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Would you share your Holy Grail?

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  #1 (permalink)
 trepidation 
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If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?

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  #2 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Pretty interesting questions, I think.

Some thoughts:


trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world?

Uh, no.

Since your question basically is, does anyone who is selling a Holy Grail actually have one, the answer obviously is also no. Why would they sell it? Duh.


Quoting 
I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

This may be true, and you could say it has to be true, but it depends on what they are offering and teaching. I am perfectly willing to think that someone can be offering something valuable but can make more by selling or "teaching" than by trading. How is that possible? It depends on how Holy the Grail is , obviously.

1. Suppose you could make a few percent above risk-free investment (Treasury bills) a year, with absolute consistency. You should realize that you would be better than almost all the major hedge and investment firms, the famous "big boys" who supposedly control the markets, and those big boys would be happy to see you. But you wouldn't necessarily have the capital to make use of it yourself.

2. Suppose you had some decent trading methods for the smaller retail trader, but not get-rich-overnight methods. You might want to "teach" or sell that too, and you might do better if you did. A lot of sales or seminars might make you more than modest day-trading returns. It also involves a different skill set. A good teacher or a good salesperson probably should be teaching or selling if that's their strength. It still may be a decent method, but a good salesperson might make more selling it.... Sales people can make money selling anything, which doesn't tell you in itself whether it's good or bad.

3. Suppose you had a make-you-rich-now system (well, for one thing, you won't, but never mind), in that case you obviously would not put your time and effort into selling or teaching anything.

So there's a spectrum, and if someone offers too much, they are not genuine. If in between, maybe they are.


Quoting 
These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people.

I've seen that too. Maybe some of them are good, I couldn't say. I think you have to evaluate everything individually.

Also, I can say for a fact that I have gotten value from some people (I'm not going into names) and some trading ideas that others find totally useless, and vice-versa. So there is an "eye of the beholder" question here too.

Does everyone make use of the same thing the same way? Not likely. That's why there are legitimate differences of opinion on some of these.


Quoting 
on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes

I think the market's probably way too big for this to be important. What I mean is, if I had a super-duper system, would it be realistic to think that if I made it public that everyone would jump on my bandwagon and ruin my own returns? I think that, realistically, not many (or any at all) would jump on my little system no matter what the results. But yes, big ideas that do truly become popular (such as any of the many trading/investing crazes that have swept the market ... you know, the dot com bubble and real estate and tulip bulbs) do end up failing, in part because they got so popular that no one was taking the other side so there weren't enough people to sell to without seeing a big loss.

But just in case, if I ever do have a true super-duper Holy Grail, or even something half-way decent, I may talk about it in general terms, but no one is going to see my code. Just in case.

I'm not selling it either, if it's that good.

I hope other people join in. This could be a good discussion. Thanks for posing the question and starting it.

Bob.

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  #3 (permalink)
 DoubleUCapital 
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I use it on my laptop to generate real time calls for buy/sell/close open potions.
If you have a model that generate profits, just scale it.

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Dayvid23
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?


Would love to hear who this was, but I understand not saying it outloud.

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 DavidHP 
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world?

I never have and never will.


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  #6 (permalink)
Dayvid23
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If it truly was the holy grail, would it work if everyone used it? who is going to take the other side of your trades if everyone is going in your direction? on the other hand, the Polio vaccine was given away free, so there is that. It would at least feel good to know that you made a difference in the world, put coin in peoples pockets, and gave it away free.

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 LastDino 
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Would you ever sell holy grail?

No. If it has good ROI, and is living to standard of "holy grail", there is no amount of money from retailer that can make me sell it to him/her.

It would be different story if what I'm getting paid is more than what I can make using my "holy grail" on extended period of time.

I was thought very early in my life and it applies quite well to financial markets and its; "If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't"

This is not to smack talk anyone that sells anything, like course, indicators or books, usually there is lot to learn from them.

Another thing I would like to point out is that even if you did get someones "holy grail", it would probably not work for you. Trading is very very individual practice unless you automate everything.

I've also seen great influx of people from all over the world, especially from IT department that think it is achievable to have "algo" that makes them money passively. I kid you not, most office workers in my country that work in IT department at least have one trading account in family. This is the new dream/thing in the market at the moment.

I dunno how successful they are though, but I do know that they wont be willing to sell whatever they developed even if it was giving 1% more than Fixed Deposit return, unless of course you are willing to pay more than that up front.

And if you are wondering about me having anything remotely like holy grail, I don't. I only have lot of broken relationships though

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  #8 (permalink)
 trepidation 
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I wanted to mull on your response before I responded. I want to add that the "Dream" to the "Holy Grail" is to be able to live off your trading.


bobwest View Post
1. Suppose you could make a few percent above risk-free investment (Treasury bills) a year, with absolute consistency. You should realize that you would be better than almost all the major hedge and investment firms, the famous "big boys"...

2. Suppose you had some decent trading methods for the smaller retail trader, but not get-rich-overnight methods. You might want to "teach" or sell that too, and you might do better if you did. A lot of sales or seminars might make you more than modest day-trading returns....

Regarding hedge funds, you have to consider that their goal isn't to aggressively grow capital, but to protect that capital and to hedge against inflation. Simply buying treasuries means you're at parity with inflation.

The only legit system I've discovered that hits these two nails on the head and can be picked up relatively quickly is basically Writing Options/Selling Premium. There're a number of reputable vendors that sell their services, but when you crunch the numbers they're also selling a fake dream to the retail trader because you generate approximately 15% ROI annually on utilized capital. The use of utilized capital is key because you're only supposed to utilize 50% of your capital in order to defend losing positions. So say you have a 100k account, you're lucky to generate $10k in a year because you're only ever going to actively deploy $50k. They sell the dream of making stable income while feeding off your dream through their subscription fees. So this isn't particularly good for the retail trader. It also isn't good for the large institutions (say over $5 mil) because at some point there becomes liquidity issues and there're only so many opportunities at any given point.


bobwest View Post
[Alpha decay] I think the market's probably way too big for this to be important. What I mean is, if I had a super-duper system, would it be realistic to think that if I made it public that everyone would jump on my bandwagon and ruin my own returns?

This is actually a very big issue in cryptocurrency because there is no centralized exchange. Arbitrage bots fight each other to generate returns. The more people that are arbitraging, the less opportunity there is. It's true that they're making the market more efficient, but the more efficient the market is the less alpha there is. You could say professional pit traders were also arbitragers. The other thing kinda only applies to very volatile and illiquid contracts like nq or crude on micro frames, if there's a strong scalping signal only a few can take advantage of that opportunity. For example, crude inventories release events are now impossible to immediately trade because of the rapid orderflow.

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  #9 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Yeah, when anyone talks about Holy Grails there are a lot of ways to slice the subject up, but basically there isn't any such thing. It's a matter of hope, generally the hope of the unwary, and exploitation of that hope by smart people who don't know anything useful about the markets, but do know a lot about human nature.

We see this here all the time, as hopeful new would-traders (and hopeful long-time traders) fall for the lure of salespeople who are making their living by selling stuff that can be made to look good, but doesn't work.

If you tell the hopeful people that if someone has something that does work, they aren't going to be selling it, and they don't have any incentive to, that idea doesn't always penetrate the barrier of hope that is blocking their ability to perceive the simplest aspects of reality.

People who will laugh at junk emails from Nigerian princes offering wealth if you just send them some money first (I'm not sure this scam is still going on, but most people will remember it) will reach for their credit cards when a slightly more sophisticated pitch is made to them involving trading.

You made some points regarding the efficiency of markets, and the role of arbitrage in erasing exploitable opportunities. I liked what you said about pit traders: "You could say professional pit traders were also arbitragers." When they lost their unique position in the markets that let them have a shot at everyone's orders up front, a lot of pit traders couldn't make it "upstairs" trading from the screens. Their edge was mainly their position in the markets. They could make use of it until computer order-matching erased their role. At least this is true for some.

There's a lot that can be said about the efficiency-producing effect of smart people trying to exploit any possible trading opportunity, but what it comes down to is that trading is going to be hard to succeed at, because the competition is in there trying to do what you are trying to do, and it tends to erase any actual edge anyone has. (Which is another reason it can be more profitable to sell a system than to trade it. )

Bob.

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 Blash 
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?

One man's "Holy Grail System" is another man's "Impossible to Execute System"


Quoting 
The amateur,

If your system is so great, why are you selling it? Why not just trade it and rake it in?

The Master
,

You won't be able to execute it.


Dreams are being sold ALL THE TIME. Every single acting class in California has at least one dreamer (probably many more) ......for example.

Same thing happened to Mark Douglas. He had so many clients paying him for his coaching he didn't/couldn't trade. He finally ended it so he could.

IMHO... Most people don't have the first clue what is needed in trading. They constantly look in the wrong place and for the wrong things.

For example, I take issue with even your premise stated in the first paragraph on its face value.

