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Would you share your Holy Grail?


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Would you share your Holy Grail?

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  #201 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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Fluid Fox View Post
My biggest challenge as a trader is in trying to figure out if the current trade I'm in is likely to be a winner or loser (LOL). I have experienced many instances in which a trade I surely thought was going to be a loser became a winner, and vice versa. It particularly sucks when a trade comes within mere points of my profit target and reverses to stop me out- but my philosophy now is "tough shit." I had an idea, I executed the trade, and I really don't know if it's going to work or not.. It's out of my hands. It either works or it doesn't. Thankfully I'm not too concerned with the outcome of one particular trade. I have faith that if I always stick to my stops and targets, I will come out positive eventually. Not to mention, it's a consistent approach and I never regret closing a trade too early. I can't stand that. There's evidence of it in my first journal.

This is not to say that I don't think that there's not valuable MGI that should be considered while in a trade, but this is more of a measure to compensate for my own poor judgement / psychology while in a trade. Right now I obviously have quite a black and white view of exits and it is subject to change as I grow, but nothing has taught me more to hold my winners than obeying my stop loss rule. I will stick to this rule until I realize that in all likelihood that what I'm doing won't pan out in the long run and that I need to be more flexible with my exits.. I will say, it's been very promising so far. It keeps me in trades.

Just thought I'd share this one last time. I share because it made a huge difference for me, but I acknowledge that it may not be well suited to you and you have your own way. Because I have this rule, my weakness is "overstaying my welcome." I did have a winning trade on my hands today, I just chose to hold out longer.

I appreciate you sharing that @Fluid Fox, and I thought of you right after my stop got hit and I thought you deserve to slap me in the face for exiting early after all we discussed

I promise to come back with a much stronger intention tomorrow.

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  #202 (permalink)
Legendary Mr. Sock and Buskin
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snax View Post
I appreciate you sharing that @Fluid Fox, and I thought of you right after my stop got hit and I thought you deserve to slap me in the face for exiting early after all we discussed

I promise to come back with a much stronger intention tomorrow.

I'm glad. You don't deserve that much @snax.. This is a difficult issue to begin with and I can relate to it.

I think it's only a matter of time before you resolve it. Remember that intention tomorrow right before you place the trade!

Also, I tend to distract myself after entering in the FIO chat. I'm sure there's some accountability there if you want it.

There's nothing to think about.

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  #203 (permalink)
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bobc View Post
Well ...
Even poor old Sun Trader was polite, but he has to be because I ve got the goods on him.

More holygrail info to follow
regards
bobc

So that's what being polite gets you. I was wondering where my "goods" were at.

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  #204 (permalink)
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA
 
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snax View Post
Got any advice for those of us who close winners too early, even when we know better?[/url]

I think this question could be rephrased simply as, "How do I know when to exit?"

And, I think, this is probably the single biggest hurdle any of us face, and it will always remain the hurdle at any given instance. More important than when to enter. It's the core of trading.

Take a hypothetical where you're in a trade and it is 3 ticks from hitting your target exit price. Let's say your stop is 16 tick backwards. In a sense, you're now risking those 16 ticks in order to pick up those last 3 ticks. Not cool.

But, to your point that you mentioned, if you constantly break your rules by exiting shy of your target, your method and your expectancy will begin to falter.

So which is the correct answer....stick to your rules or manage the trade with market generated information?

I cannot think of any single bigger dilemma than this.

I have four points on how I think about this, but I do not know the answer.

First, scaling out of positions tends to mitigate these problems but does not completely resolve the issue. Second, being able to identify exhaustion would help to mitigate but does not resolve the issue either. Third, knowing key levels at which you want to do business should tell you key zones where an exit would most likely be warranted, and this will also help but not completely resolve the issue because it depends on your ability to identify key levels or zones. Fourth, trade analytics trade analytics trade analytics. I beleive that when you combine the first three points with trade analytics, you can begin to get better at knowing when to exit and when to let positions run.

