so that would be a flow of orders. To me that sounds a lot like, wait for it order flow
I haven't bought an Axia course but I have watched a number of their YouTube videos and they constantly talk about Bid or Offers holding or refreshing and their videos show a screen full of DOMs. All a DOM shows is the flow of orders traded and the order book ie the two raw components of order flow. How could they not be using order flow if that's what they look at, they haven't just got them up on their screens to look 'Pro' or 'cool' in videos.

Even only watching a few of the free videos I know they are news traders, they trade events, and most of their trades seem to be breakout, momentum trades ie they buy because the market is strong or sell because it is weak. Even trading large size they are not trying to buy the low of the day or sell the high of the day like the general retail trader trying to turn the market round with their one lot. They are taking the path of least resistance and making money (a great deal of it by all accounts). .

I find the fact that you don't recognise any of that as order flow surprising and wonder what you believe order flow actually is. And also wonder why you bought their course in the first place as what you are describing sounds very similar to the snippets one sees in their free videos (though presumably much more comprehensively explained). I assume you would have done some investigation of them beforehand by at least watching those free videos before signing up for the course, yet the contents of the course seems to have been not at all what you were expecting and obviously a disappointment to you. I also wonder how much time and effort you have actually put in yourself to learn from what they teach and really work hard at applying it and improving yourself, before you wrote it off as rubbish.