The 5% that drain accounts know...... I know .......Trading is one of the most complete illusions I have found...... The only better one is religion ...... If you work hard, study and put in tremendous energy you can discover the reality of both...... Takes never ending work to remain clear eyed on these subjects.

Ron

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 trepidation 
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Blash View Post
Ron

With all due respect, your response sounds like a non-answer with the implication that retail trading is a pipe dream. My premise is that a Holy Grail is a something whether it be a system, strategy or methodology that has an actually decent edge beyond chance that works for a retail trader. I'm talking edge and you're talking mentality. Do they go hand in hand? Yes to a degree, but if you have the best mentality in the world and you're trading a system that will fail in a retail account 99.9% of the time, then it's pointless discussing psychology. Last I checked, Mark Douglas's work--I've only dabbled in his introductory stuff--is primarily focused on trading mechanically with a probabilistic outlook and working on fortifying a trader's mentality. As in, once you've defined your edge simply trade it without regard to the outcome. That is very different from, for example, having a system that if traded properly can produce 50% ROI over a year with a minimal chance of exploding.

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 Blash 
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trepidation View Post
With all due respect, your response sounds like a non-answer with the implication that retail trading is a pipe dream. My premise is that a Holy Grail is a something whether it be a system, strategy or methodology that has an actually decent edge beyond chance that works for a retail trader. I'm talking edge and you're talking mentality. Do they go hand in hand? Yes to a degree, but if you have the best mentality in the world and you're trading a system that will fail in a retail account 99.9% of the time, then it's pointless discussing psychology. Last I checked, Mark Douglas's work--I've only dabbled in his introductory stuff--is primarily focused on trading mechanically with a probabilistic outlook and working on fortifying a trader's mentality. As in, once you've defined your edge simply trade it without regard to the outcome. That is very different from, for example, having a system that if traded properly can produce 50% ROI over a year with a minimal chance of exploding.


We are at different points of the traders evolutionary arc.

Retail trading is doable... absolutely. You need an edge (usually more than one), of course...like any business.... But what you need more than your edge are intangibles. Stuff related to life in general, which of course includes trading because it is part of life, if one so chooses.

Patience to wait for the edge to materialize. Perseverance to carry on, staying the course however long it takes. Wisdom/discernment understanding market context related to edge.

Truthfulness with yourself. Is this really your edge or just almost out of time and you need/want trades. If you don't trade today.... Are you a trader? Traders trade, right?

Decisiveness and moderation will net more profits consistently than greed and haste.

Process. Having a process where the intangibles are trained into you will be your Holy Grail.

The edge is the easy part. (Relatively speaking)

Ron





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 snax 
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Blash View Post
We are at different points of the traders evolutionary arc.

Retail trading is doable... absolutely. You need an edge (usually more than one), of course...like any business.... But what you need more than your edge are intangibles. Stuff related to life in general, which of course includes trading because it is part of life, if one so chooses.

Patience to wait for the edge to materialize. Perseverance to carry on, staying the course however long it takes. Wisdom/discernment understanding market context related to edge.

Truthfulness with yourself. Is this really your edge or just almost out of time and you need/want trades. If you don't trade today.... Are you a trader? Traders trade, right?

Decisiveness and moderation will net more profits consistently than greed and haste.

Process. Having a process where the intangibles are trained into you will be your Holy Grail.

The edge is the easy part. (Relatively speaking)

Ron





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Terrific post @Blash, I think many of us are constantly feeling this self-imposed pressure to place winning trades every moment we're in the market and its just becoming more and more apparent to me that at the particular stage I'm at, selectivity, patience, and discipline are proving more beneficial.

I know it will sound like boring rhetoric with no substance to some but it really has made a critical difference in my trading performance. It just doesn't feel like I'm a trader yet because I spend so much time not in any trade. But the results are what they are and I just feel like this has been an important realization and step along the path. Everyone has a different style but for mine I think I just need more time and experience to really "get it" and start building more profits, I know I cannot run before I walk or crawl.

Sorry if I derailed us at all, but I just really liked your post, Blash!

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 trepidation 
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Blash View Post

The edge is the easy part. (Relatively speaking)

futures.io

Haha, we don't see eye to eye here. I admit I take discretionary trades when I shouldn't and that is bad for my expectancy. However, a good edge is the hardest thing in the world to find because you need to find a balance between number of setups, probabilities, and risk to reward. If that weren't the case mechanical systems or algo trading that is emotionless would be completely destroying human traders. They are at best slightly better than a skilled retail trader.

Just as a novice swordsman with a holy blade cannot cut, a master swordsman with no blade cannot cut either.

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 mtzimmer1 
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I’ll throw in my two cents. I’ve developed a few trading models that are likely to outperform the broad market in both absolute and risk-adjusted return. I trade these models and I share them with my family. I would not sell these models because 1) I don’t want to lose my edge and 2) I don’t want to make money from marketing to struggling traders, I want to make money from trading.

Now as far as daytrading goes, I have failed 100’s of times to write an intraday black box algo that is profitable. The only alternative then becomes discretionary trading. When I reach a point of consistent profitability I will certainly share my methodology for free because I think it is less likely for a discretionary trader to lose their edge due to ‘overcrowding.’

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 rlstreet 
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mtzimmer1 View Post
I’ll throw in my two cents. I’ve developed a few trading models that are likely to outperform the broad market in both absolute and risk-adjusted return. I trade these models and I share them with my family. I would not sell these models because 1) I don’t want to lose my edge and 2) I don’t want to make money from marketing to struggling traders, I want to make money from trading.

Now as far as daytrading goes, I have failed 100’s of times to write an intraday black box algo that is profitable. The only alternative then becomes discretionary trading. When I reach a point of consistent profitability I will certainly share my methodology for free because I think it is less likely for a discretionary trader to lose their edge due to ‘overcrowding.’

-Zimmer

The idea that trading edges are always a big secret never to be disclosed is imo not the reality. Professional traders are just ok to share basic idea's about edges. Lot of them are exploiting known edges like selling insurance, taking on risk others don't like. There is no Holy Grail in the market, the market is too efficient, every edge comes with it own risk profile. A trading operation is to trade and combine multiple of those edges to shape your equity curve that fits your risk profile.

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 mtzimmer1 
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I agree that there is no holy grail. But the combination of edges I currently trade is likely as close as I’ll ever get. I don’t want to incur any additional risk of degrading performance by sharing these models. One of my favorite quantitative traders, Oddmund Grotte, shared many ideas on his blog but did not share his most profitable edges while he was exploiting them. He is far more intelligent than I and if he was concerned with losing his edge due to “overcrowding” then I think I should be cautious as well. I am exploiting ‘unknown’ edges that, as far as I can tell, no one is posting about online. I’m not selling premium I am timing the market and allocating to asset classes using stats-based market-timing models.

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 bobwest 
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rlstreet View Post
The idea that trading edges are always a big secret never to be disclosed is imo not the reality. Professional traders are just ok to share basic idea's about edges. Lot of them are exploiting known edges like selling insurance, taking on risk others don't like. There is no Holy Grail in the market, the market is too efficient, every edge comes with it own risk profile. A trading operation is to trade and combine multiple of those edges to shape your equity curve that fits your risk profile.

I think this is probably correct, as a description of how the professionals generally operate. (Actually, not being one, I can't be sure of this, but it is consistent with what I have gathered, anyway. )

We run into the most odd and fanciful ideas about how professionals trade, and in particular, about how trading algos trade. While some of these ideas probably are sometimes right, I think that for the most part, the big professional operations exploit edges that are well-known, just not usually available -- for instance, high frequency trading firms utilize very high speed operations and hardware -- where things like, "How long does it take light to traverse this distance" are a factor -- to take advantage of very small, temporary market opportunities.

We have at least one high frequency trader here (I won't drag him in by tagging him) who, I would judge from some of this posts now and then, would smile at our assumptions about what his firm and its competitors do.

An example from the old days would be the pit traders, back when all trades got matched up manually by guys hollering out their bids and offers and making odd hand gestures, or whatever they did.

These guys simply had an obvious edge due to their unique position in the market. Since everything had to go through them or one of the others on the floor, they had a simple way to get in front of outside orders. When the pits died, a lot of them didn't make the transition to "screen trading," where they didn't have any built-in advantage.

By the way, I do think it is possible to have an edge and to exploit it, and I have seen this play out in many different ways in trading journals here for a long, long time. It just isn't going to be all that easy, for the simple reason that your competition is out there trying to do the same, and you just may not be better at it.... Of course, you might, but it's not that likely. I don't think it's a mystery why, as we are often told, most traders fail. (The numbers are often given in the 90% range, although I imagine they are just being repeated without much actual data. But I also think they are very high, possibly higher.)

The reality is always that competition makes success in any market difficult.

Bob.

------------------

Edit: with all that said, the high frequency firms have very talented math guys working up market models to give them a way to find the opportunities they seek, and they aren't making any of that known.