What I mean by trade analytics is: a) max adverse excursion, b) max favorable excursion, and c) some measurement of how far (if at all) price went in your favor AFTER you exited. The MAE and MFE only show how far negative and how far positive your position went while you were in the position. Most analytics programs that I've seen completely stop measuring after you get flat, and therefore have no way to determine whether and to what extent you exited too early. In other words, the programs really only tell you if you exited too late. This is a subtle but important distinction. I need an analytics tool that tells me if I exited too early. Which is to say, whether and to what extent price went in my favor after I got flat.

The trade analytics are a part of the journaling process that will help inform whether you're 1) scaling out of positions properly, 2) identifying exhaustion properly, and 3) identifying key levels properly..which is what you need to know in order to know if your exits need improvements.

If anyone has a trade analytics program (kind of like FT's S5 Trade Analyzer) that tells me whether and to what extent price went in my favor after I got flat, please tell me. I can usually just write it in my trade journal, manually. But hard numbers over a long period of time, which are not subject to my input bias, would be pretty cool.

Finally, I think that to have this type of tool, the user would have to define a max time length after going flat that the program will look to determine whether and to what extent price continued in the trade's favor. This would be a different time length for different people, depending on how long they typically hold positions open. But, to be honest, the tool could discern the average hold time based on the account's history and use that to determine how far after exit to watch and see. Hope that makes sense.

Great discussion here, btw. Thanks gentlemen!

PS. If I'm wrong or missing something, please let me know. Maybe I'm not really thinking clearly enough about this issue.

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  #205 (permalink)
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snax View Post
Got any advice for those of us who close winners too early, even when we know better? I am so fed up with getting in my own way


Sent using the futures.io mobile app

I developed an in indicator on a range bar chart that I use and it takes out emotions on my part . It does get me out early at times but also gets me out of a bad trade early . Is it perfect , of course not but it works decent for me .

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  #206 (permalink)
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SunTrader View Post
So that's what being polite gets you. I was wondering where my "goods" were at.

Hi Sun Trader
I heard you were in Belize
How did the boat run?
regards
bobc

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  #207 (permalink)
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And now the end is near....

It appears the biggest bone of contention is "" betting the farm""
Firstly , you will think very carefully before you do this.That will make a good trade.
Secondly, you want to trade in the white Ford Stationwagen
You dont have to bet the farm !!You can pick any amount
Its your choice
bobc

PS
I am waiting for permission to post an article , otherwise I will try and explain my big trade.

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  #208 (permalink)
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Japhro View Post
For me, 2 reasons :
1. There is a lot of waiting. much more waiting that trading right now. I live in Asia so I only trade from 8am EST to about 12-1pm EST, but out of that time period I might only be in trades for 20-30mins total. The rest is waiting
2. I trade the same 2-3 setups over and over. If I don't get my preferred setups, I don't trade. See above. Trading the same setups might seem boring, and it is, but that is offset largely by ringing in a winning trade.

Mostly, I trade intraday reversals based on a few things that I watch, then price action and orderflow for the entry. There is nothing fancy or exotic, I try to establish market context (bullish, bearish, neutral conditions) and generally only trade neutral/range days. I have about an 82% win rate now and just do the same thing over and over.

Can't agree more, waiting and routine is the name of the game

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  #209 (permalink)
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My go-to indicator to look for alignment in the trend is the good old reliable MACD. However, I change the setting to 8/13/3. I use one-minute, three-minute and five-minute charts and simply watch. When they line up and are coordinated (all tending to point up, or tending to point down), I check the one minute for my entry. A 20 EMA or VWAP is also on my charts. I make sure market structure is in my favor as well and trend trade according to the structure. I use a couple of neurostreet indicators. These are great as well, but the MACD is a hangover from my previous approach but it works so well I've hung on to using it -- like a security blanket for my trades.

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  #210 (permalink)
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There really isn't that many different ways of approaching trading correctly, but there are an infinite number of ways to trade incorrectly. Unfortunately, higher visibility is a user level factor, and the acquisition of information and adoption of that information transfers almost instantaneously when it is readily available, versus when one has to seek it out and perception of adoption is non-existent.

Obviously, there are many more failed traders than successful traders, so there is a very high probability, that there is a commensurate amount of bad advice and faulty knowledge available to aspiring newbie traders. In other words, what-they-see-is what-they-get. The stuff that really works takes time and is hard work to uncover. That is, the methodological wrapper for inductively organizing the information gathered is accomplished through quasi-experimentation.

The other problem is, people believe what they want to believe, see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear. They tend to avoid information that contradicts what they already think or believe, and tend to seek out other like-minded people. Itís the guiding force behind organized religion, the political system, cults, and yes...forums.

Researchers found that people are about twice as likely to select information that supports their own point of view (67 percent) as to consider an opposing idea (33 percent) and 3 times as reluctant to consider differing perspective when it pertains to politics and religion. One could only imagine what the percentage is when it comes to money and trading -probably 95-99%, huh? I've seen this phenomenon repeat itself ad infinitum on this forum. Big Mike and other experienced traders will dole out advice, and it is summarily ignored or even refuted, by aspiring traders with little experience.

It is not only easy to get sidetracked, spun around, and derailed by the markets, but one can also be misled if the information they are receiving is apocryphal. Everyone wants to make money, but with respect to what? Everyone one wants to wrestle the gorilla, until the door opens. So, instead of making rational decisions based on objective observation, they make emotional decisions that make them feel safe and comfortable. They develop a compulsive addiction to this stimulus-response loop which reduces them to instant-gratification junkies. They may have a seemingly effective methodology that generates profitable trades, but in the end, they never get ahead because they end giving it all back in the rake and grind. They either choose the markets-they-trade and the strategies-they-use randomly, or once again, make the decision based on comfort.

The result is that 80% of the ideas that are freely exchanged on this site are invalid. They are misguided, anachronistic, simplistic, irrelevant and often just plain wrong. The dilemma is, how does one separate the wheat from the chaff. Logic would dictate, and it is confirmed from my personal experience, that the best place to seek knowledge is from someone who is extremely knowledgeable and experienced. So for starters, i would question the quality of the sources of the advice you are seeking, and look to those individuals who are proven and have successfully accomplished what you seek to achieve.

Rational traders incorporate risk into the determination of their expectation, because their approach is reason-based, rather than driven by emotion. They are able to build positions, add to their positions, and follow the move-to-the-end. They focus on getting bigger, and size their trades to get the maximum compounded growth of their capital relative to the amount of risk they are willing to incur, and they trade the markets and use the strategies that allows them to accomplish these goals. They realize and accept that markets vary from day-to-day and even intra-day, and that it is unwise to trade the market the same way, on days that aren't alike.

Forums can be beneficial and I would certainly argue that more education is preferable to less, provided the education doesn't impede someone's ability to reason things through for themselves. And provided the knowledge that is imparted is accurate and doesnít mislead itís readers.. In order to effectively convey ideas to others, you must amend their perspective and their point of reference, so that they may see it anew, and from an entry point that they will understand. To spare them the inevitable beatings of otherwise learning it the hard way is not often appreciated until its too late.

I realize this is very theoretical sounding and not very practical in nature, but it is not without its reason. Learn to think critically (& on your own) and don't be a follower. The way you choose to learn and acquire expertise in trading is as important as the actual process. So, give it careful thought and approach it logically - develop a plan to learn and then execute the plan. Forget about popular opinion and don't take anything at face value. Organize and filter your ideas and determine what is relevant, but allow conflicting ideas to generate new conclusions. Keep in mind, that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

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  #211 (permalink)
Legendary Mr. Sock and Buskin
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@snax..