Must be a reason.

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 rlstreet 
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mtzimmer1 View Post
I agree that there is no holy grail. But the combination of edges I currently trade is likely as close as I’ll ever get. I don’t want to incur any additional risk of degrading performance by sharing these models. One of my favorite quantitative traders, Oddmund Grotte, shared many ideas on his blog but did not share his most profitable edges while he was exploiting them. He is far more intelligent than I and if he was concerned with losing his edge due to “overcrowding” then I think I should be cautious as well. I am exploiting ‘unknown’ edges that, as far as I can tell, no one is posting about online. I’m not selling premium I am timing the market and allocating to asset classes using stats-based market-timing models.

Yep it is logical to hide very special alpha to the public But let's be honest and not kidding ourselves that we have this kind of alpha. Most capitilized companies are searching for this. Most alpha we trade as retailers, is known stuff, maybe traded in a little different way. And some are successful in harvesting this alpha other for many reasons not

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 bobwest 
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mtzimmer1 View Post
I’ll throw in my two cents. I’ve developed a few trading models that are likely to outperform the broad market in both absolute and risk-adjusted return. I trade these models and I share them with my family. I would not sell these models because 1) I don’t want to lose my edge and 2) I don’t want to make money from marketing to struggling traders, I want to make money from trading.

Now as far as daytrading goes, I have failed 100’s of times to write an intraday black box algo that is profitable. The only alternative then becomes discretionary trading. When I reach a point of consistent profitability I will certainly share my methodology for free because I think it is less likely for a discretionary trader to lose their edge due to ‘overcrowding.’

-Zimmer


mtzimmer1 View Post
I agree that there is no holy grail. But the combination of edges I currently trade is likely as close as I’ll ever get. I don’t want to incur any additional risk of degrading performance by sharing these models. One of my favorite quantitative traders, Oddmund Grotte, shared many ideas on his blog but did not share his most profitable edges while he was exploiting them. He is far more intelligent than I and if he was concerned with losing his edge due to “overcrowding” then I think I should be cautious as well. I am exploiting ‘unknown’ edges that, as far as I can tell, no one is posting about online. I’m not selling premium I am timing the market and allocating to asset classes using stats-based market-timing models.

I think these are very important points, along with the post by @rlstreet above.

I don't think that the high-speed algo traders, for instance, are necessarily trading like we do (and they aren't), but I also think that they have things that they keep close to the vest, and they want to keep it that way.

There's also the simple factor of how reproducible an "edge" is.

For instance, if I had a good automated strategy, there is no way on earth that I would share the code, or even give a very detailed description of it. Why? Well, because if they had the code or something that would make writing it fairly easy, any one in the world could be in there at the same time as I was, making the same trade that I was. Even if it didn't affect my returns -- and, given the staggeringly huge size of the markets, it probably would not, unless it became very popular -- I just wouldn't want to hand out a free lunch after it had taken me time and effort and risk and loss to get it. I am not generally inclined to be selfish, but in this case my attitude is simply, "Find your own, bub."



Now, as to purely discretionary trading, the way that different traders will implement, or try to implement, a strategy, and the extent to which various individual psychological and other judgmental factors will come into play, makes it pretty well impossible for anyone else to be making the same trades at the same time. For that matter, anyone is going to make their own changes to the method anyway as they apply it, even if not entirely consciously, and I think that there is not a real danger of free-riding. You have to work to master discretionary trading.

So I would be more open there, and even want to be helpful. The situations are dissimilar enough to make the appropriate response different also.

Bob.

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 mtzimmer1 
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bobwest View Post
I think these are very important points, along with the post by @rlstreet above.



I don't think that the high-speed algo traders, for instance, are necessarily trading like we do (and they aren't), but I also think that they have things that they keep close to the vest, and they want to keep it that way.



There's also the simple factor of how reproducible an "edge" is.



For instance, if I had a good automated strategy, there is no way on earth that I would share the code, or even give a very detailed description of it. Why? Well, because if they had the code or something that would make writing it fairly easy, any one in the world could be in there at the same time as I was, making the same trade that I was. Even if it didn't affect my returns -- and, given the staggeringly huge size of the markets, it probably would not, unless it became very popular -- I just wouldn't want to hand out a free lunch after it had taken me time and effort and risk and loss to get it. I am not generally inclined to be selfish, but in this case my attitude is simply, "Find you own, bub."







Now, as to purely discretionary trading, the way that different traders will implement, or try to implement, a strategy, and the extent to which various individual psychological and other judgmental factors will come into play, makes it pretty well impossible for anyone else to be making the same trades at the same time. For that matter, anyone is going to make their own changes to the method anyway as they apply it, even if not entirely consciously, and I think that there is not a real danger of free-riding. You have to work to master discretionary trading.



So I would be more open there, and even want to be helpful. The situations are dissimilar enough to make the appropriate response different also.



Bob.



This is exactly what I was trying to say, just written more coherently.

I don’t want to give away my hard work for free, and I also don’t want to sell it because capitalizing on others hopes and dreams leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

-Zimmer

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  #22 (permalink)
 geott 
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In our imagination, someone revealing something close to HG or however giving an edge to his audience.
If viral , a model (if not) becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy but at least something with noticeable effects on the sidelines could give an "extra-edge", at a certain point, to the good samaritan by anticipation...but could ,in the long run, much of the early momentum beginning to dissipate ?

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 LastDino 
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What a nice read that last page was, thanks!

I now have one hypothetical situation though, I would like peoples opinion if they are willing here.

Trader A thinks of 100's of ideas and tests them to pin down some sort of edge, it can be one or combination of many, but he is still to convert it into consistent performing machine. Main reason is that he is the one developing it but lacks confidence in himself/his edge. He has been in Market for years and worked hard for it, he may feel "its not that easy".

Then newbie B comes along and for one reason or other (Be it money/personal favors etc), he learns "bit of that edge" from trader A, but trader B has so much confidence in trader A's ability that even that "bit" he is able to trade with full confidence, and surprise surprise, he makes money more often than not, at least more than trader A for period of time.

Trader A sees this success and starts doubting himself more, at least starts believing he doesn't have psychological makeup for being a trader as clearly his bits and pieces system is working for others. But in reality he was only being little careful as he was sure of randomness of the market and his edge was not yet full proof.

So now he has done damage to himself both psychologically as well as lost some of his edge to someone else. Now, does he recover and continue to be trader? Or become trainer? Or start developing new edge as he has lost his current advantage which he himself didn't trade and needs to find new one?

Relevance here is that while B thinks he has gotten his hands on holy grail, or at least in some form or shape a working method, was this transaction a "giving/teaching someone holy grail" or in reality "Holy grail" part of the process was always "you", or in this case "trader B"?

/me and my crazy talks

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  #24 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Don't forget that with HFT they spend extra for microseconds and if lucky add up to a couple milliseconds advantage buying FPGA chips with custom HFT friendly enhancements, microwave instead of fiber so it's direct line of sight saving a few turns, and then there is or course the obligatory colocation at CME, staff of amazing math guys, and with the best firms there will be teams writing custom code for their own execution.

That is not a game someone without deep pockets can play.

Retail has much better odds going as far away from scalping as possible. The more distance from scalping to swing trading the better the odds in my opinion, often resulting in far better R returns. But retail doesn't like a big stop, they've been brainwashed into thinking a few ticks is enough...

In my opinion of course...
bobwest View Post
I think this is probably correct, as a description of how the professionals generally operate. (Actually, not being one, I can't be sure of this, but it is consistent with what I have gathered, anyway. )

We run into the most odd and fanciful ideas about how professionals trade, and in particular, about how trading algos trade. While some of these ideas probably are sometimes right, I think that for the most part, the big professional operations exploit edges that are well-known, just not usually available -- for instance, high frequency trading firms utilize very high speed operations and hardware -- where things like, "How long does it take light to traverse this distance" are a factor -- to take advantage of very small, temporary market opportunities.

We have at least one high frequency trader here (I won't drag him in by tagging him) who, I would judge from some of this posts now and then, would smile at our assumptions about what his firm and its competitors do.

An example from the old days would be the pit traders, back when all trades got matched up manually by guys hollering out their bids and offers and making odd hand gestures, or whatever they did.

These guys simply had an obvious edge due to their unique position in the market. Since everything had to go through them or one of the others on the floor, they had a simple way to get in front of outside orders. When the pits died, a lot of them didn't make the transition to "screen trading," where they didn't have any built-in advantage.

By the way, I do think it is possible to have an edge and to exploit it, and I have seen this play out in many different ways in trading journals here for a long, long time. It just isn't going to be all that easy, for the simple reason that your competition is out there trying to do the same, and you just may not be better at it.... Of course, you might, but it's not that likely. I don't think it's a mystery why, as we are often told, most traders fail. (The numbers are often given in the 90% range, although I imagine they are just being repeated without much actual data. But I also think they are very high, possibly higher.)