What I understood from tigertrader's post is that I'm in no position to hand out advice because I'm inexperienced, and the advice I gave most likely isn't advice that would help you to profitability. What stood out the most to me was:

"The stuff that really works takes time and is hard work to uncover. That is, the methodological wrapper for inductively organizing the information gathered is accomplished through quasi-experimentation."

and

"Rational traders incorporate risk into the determination of their expectation, because their approach is reason-based, rather than driven by emotion. They are able to build positions, add to their positions, and follow the move-to-the-end. They focus on getting bigger, and size their trades to get the maximum compounded growth of their capital relative to the amount of risk they are willing to incur, and they trade the markets and use the strategies that allows them to accomplish these goals. They realize and accept that markets vary from day-to-day and even intra-day, and that it is unwise to trade the market the same way, on days that aren't alike."

I still have a ways to go. I think this post is enough to stop me from trying to help others, because trading is a very independent process. I suppose what I'm really trying to say is: take what I said with a grain of salt, if you hadn't already.

There's nothing to think about.

- Mark Douglas
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  #212 (permalink)
Scarborough
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
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Posts: 27 since Apr 2020


tigertrader View Post
There really isn't that many different ways of approaching trading correctly, but there are an infinite number of ways to trade incorrectly. Unfortunately, higher visibility is a user level factor, and the acquisition of information and adoption of that information transfers almost instantaneously when it is readily available, versus when one has to seek it out and perception of adoption is non-existent.

Obviously, there are many more failed traders than successful traders, so there is a very high probability, that there is a commensurate amount of bad advice and faulty knowledge available to aspiring newbie traders. In other words, what-they-see-is what-they-get. The stuff that really works takes time and is hard work to uncover. That is, the methodological wrapper for inductively organizing the information gathered is accomplished through quasi-experimentation.

The other problem is, people believe what they want to believe, see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear. They tend to avoid information that contradicts what they already think or believe, and tend to seek out other like-minded people. Itís the guiding force behind organized religion, the political system, cults, and yes...forums.

Researchers found that people are about twice as likely to select information that supports their own point of view (67 percent) as to consider an opposing idea (33 percent) and 3 times as reluctant to consider differing perspective when it pertains to politics and religion. One could only imagine what the percentage is when it comes to money and trading -probably 95-99%, huh? I've seen this phenomenon repeat itself ad infinitum on this forum. Big Mike and other experienced traders will dole out advice, and it is summarily ignored or even refuted, by aspiring traders with little experience.

It is not only easy to get sidetracked, spun around, and derailed by the markets, but one can also be misled if the information they are receiving is apocryphal. Everyone wants to make money, but with respect to what? Everyone one wants to wrestle the gorilla, until the door opens. So, instead of making rational decisions based on objective observation, they make emotional decisions that make them feel safe and comfortable. They develop a compulsive addiction to this stimulus-response loop which reduces them to instant-gratification junkies. They may have a seemingly effective methodology that generates profitable trades, but in the end, they never get ahead because they end giving it all back in the rake and grind. They either choose the markets-they-trade and the strategies-they-use randomly, or once again, make the decision based on comfort.

The result is that 80% of the ideas that are freely exchanged on this site are invalid. They are misguided, anachronistic, simplistic, irrelevant and often just plain wrong. The dilemma is, how does one separate the wheat from the chaff. Logic would dictate, and it is confirmed from my personal experience, that the best place to seek knowledge is from someone who is extremely knowledgeable and experienced. So for starters, i would question the quality of the sources of the advice you are seeking, and look to those individuals who are proven and have successfully accomplished what you seek to achieve.

Rational traders incorporate risk into the determination of their expectation, because their approach is reason-based, rather than driven by emotion. They are able to build positions, add to their positions, and follow the move-to-the-end. They focus on getting bigger, and size their trades to get the maximum compounded growth of their capital relative to the amount of risk they are willing to incur, and they trade the markets and use the strategies that allows them to accomplish these goals. They realize and accept that markets vary from day-to-day and even intra-day, and that it is unwise to trade the market the same way, on days that aren't alike.