The reality is always that competition makes success in any market difficult.

Bob.

------------------

Edit: with all that said, the high frequency firms have very talented math guys working up market models to give them a way to find the opportunities they seek, and they aren't making any of that known.

Must be a reason.

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  #25 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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BTW, I'm pretty certain even if @artemiso came in and laid out bullet points on how they accomplish their edge, there is a near zero chance it could be put into action without the personnel he has assembled.

Simply knowing the "holy grail" isn't enough. Look at TT's new algo spread trader, anyone can program any market they wish and try to make a market and profit from arbs. But it won't be enough by itself to make you profitable, even though those who do this "for real" are profitable. Many pieces to the puzzle beyond simple knowledge.
Big Mike View Post
Don't forget that with HFT they spend extra for microseconds and if lucky add up to a couple milliseconds advantage buying FPGA chips with custom HFT friendly enhancements, microwave instead of fiber so it's direct line of sight saving a few turns, and then there is or course the obligatory colocation at CME, staff of amazing math guys, and with the best firms there will be teams writing custom code for their own execution.

That is not a game someone without deep pockets can play.

Retail has much better odds going as far away from scalping as possible. The more distance from scalping to swing trading the better the odds in my opinion, often resulting in far better R returns. But retail doesn't like a big stop, they've been brainwashed into thinking a few ticks is enough...

In my opinion of course...

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  #26 (permalink)
 rlstreet 
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If there is a Holy Grail for us retailers it probably is a system that doesn't trade too much, stays longer in trades, doesn't use too much leverage, does as many small diversivied bets on many different assets as possible, all having some economic rationale and some positive expectancy

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 a1imran 
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risk management is holy grail

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 Skyfly1715 
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?

I have, and I have. For me it's concentrating on one thing. One setup. And that's it.

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 RickW00716 
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This is what I've always understood to be the "Holy Grail" in trading. (which I don't believe exists). A system that gives exact entries and exits in every market and every time frame and is never wrong.

In my opinion, the realistic "Holy Grail" would pertain more to money management and having a consistent "setup" or "edge" that is profitable over time and having the mental fortitude to be able to consistently execute your entries and exits.

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waylon
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I am not sure it is the Holy Grail, but the old adage that 95% of retail traders lose 90% of their account in six months does provide some clues.

As mentioned in a previous post money management is the priority - new traders in my opinion should not use margin.

Taking the opposite side of the retail traders position can also help, Timing your entry and exits, plus improving your anticipated profits by relating them to the ATR is also a positive.

Volume and Momentum plus session timing is the closest I have found to my Holy Grail.

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  #31 (permalink)
Artfldgr
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the guru told you what was the holy grail...
work..
for him it was teaching people what they wanted to learn

money is made by making OTHER people happy
the more happy you give them, the more they pay
it doesn't matter if the thing that makes them happy is real or not
your giving them what they want..

the socialists do NOT get this..
they look and would say that he he is cheating them
is he? no. he is making them happy providing to them what they want

A actor makes millions...
because they are able to make millions happy for a couple of hours

we are not paid in proportion to some arbitrary moral scale
we are paid in proportion to how others have need and how we can fulfill that need

i am unemployed..
sadly, right now, i can make no one happy

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  #32 (permalink)
 Fibbee 
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I wont even share systems with you that have a slight edge.

No hard feelings... its just business.

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  #33 (permalink)
ReaM
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yes, for $250k and nda signed.

It makes no sense to share it for free. Because like in poker when there's a bad player at the table his money is divided up between players who can play good poker, so this money is limited. (I've played professional poker for 7 years).

The same happens in markets, good trades are limited in volume and this money has to be divided up by those who know how to trade and on the opposite side of the trade you have people who don't know how to trade.

Like I said $250k and you're profitable a 100% and you will make this money back after a year or two. What I do has worked in the last 40+ years

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 Aurac 
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?

Response
On the one hand we have Renaissance Technologies who have demonstrated that in order to maintain your edge you CANNOT SHARE your trading strategies.
On the other hand we have LTCM whose strategies got copied leading to their eventual downfall.
So clearly the answer is that Holy Grail systems cannot be shared or sold, etc.
But on the other hand there are lots of systems that can be used to generate profits that are not quite Holy Grail but are good enough.
So when we are discussing gurus who teach trading, it's these kind of systems that we are alluding to.
These systems require a combination of the trading strategy, the market environment and the psychology of the trader as in the Turtle system.
The problem then becomes differentiating between gurus with positive expected value systems that fit you.
If you find one of these then you have found YOUR HOLY GRAIL which is great because then someone else can also trade the system but if it doesn't fit then they won't make money. It also means that you could trade the system better than the guru teaching it because your trading performance is on partially dependent on the system itself.
TH...th...that's all folks
A

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  #35 (permalink)
 fryguy2 
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This guy seems to think he has the holy grail. The bars look like Line Break Bars with wicks.


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SunTrader
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The guru is within us all.

Find what works. Or not. Period.

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 Aurac 
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SunTrader View Post
The guru is within us all.

Find what works. Or not. Period.

Sometimes you need a Guru to find the guru

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fistno
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I am profitable everyweek on spot forex. Min 5% roi, max 250% roi. Doing both scalping and swing trade.

For the question asked in the first post by OP, you got my answer now, for you to interpret. 😊

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 trepidation 
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fryguy2 View Post
This guy seems to think he has the holy grail. The bars look like Line Break Bars with wicks.





That guy is being disingenuous and is trading in hindsight. He’s essentially using a variation of Renko, which is incredibly difficult to trade on NQ because of the fast price action. His first entry would’ve been a stop out and his second entry would’ve likely been missed because.... you had anywhere from less than a 1 second to under a minute to take that trade and would likely get slippage. Look at the timescale on the bottom. Every system looks like a holy grail in hindsight when you can see the result and don’t have to factor in time for analysis. Hence why he’s not flexing about making $10k, but trying to sell you the potential of $10k.

The only thing legit about that video is his use of the higher timeframe Renko variation because he’s identifying the major swing high or low and then taking trend trades off that using a simplified fib restatement. The entry chart is pure BS.

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SunTrader
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Aurac View Post
Sometimes you need a Guru to find the guru

Disagree completely.

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 trepidation 
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Aurac View Post
LtCM



I think that becomes a challenge if your system is too good. If you have a 50:50 win rate with a 1.1 expected ROI, nobody cares. If you have an 80% win rate with a 3.0ROI, suddenly everyone cares and the smaller the frame the less liquidity and that means you can be front run or your opportunity stolen. Has anyone found such a system and shared it? Not to my knowledge. Most systems I see are just existing indicators that they rebrand, a variation of other systems that might have a unique indicator but follows the same methodology, or are highly discretionary and incredibly difficult to replicate and be consistent with. Sooo... it’s an interesting discussion.

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 gdstuart 
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Be glad to post my Holy Grail.

Here's my simple advice: Examine your strengths and weaknesses and learn to fold 'em if your personality doesn't fit the overall investment strategy you're trying to develop.

In my case, I retired in 2014, fully intending to replace my ~$150K salary with futures trading revenues. After studying the markets and various trading methodologies, setting up my home computer as a trading workstation, licensing Ninja Trader and other appropriate tools, joining futures.io (which was invaluable!) and paper-trading in a pretty disciplined manner, I came to realize that my personality was not suited to this craft. After four years of dedicated effort, I have "folded my tent" and now am concentrating on safer investments to continue to build my and my wife's IRA's. Fortunately I had not liquidated any significant amount of our investments, so we've continued to benefit from the recent bull market. It was a big decision but I'm glad to have learned so much, at minimal cost, and my wife is in agreement with my decision.

Six months ago I took a job as Operations Manager with a non-profit at about 20% of my pre-retirement salary, and every day I see how much I am contributing to the well-being of my organization, helping them to deliver in-home mental health services to low-income youths in southern New Jersey.

This may not have been the post you were looking for, but I think it may be advice worth remembering as you pursue this craft. Best of luck to you!

Geoff

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 trepidation 
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SunTrader View Post
Disagree completely.



I think a guru/mentor isn’t necessary, but a good one can can help because they give you a frame to analyze the market. It’s not the holy grail, but a starting point into the cold embrace of the markets. That’s also why I never trust a sim trader because they don’t have the same feelings as a live trader. Hindsight traders or gurus that don’t trade are also sim traders. They’re akin to the talking heads in the news that report what happened and talk from both sides of their mouth. What does drawdown mean to a sim trader? There’s so much information and opinion out there and it can be right or wrong. That’s irrelevant. If you have the wrong understanding, but it consistently makes money... so what? At the end of the day money never lies and if your PnL is consistently growing with a positive expectancy then nothing else matters where you have or don’t have a guru.

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 Aurac 
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trepidation View Post
I think that becomes a challenge if your system is too good. If you have a 50:50 win rate with a 1.1 expected ROI, nobody cares. If you have an 80% win rate with a 3.0ROI, suddenly everyone cares and the smaller the frame the less liquidity and that means you can be front run or your opportunity stolen. Has anyone found such a system and shared it? Not to my knowledge. Most systems I see are just existing indicators that they rebrand, a variation of other systems that might have a unique indicator but follows the same methodology, or are highly discretionary and incredibly difficult to replicate and be consistent with. Sooo... it’s an interesting discussion.

I am afraid I disagree with your description of trading systems. As I said in the earlier part of my post, firms like Renaissance Technologies have discovered such systems and run a very tight ship and keep it very secretive. Even to the point that they sue employees who leave to go and work for competitors(Millennium). They also let employees who leave, keep their investments in the fund so that they don't share the information with competitors.
I don't think you have had a comprehensive review of systems if you think that
"Most systems I see are just existing indicators that they rebrand, etc"
I have come across systems that are much more sophisticated than that but require significant investment in education and time to use properly. Most people think trading systems are like learning to use Google. But in fact they are more like learning to play tennis. The racquet might be the same but whether you succeed depends on your ability to use the racquet and the opponent you are playing.

I do agree with you that it's an interesting discussion

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 trepidation 
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I am afraid I disagree with your description of trading systems. As I said in the earlier part of my post, firms like Renaissance Technologies have discovered such systems and run a very tight ship and keep it very secretive. Even to the point that they sue employees who leave to go and work for competitors(Millennium). They also let employees who leave, keep their investments in the fund so that they don't share the information with competitors.

I don't think you have had a comprehensive review of systems if you think that

"Most systems I see are just existing indicators that they rebrand, etc"

I have come across systems that are much more sophisticated than that but require significant investment in education and time to use properly. Most people think trading systems are like learning to use Google. But in fact they are more like learning to play tennis. The racquet might be the same but whether you succeed depends on your ability to use the racquet and the opponent you are playing.



I do agree with you that it's an interesting discussion



I should’ve added "retail" in front. I'll need to look up RT systems, but seeing as they're so secretive I'll probably yield nothing.

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 Aurac 
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SunTrader View Post
Disagree completely.

That's like saying there's no point in going to medical school to learn to be a surgeon or engineering school to learn to be an engineer.
If you want to learn to be a doctor on you own it's possible but if you go to medical school it will be faster and then after that you can add your own 2 cents to medical knowledge by innovating.
Even a well documented profession like medicine has it's own share of charlatans never mind trading where all you need is enough money to open a brokerage account as your qualification.

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 Aurac 
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gdstuart View Post
Be glad to post my Holy Grail.

Here's my simple advice: Examine your strengths and weaknesses and learn to fold 'em if your personality doesn't fit the overall investment strategy you're trying to develop.

In my case, I retired in 2014, fully intending to replace my ~$150K salary with futures trading revenues. After studying the markets and various trading methodologies, setting up my home computer as a trading workstation, licensing Ninja Trader and other appropriate tools, joining futures.io (which was invaluable!) and paper-trading in a pretty disciplined manner, I came to realize that my personality was not suited to this craft. After four years of dedicated effort, I have "folded my tent" and now am concentrating on safer investments to continue to build my and my wife's IRA's. Fortunately I had not liquidated any significant amount of our investments, so we've continued to benefit from the recent bull market. It was a big decision but I'm glad to have learned so much, at minimal cost, and my wife is in agreement with my decision.

Six months ago I took a job as Operations Manager with a non-profit at about 20% of my pre-retirement salary, and every day I see how much I am contributing to the well-being of my organization, helping them to deliver in-home mental health services to low-income youths in southern New Jersey.

This may not have been the post you were looking for, but I think it may be advice worth remembering as you pursue this craft. Best of luck to you!

Geoff

The full implication of this post is so stupendous that I had no option but to thank you for posting this reply. Unfortunately most persons will read what you have said and moved on without letting it sink in.
Thank you for such a deep and enlightening response.

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 Aurac 
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trepidation View Post
I should’ve added "retail" in front. I'll need to look up RT systems, but seeing as they're so secretive I'll probably yield nothing.

hahaha.....that's right but it's not as bleak as it seems.
With the right paradigm it's possible to come up with suitable systems and with the right amount of perseverance and application you will discover systems that suit you.
Being good at trading is no different than being good at anything else.

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SunTrader
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Aurac View Post
That's like saying there's no point in going to medical school to learn to be a surgeon or engineering school to learn to be an engineer.
If you want to learn to be a doctor on you own it's possible but if you go to medical school it will be faster and then after that you can add your own 2 cents to medical knowledge by innovating.
Even a well documented profession like medicine has it's own share of charlatans never mind trading where all you need is enough money to open a brokerage account as your qualification.

If you want to become a doctor you, of course, learn from other doctors. Not gurus.

If you want to become a great doctor that comes from within

IMO. Agree or not I've said my piece.

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 joe s 
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Trader's will never give up the quest for the Holy Grail

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 trepidation 
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joe s View Post
Trader's will never give up the quest for the Holy Grail

That's how traders are always going to be adapting to market conditions. It's the complacent ones that get steamrolled. Also, if I was making a million a year, I think I'd drastically stop exploring trading and focus more on enjoying life.

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 Fxfutures1976 
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?


Im not sure on the phrase 'Holy Grail ' But I know for a fact that I would not disclose my methods that have taken me 10 years of blood sweat and tears to anyone.
I also wouldn't sell any ideas in fear of that person profiting from my hard work.

Anyone that promises you can ''learn to Trade their holy grail'' for a fee is nothing but a fraud.
There are so many scammers out there saying trading is easy to learn it make my blood boil.

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 joe s 
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I would lease my system to a limited amount of people not sure what that number would be but if I
could get 10 or 20k a month extra why not. Most of us could make money. The key to financial freedom is
multiple streams of income then when I am not trading I can still be making money along with other income
streams

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 EB47 
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I just found this question pop up on my e-mail and took a peek at some of the responses.
I've been working on educating myself to learn how to trade, making a consistent profit, for over 20 years.
The most important thing I found over the years was answering the question "What is the Grail?"
The best thing that we fellow traders can talk about is to focus in on what a Daily, Weekly and Monthly Consistent Profit should be.
When you can answer this, then you have completed the first step to identifying what the Grail really is ....
Everything else is BS.

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 justtrader 
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mtzimmer1 View Post
I’ll throw in my two cents. I’ve developed a few trading models that are likely to outperform the broad market in both absolute and risk-adjusted return. I trade these models and I share them with my family. I would not sell these models because 1) I don’t want to lose my edge and 2) I don’t want to make money from marketing to struggling traders, I want to make money from trading.

Now as far as daytrading goes, I have failed 100’s of times to write an intraday black box algo that is profitable. The only alternative then becomes discretionary trading. When I reach a point of consistent profitability I will certainly share my methodology for free because I think it is less likely for a discretionary trader to lose their edge due to ‘overcrowding.’

-Zimmer

@mtzimmer1 - Thats the good spirit, willing to share. Keep it up.

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 artemiso 
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@Big Mike @bobwest Thanks for the mentions.

There's definitely no holy grail.

Even having architected everything end-to-end, and having every line of code in my possession, I don't think it's possible. There's just so many moving pieces. Even well-oiled, simple and highly mechanical arbitrage strategies that trade 10+% ADV require constant human intervention and fine tuning of risk parameters, and break all the time.

Others have brought up good points about the unreplicable nature of technology and personnel that I'll not rehash. There's others that go behind a successful strategy that are boringly unreplicable: A firm with a >1B quant portfolio will often push billions in volume to test simple hypotheses for improving their execution algorithm. Even a small firm like mine runs A/B tests in the live market that would turnover a few % of the entire market's volume to experiment with strategy changes. It's costly but sometimes you get lucky because you've built up a good buffer of PnL and can afford these experiments. Some firms send people to nonprofit organizations in Asia that run surveys, whose researchers need to be convinced to take your $100k check for their data. I've also run very undifferentiated strategies that just had 30+ small little improvements that took them past the profitability hurdle.

If I could time travel and give my younger self advice in 8 words, the holy grail would be "There's no free lunch," - in blood - for extra emphasis, because I was already warned going into this line of work. The other 3 words would be, "Don't hire X". An indirect consequence of the no-free-lunch theorem is that almost everything is a risk premium, not an alpha, it's just not always obvious what latent risk you're taking on. I feel everyone needs to know this before working on a strategy. Naive examples: You can collect a very long string of profitable trades selling options OTM. There's also a wide class of "carry trades" with seemingly consistent profitability where you are giving up risk-free rate, some operational risk, or more, to hold some inventory to maturity.

Trading is very similar to chess. On average, every generation gets a little better than the last because it accumulates the tools and learnings of the previous generation. There's a couple of dominant players at the top of each style of chess (rapid, blitz, classical, bullet), and the top 3 win nearly all the time despite being separated a thin +3.5% from the rest of the field. From time to time, companies fall off their peak - Getco, ATD, Chopper, RGM Advisors, to name a few, were all incredibly dominant in their heydays. There's other firms to take their place as they deteriorate.

There's no secret sauce to it. Lots of research; plenty of practice; immaculate preparation; learning from mistakes; concentrating on several openings that you are good at. And some good luck on match days.

Like chess, it's difficult to sustain the business because of eventual mental decline - in this case, the reward function is heavily skewed to the 1 or 2 founders who eventually lose interest in running the business. Very few do carve a sustainable succession plan. If you were to ask me to name the most important deciding factor (or "holy grail"), it's just a sustainable succession plan.

One guy who built a great succession plan goes by the name of David Shaw, and he's quoted for saying "I find edges where it's expensive." That's a good holy grail to go by. I personally think it's best to find edges where it's very boring.

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 Aurac 
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SunTrader View Post
If you want to become a doctor you, of course, learn from other doctors. Not gurus.

If you want to become a great doctor that comes from within

IMO. Agree or not I've said my piece.


Ah ah...I think I understand. When I say guru, I mean mentors, advisers, shoulders of giants.
e.g. I consider Jack Schwager(Market Wizards) a guru but he will be the first to tell you that he's not a trader.
But you can learn a lot by reading his books and understanding his philosophy of trading.
I do agree with you that over time as you develop your own philosophy you will have less and less need to adopt someone else's philosophy but of course you should always be open to improvements.

Whether I agree or disagree I am always interested in other people's opinion and why.
Your path you must decide

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 bobwest 
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This will probably not be read by the ones who most need it, so let me just repeat it here.


artemiso View Post
@Big Mike @bobwest Thanks for the mentions.

There's definitely no holy grail.

...

An indirect consequence of the no-free-lunch theorem is that almost everything is a risk premium, not an alpha, it's just not always obvious what latent risk you're taking on. I feel everyone needs to know this before working on a strategy.

Folks, read this post in full and think on its meaning. If you're not sure about the lingo, "alpha" refers to doing better than a market bechmark. It could be called having an "edge."

If you're not sure who this is, he's the guy who's beating you.

Bob.

--------------------

Edit: for context, refer to these posts:




When one door closes, another opens.
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 Aurac 
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bobwest View Post
This will probably not be read by the ones who most need it, so let me just repeat it here.



Folks, read this post in full and think on its meaning. If you're not sure about the lingo, "alpha" refers to doing better than a market bechmark. It could be called having an "edge."

If you're not sure who this is, he's the guy who's beating you.

Bob.

--------------------

Edit: for context, refer to these posts:




I don't think the issue is in the reading. There are different kinds of learnings. Intellectual learnings and experiential learnings. The advise you are giving can only be learned experientially.
Therein lies the rub.
Edward O Thorpe said in his biography (A man for all markets) that when he was a kid his mother repeatedly warned him about touching a hot stove. He thought he knew what it meant to touch a hot stove but it was only after he experienced it that he understood what it meant

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 Schnook 
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Aurac View Post
I don't think the issue is in the reading. There are different kinds of learnings. Intellectual learnings and experiential learnings. The advise you are giving can only be learned experientially.
Therein lies the rub.
Edward O Thorpe said in his biography (A man for all markets) that when he was a kid his mother repeatedly warned him about touching a hot stove. He thought he knew what it meant to touch a hot stove but it was only after he experienced it that he understood what it meant

"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." Chinese proverb (often attributed to Confucious)

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 RoqRif 
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I would share my system with anyone, you just have to ask. I would hesitate to put it out there, because it does work for me, but I would not want to endure the criticism.

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 schroedray 
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RoqRif View Post
I would share my system with anyone, you just have to ask. I would hesitate to put it out there, because it does work for me, but I would not want to endure the criticism.

I'm always willing to try other peoples methods. I wouldn't worry about the criticism, we’ve all known people who criticize everybody we try to stay away from them Because they usually have nothing of value to offer.

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 joe s 
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RoqRif Post some picks of your chart that would be interesting to see what
works for you

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 bobwest 
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RoqRif View Post
I would share my system with anyone, you just have to ask. I would hesitate to put it out there, because it does work for me, but I would not want to endure the criticism.


joe s View Post
RoqRif Post some picks of your chart that would be interesting to see what
works for you

There would be no problem for there to be a general discussion on this, and no problem if people got into it, up to a point.

But let's keep the thread reasonably on-topic. As soon as charts and trades get posted and people start to get interested, suddenly that's where the attention will go -- quite naturally, since we're all traders -- and then we would be off to the races and the thread would be headed for derailment.

Remember that the topic is whether you would share your Holy Grail if you had one. Sharing the principles, if someone wants to do it, is terrific, but if we are going to go into details -- charts, trades and so on -- then that should go to another thread.

Let's stay with this topic in this thread.

Thanks.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
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  #65 (permalink)
 RoqRif 
Everett, WA
 
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RoqRif View Post
I would share my system with anyone, you just have to ask. I would hesitate to put it out there, because it does work for me, but I would not want to endure the criticism.

I would be willing to post some pics of my chart, but I don't think this is the correct thread. Honestly, I don't come to this forum that often. I work a full time job and email is easier for me. I' guessing Bob will let me know where to post

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  #66 (permalink)
 bobwest 
Site Moderator
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RoqRif View Post
I would be willing to post some pics of my chart, but I don't think this is the correct thread. Honestly, I don't come to this forum that often. I work a full time job and email is easier for me. I' guessing Bob will let me know where to post

Sure, you could start one for your own posts. If you're not sure where, it might be in the trading journals section, for example. Or, if you don't plan to do a whole trade journal, you could just use the "Traders Hideout" subforum, which is kind of a general-purpose location. And you have other choices available if you wish.

It's really your choice. I was only concerned with keeping this thread on track. Feel free to start a new one, if you like, and add your own content.

For a general thread devoted just to your topic, you could start here (puts your new thread in Traders Hideout): https://futures.io/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=22

If you wanted to journal your trades (which I gather may not be your thing, but it might), then you could start here: https://futures.io/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=16

There was a recent mass email sent out explaining how to set up a new thread. If you don't have it, or would like to review its content, the steps are laid out in this thread:

I hope all this gives you enough options.

We want to encourage discussion, and we just try to keep things reasonably organized so that other members can easily find topics that interest them, and read and take part to the extent that they prefer.

Bob.

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  #67 (permalink)
 RoqRif 
Everett, WA
 
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joe s View Post
RoqRif Post some picks of your chart that would be interesting to see what
works for you

Bob has suggested where I should post. Not ready to do that yet. In the mean time if you are interested send me your email as I have had a couple of requests and I can forward what I have sent.

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  #68 (permalink)
 Chile 
Boston Massachusetts
 
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RoqRif View Post
I would share my system with anyone, you just have to ask. I would hesitate to put it out there, because it does work for me, but I would not want to endure the criticism.

I sent you a private message.

I promise not to criticise.

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  #69 (permalink)
 joe s 
sacramento ca us
 
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RoqRif
I sent private message
thanks Joe s

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  #70 (permalink)
 Camdo 
Boston, MA / USA
 
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The Holy Grail is "Read the bars and trade accordingly".

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  #71 (permalink)
Bubba1
Wichita Kansas USA
 
 
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I heard that if I found the key to the lock on wall street profits, then they would change the lock.

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  #72 (permalink)
 133usd 
Portland, ME
 
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I'll bite! Here is my "Holy Grail"...I mean, not at all a Holy Grail in the sense that you can easily follow it!

1.) You aren't perfect, so take HALF of your money and lock it up into an insured fixed income product. ex: 6-mo CD
Presto! You've "made" 50% return on your money! (not really...) Then what I do later on is force myself to build up a small account as a "challenge" and then if things are hot, I'll eventually get access to my own funding in due time, which means scaling up the strategy during the winning period.

2.) Learn how to read your own emotions. Cultivate discipline. Listen to your gut/develop intuition. Stop while you are ahead for the day. Do not trade more than 4 hours. Do not trade in the Evening. Grab a set amount of ticks and then stop trading! Trade smaller in volatility. Trade smaller at immediate open if you must.

3.) Use a volatility based stop while scalping. Enter the scalp if price is hanging near the stop price, that way you have some wiggle room and potential quick profit and a very small stop which could be a soft stop. There are lagging indicators for this, key word is lagging. So don't base all of your trades off of it. It can help find entries though.

4.) After I make money for the day, I switch over to trade an ETF or stock. IF I see a setup, I'll take the setup with maybe only 10 to 15 shares. Everything is so discounted that I'm fine with sinking the cash into it for the long term.
If I make money, even a small amount each day/week/month will slowly add up to boost my income and returns.
Bonus income adds up over time. $15 to $50 extra each day can add up quick. I prefer to be liquid but I do need to invest too, at these levels. Thus far I haven't gotten "stuck" in the desirable stocks/ETFs that I don't mind keeping.

5.) Prior day levels - some of my best trades are based on inside trading days where price is at a prior day low or high and that is ripe with opportunity. Buy Low, Sell High. Most children can instinctively trade well based on that simple criteria alone. Find the opening range for each day and draw it out, the high and low of the open...

6.) If you hit 2+ losing trades in a row, consider stopping for the day. Consider trading one of the smaller accounts (sub-divide money to place with different brokerages). I do not use hard stops or hard take profits. I do close half and let half run in the event I see a trend.

7.) Wait for "setups". If you are using trendlines, those change constantly on the smaller timeframes. Continue to wait and let the market create a "rhythm" that you can actually see. Higher high, higher low, lower high, lower low. Read price action. Drill down into tick charts if you scalp.

Literally everyday is a NEW day. Conditions will vary from day to day and remember not to be too mechanical, but do what works for you. There are days will you will get runners and days where it just won't go far in either direction.
There is a time to scalp and there are periods where you'll latch onto runners. Bottom line, make money!!!!! And do what works for YOU. Here's the thing... if you don't trade "by the book" but you make money, who's going to know? Nobody else matters except that you are in competition with your own worst enemy, thy self!


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  #73 (permalink)
 Mabi 
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I am only trading Algos. Now this was tuf for years but today it is no brainer. I only use strategies that have the same perfromance on atleast 3 other instruments and i trade them on those not the one i made it on.

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  #74 (permalink)
 4tison 
PhuKet Island / Thailand
 
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In terms of HOLY GRAIL,
do you mean that the HG works all the time? Or
that the HG generates profit all the time or
most of the time?

Yes, I do have a HG that generates
profit for me most of the time.

It does not work all the time,
just most of the normal time.

Would I part with it for
some enormous amount of
money?

The answer is, absolutely no.

It is not so much the money, but
is more of on the side of satisfaction derived
from being able to pick, when and where
you wish to enter your trade and
when and where the trade would
turn around when it almost hits
the resistance or support.

But that utopia does not exist
all the time either, but just most
of the time. It is a HG for me.

But for most traders, particularly
teaching educators, it surely does not
sound like a HG.... LOL

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  #75 (permalink)
farmer55
Minneapolis+ MN / USA
 
 
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I posted this many yrs ago on a similar thread. Still true today, if not more so.

"No one discloses the secret location to their hidden treasure".

So if one really. really believes this to be true,(most believe it to be true, but desperately want it not to be) then one also can recognize the real question that is actually being asked. Which is: Is there any one out there that actually makes money trading, and will they tell me exactly how they do it?

Or another way of saying it: What do you know, that I don't? And will there ever be a time that I can get it out of you?

What's the "Hidden Treasure"? The "Edge". An actual buy/sell signal and target that is profitable and repeatable.

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  #76 (permalink)
 LastDino 
Legendary Pratik_4Clover
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farmer55 View Post
I posted this many yrs ago on a similar thread. Still true today, if not more so.

"No one discloses the secret location to their hidden treasure".

So if one really. really believes this to be true,(most believe it to be true, but desperately want it not to be) then one also can recognize the real question that is actually being asked. Which is: Is there any one out there that actually makes money trading, and will they tell me exactly how they do it?

Or another way of saying it: What do you know, that I don't? And will there ever be a time that I can get it out of you?

What's the "Hidden Treasure"? The "Edge". An actual buy/sell signal and target that is profitable and repeatable.

It will be valid many more years after as well

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  #77 (permalink)
 4tison 
PhuKet Island / Thailand
 
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farmer55 View Post
I posted this many yrs ago on a similar thread. Still true today, if not more so.

"No one discloses the secret location to their hidden treasure".

So if one really. really believes this to be true,(most believe it to be true, but desperately want it not to be) then one also can recognize the real question that is actually being asked. Which is: Is there any one out there that actually makes money trading, and will they tell me exactly how they do it?

Or another way of saying it: What do you know, that I don't? And will there ever be a time that I can get it out of you?

What's the "Hidden Treasure"? The "Edge". An actual buy/sell signal and target that is profitable and repeatable.

May I ask what are you trading in recent days and
if you care to disclose with what profitable setups....?
With much thanks
4tison@gmail.com

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  #78 (permalink)
 mcjackson 
Colorado Springs, CO
 
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farmer55 View Post
I posted this many yrs ago on a similar thread. Still true today, if not more so.

"No one discloses the secret location to their hidden treasure".

So if one really. really believes this to be true,(most believe it to be true, but desperately want it not to be) then one also can recognize the real question that is actually being asked. Which is: Is there any one out there that actually makes money trading, and will they tell me exactly how they do it?

Or another way of saying it: What do you know, that I don't? And will there ever be a time that I can get it out of you?

What's the "Hidden Treasure"? The "Edge". An actual buy/sell signal and target that is profitable and repeatable.


I usually come at this from a different perspective.

I think a lot of traders make the mistake of looking for *more* knowledge vs developing skill through focused practice.

If you dig through the journals here and elsewhere, most of the struggles are about inconsistent application and straying from risk rules they already "know" about. I'm certainly guilty of that. It's a case of behavior, not really "knowledge".

And generally, I'd propose that many of us would be far better off approaching trading as a skill game to play deeply with focus vs an academic subject to study broadly.

So the "Holy Grail" in my head is a behavior-based journal that improves your actions day-to-day, month-to-month, etc.

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  #79 (permalink)
thoughtful
Bend OR
 
 
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trepidation View Post
That guy is being disingenuous and is trading in hindsight. He’s essentially using a variation of Renko, which is incredibly difficult to trade on NQ because of the fast price action. His first entry would’ve been a stop out and his second entry would’ve likely been missed because.... you had anywhere from less than a 1 second to under a minute to take that trade and would likely get slippage. Look at the timescale on the bottom. Every system looks like a holy grail in hindsight when you can see the result and don’t have to factor in time for analysis. Hence why he’s not flexing about making $10k, but trying to sell you the potential of $10k.

The only thing legit about that video is his use of the higher timeframe Renko variation because he’s identifying the major swing high or low and then taking trend trades off that using a simplified fib restatement. The entry chart is pure BS.

Yeah, I looked at this, and I figured out how he's calculating those bars. I forgot now, but basically, it starts a new bar when it passes a prior level/swing and Closes past it. His bars aren't really doing anything except encoding a basic pattern/entry-method into the bars, but IMO it's very lame. The bars are dumb because of those ridiculous wicks. He never talks about those wicks in his videos, what a mook. He says the 5min chart is BS but then he STILL uses it to do his trendlines LOLOL LAME.

I say... just use a P&F chart if you want something that consolidates the data well.

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  #80 (permalink)
thoughtful
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Obviously everyone has their own holy grail -- it's the best they can figure out. But, when you think about it, there's not THAT many ways you can analyze graph data. It's just data plotted on a graph. All data is basically the same thing, so you'd approach the markets the same way you'd approach a graph of temperature (weather) data. There's randomness (moreso than temperature data), so noone can predict what the majority of volume is doing all the time, or what the price will do... but there's the NON-randomness of the rules/laws by which the markets work... namely buy low & sell high, and that the participants are working on different scales (or time frames). But regardless of those laws, the data itself is actually SHOWING everyone what's really going on, but it's so sneaky/hidden because the stuff really going on happens on different scales and timeframes, so it's hard for people to come up with an analysis technique that DECODES the data well. But, I guess there probably is some way(s) that are better than what we all know now. So, I think there IS a holy grail -- it's whatever the best analysis technique(s) are -- whatever works the best. So, I think there is a mathematical analysis method or combination of methods that would technically outperform everything else. I'm not sure what that is exactly, but it seems to me that it's probably simpler and less flashy/amazing as everyone might think because afterall... it's just a data stream of ticks plotted as a graph. It's a game of checkers, even though most people think it's chess.

One thing I know for sure... the standard indicators included in all software, are garbage lol. I truly believe that, I actually understand the math behind them, I actually wrote code to improve on a few of them (like bollinger etc) so I put alot of thought into it, but hey, if someone uses it successfully, good for them, but those indicators are NOT what's actually making anyone successful IMO. Sure, you can say it's doing something, but what it's really doing is much less than you think it is. So you're better off looking at swing highs & lows (and what scale those are) instead of most indicators. Except for possibly EMA's/moving averages, and maybe bollinger or keltner if one knows how to use them correctly... although I don't even like bollinger/keltner because they're based on the average deviation concept, which is just a statistical estimation, instead of actually telling you something direct about the data.

I did alot of research, and I only found 4 or 5 analysis techniques that actually are logically sound and work. The rest are just nonsensical confusion that makes simple things more complicated.

IMHO of course

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  #81 (permalink)
 jmont1 
New York, NY
 
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thoughtful View Post
Obviously everyone has their own holy grail -- it's the best they can figure out.

I did a lot of research, and I only found 4 or 5 analysis techniques that actually are logically sound and work. The rest are just nonsensical confusion that makes simple things more complicated.

IMHO of course

@thoughtful, Sounds like you would share your not holy grail. May I request you expand on the technique you use? Would also be nice if you would share those improved indicators. Thanks in advance.

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  #82 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
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This should be good.

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  #83 (permalink)
jakolinko
Vienna, Austria
 
 
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I would be willing to help someone to a certain degree. Depends on the person, how much they really want it.

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 nikotron1124 
Anahein+California
 
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The way to trade the market is not by looking at indicators. All these indicators are given FREELY in every trading platform specifically of the reason that they don't work. No SANE person/trader will give something so that you can take money out of his/hers pocket. NO ONE!!!

In my trading after all these years using indicators and paying my trading tuition (like every body else does when he starts trading), I just use price levels for support/resistance AND using options to initiate my trade. Options are more, way more, flexible than straight long or short positions and WITH experience in using them, a trader can adjust the trade to his advantage. Anything else is really waste of.......money.

There is only one approach that I have found in the last couple of years that gives some INSIGHT to price action. It has been developed by Rob Smith and he has made available many videos on You Tube. One video that is worth seeing is called "The Greater Story ever Sold" (I Think).

Hope the above helps a little, especially new, aspiring traders. Wishing you the best success.

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  #85 (permalink)
SunTrader
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nikotron1124 View Post
The way to trade the market is not by looking at indicators...

So indicators freely available in trading software are useless ... but freely available youtube trading videos are useful. Got it.


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  #86 (permalink)
 nikotron1124 
Anahein+California
 
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Those "freely" available videos they say NOTHING about indicators. As a mild/kind suggestion, please, watch and see for yourself if it makes sense the explanation of price action. It could turn out an experience that would prevent blowing up a (yours?) trading account. Wishing you all the best in you trading.........

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  #87 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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SunTrader View Post
So indicators freely available in trading software are useless ... but freely available youtube trading videos are useful. Got it.


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qopl
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That's a big striking difference between this site and ET. The posts here are more quality and I don't really see trolls. However the business model here, charging for everyone's free discussion in certain sub-forums rubs me the wrong way.

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  #89 (permalink)
 jokertrader 
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@qopl everyone has their view but over several years I have learnt quite a bit, seen different ideas, strategies which are more focused and can be adapted, utilized... downloads that can Actually be adopted etc... the elite fee is minuscule for what u get and kudos to Big Mike for this... I would pay the fee for just the hours I have spent filling my time and here it’s time well spent


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  #90 (permalink)
 Oriole 
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qopl View Post
That's a big striking difference between this site and ET. The posts here are more quality and I don't really see trolls. However the business model here, charging for everyone's free discussion in certain sub-forums rubs me the wrong way.

Don't you think Big Mike's time to set this all up and the infrastructure needed is worth ANYTHING? I think $100 for life for all this place offers is the deal of the century.

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  #91 (permalink)
SunTrader
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nikotron1124 View Post
Those "freely" available videos they say NOTHING about indicators. As a mild/kind suggestion, please, watch and see for yourself if it makes sense the explanation of price action. It could turn out an experience that would prevent blowing up a (yours?) trading account. Wishing you all the best in you trading.........

I was repeating your own words free indicators and free videos (never said videos on indicators) and showing the contradiction. Thanks for the wishes but I've been trading many years before this website or even .io designation existed.

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  #92 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
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trepidation View Post
If you found the Holy Grail, would you share it with the world? By Holy Grail, all I mean is a system or methodology that can consistently yield profits in all market conditions however it does it and also make a good ROI.

Would you ask for compensation? I once bought a course and to this day I'm haunted by what this popular guru let accidently slip. He said that these days he was too busy teaching to actually trade. Think about that for a minute. He was living off of other people's hopes and dreams and in doing so was living their dreams.

So far there've been alot of people that have been trying to sell the dream of systems and strategies or even signals that make bank. These days I've seen an evolution in the landscape where people try to sell the idea that you can't get rich quick and instead they sell another dream via support groups or training. To me, both of these types of people are feeding off the dreams of other people. That isn't to say they don't produce value, but if they created an absurd amount of value they would be renown across the internet.

Just as this is two sides of a coin, so too is the question of the Holy Grail. On one side there's the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (candlestick patterns) and on the other there's this idea of alpha decay where the more people that know, the less effective your edge becomes (arbitraging). What are your thoughts?

Roy Niederhoffer to interviewer Niels...

Niels: I agree simplicity often leads to more robust outputs in the long term. Looking at all those things, trying to determine what, in lack of a better word, indicators to use in order to describe that, is there anything that you found that you generally think works better when you want to achieve that kind of thing? Some kind of a favorite indicator that actually is usually more robust than others when it comes to trying to do things in a simple way?

Roy: Well, If I'd found the Holy Grail I certainly wouldn't be discussing it in a public forum like this. I hope you'll... if I demur on that particular answer. Do we have a few things that we really feel are the most important things to look at? Yes.

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 joe s 
sacramento ca us
 
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I agree the price for what you get is well worth it

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 RDK91 
Antwerp
 
 
Posts: 454 since Jun 2016

In my opinion there is no such thing as a holy grail.

Sticking to the basics is what i found most valuable, basics meaning looking at things that represents the actual market.

VIX, NYSE TICK, TRIN, NYSE advance/decline and NYSE up/down volume.

These so called market internals show what the actual stock market is doing, they can give a very clear indication on what the indexes will do next. Last few weeks i had some stupid simple trades that i could never have seen without looking at the internals. I found the internals to be the only "indicator" that can actually be leading for the ES.

No magical indicators, no 100 lines on my charts, just some basic trend lines, overnight levels and market internals.
That is all you need.

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 bobc 
Boksburg, South Africa
 
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nikotron1124 View Post
Those "freely" available videos they say NOTHING about indicators. As a mild/kind suggestion, please, watch and see for yourself if it makes sense the explanation of price action. It could turn out an experience that would prevent blowing up a (yours?) trading account. Wishing you all the best in you trading.........

Hi Niko
I have looked at Rob Smith > There are a number of similar trading methods using inside and outside bars + higher and lower time frame continunity.
But he does offer something extra ,and I am intrigued
There is a current thread on Futures which covers this method and I will direct some questions there ................
"Tao te trade"by Wildman
Thank you for your help
regards
bobc

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 nikotron1124 
Anahein+California
 
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Price Action as is taught by Rob Smith makes a lot of sense. One has to take his course, because the "free videos" give just a glimpse of what is really working. It takes some time to get used to it and to use it profitably. Sometimes an indicator such as ADX with +DI/-DI may help the beginner, but it is better not to use anything at all, so a trader does not get a "self bias" as to the trade setup. Using an indicator makes one to see something that "true" price action does not show. Using time frames from annual, to quarterly, to monthly, to weekly, to daily, to hourly, to 30-minute, and finally just for entry ONLY the 10-minute will give ample time to see the trade setting up and figure out the entry and then the exit, of course. Overall, it has make a BIG difference in my trading and in my trading results being over 70% profitable.

Hope the above helps. Wishing you the best for your trading endeavors, always.

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SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
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I've been reminded a few times myself lately but the topic is sharing a holy grail. Not giving someone free advertising, especially on another platform.

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 bobc 
Boksburg, South Africa
 
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SunTrader View Post
I've been reminded a few times myself lately but the topic is sharing a holy grail. Not giving someone free advertising, especially on another platform.

Hi Sun Trader
I remember you from about 10"years ago on a different website. You were trading gold. I note you have still not completed reading your copy of Dale Carnegies "How to make friends and influence people"
I do tend to agree with you on the validity of Rob Smiths method, BUT everybody should have a choice ,and maybe it is a Holy Grail. We,ll see.
Kind regards
bobc

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 RDK91 
Antwerp
 
 
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bobc View Post
Hi Sun Trader
I remember you from about 10"years ago on a different website. You were trading gold. I note you have still not completed reading your copy of Dale Carnegies "How to make friends and influence people"
I do tend to agree with you on the validity of Rob Smiths method, BUT everybody should have a choice ,and maybe it is a Holy Grail. We,ll see.
Kind regards
bobc

If it where a holy grail everyone learning it would be millionaire in no time.

There is no such thing as a holy grail.

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SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
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bobc View Post
Hi Sun Trader
I remember you from about 10"years ago on a different website. You were trading gold. I note you have still not completed reading your copy of Dale Carnegies "How to make friends and influence people"
I do tend to agree with you on the validity of Rob Smiths method, BUT everybody should have a choice ,and maybe it is a Holy Grail. We,ll see.
Kind regards
bobc

Actually I took the course itself while in college. I completed the course but .... dropped out of college. LOL

But to rephrase my earlier post the topic is your holy grail. Hey I could care less really. Carry on.

I will add, I never mentioned my holy grail - and never will - because no one would believe it.

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