Forums can be beneficial and I would certainly argue that more education is preferable to less, provided the education doesn't impede someone's ability to reason things through for themselves. And provided the knowledge that is imparted is accurate and doesnít mislead itís readers.. In order to effectively convey ideas to others, you must amend their perspective and their point of reference, so that they may see it anew, and from an entry point that they will understand. To spare them the inevitable beatings of otherwise learning it the hard way is not often appreciated until its too late.

I realize this is very theoretical sounding and not very practical in nature, but it is not without its reason. Learn to think critically (& on your own) and don't be a follower. The way you choose to learn and acquire expertise in trading is as important as the actual process. So, give it careful thought and approach it logically - develop a plan to learn and then execute the plan. Forget about popular opinion and don't take anything at face value. Organize and filter your ideas and determine what is relevant, but allow conflicting ideas to generate new conclusions. Keep in mind, that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.


I could read your responses all day long. You are a true master with in-depth understanding of the market, trader mentality / psychology and behaviour. You know and understand our strengths and weaknesses, the root cause of our possible successes and imminent failures. You have made my decision to joining futures.io a benefit and a privilege. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, true knowledge and wisdom of the ins and outs of this magnificent game. I truly appreciate your contribution. Just reading your posts are bound to make me a better trader. I promise you that. You are a true master.

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  #213 (permalink)
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Emmanuel Erskine View Post
I could read your responses all day long. You are a true master with in-depth understanding of the market, trader mentality / psychology and behaviour. You know and understand our strengths and weaknesses, the root cause of our possible successes and imminent failures. You have made my decision to joining futures.io a benefit and a privilege. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, true knowledge and wisdom of the ins and outs of this magnificent game. I truly appreciate your contribution. Just reading your posts are bound to make me a better trader. I promise you that. You are a true master.

I always strive to be the dumbest person in the room (which isn't that difficult for me). If I was the smartest, I would never learn anything new, or of value.

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  #214 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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Fluid Fox View Post
@snax..

What I understood from tigertrader's post is that I'm in no position to hand out advice because I'm inexperienced, and the advice I gave most likely isn't advice that would help you to profitability. What stood out the most to me was:

"The stuff that really works takes time and is hard work to uncover. That is, the methodological wrapper for inductively organizing the information gathered is accomplished through quasi-experimentation."

and

"Rational traders incorporate risk into the determination of their expectation, because their approach is reason-based, rather than driven by emotion. They are able to build positions, add to their positions, and follow the move-to-the-end. They focus on getting bigger, and size their trades to get the maximum compounded growth of their capital relative to the amount of risk they are willing to incur, and they trade the markets and use the strategies that allows them to accomplish these goals. They realize and accept that markets vary from day-to-day and even intra-day, and that it is unwise to trade the market the same way, on days that aren't alike."

I still have a ways to go. I think this post is enough to stop me from trying to help others, because trading is a very independent process. I suppose what I'm really trying to say is: take what I said with a grain of salt, if you hadn't already.

@Fluid Fox, don't beat yourself up! I personally try to take in as much information as I can but I always filter it through the lens of what I "perceive" to be working for me, which is what I have found through live trading on my own.

You shouldn't worry, you are not going to accidently derail me or something, and I would argue that you should share your experiences. Everyone needs to have some ability to "separate the wheat from the chaffe" developed to some prerequisite level. ie. the ability to be open-minded, take what works, discard what doesn't fit your plan (or only temporarily discard certain things to come back to when they make more sense).

Its a slow Friday so I feel like rambling a bit about this notion of a holy grail.

My "grail" in my mind is kind of like an artifact splintered into many different pieces scattered far and wide across many different domains. There is a lot of ceremony I think through when not in front of the screen. I think about the vision of the end-goal. I think about where I am now. I am constantly refining the path between those two endpoints in my mind.

Doing this has led to a lot of meditating on whatever problems I am currently facing and I think one piece of the grail is enjoying this process of "becoming". Constantly keeping the subject of trading in front of you, journaling, reading. Finding an aspect of the markets that you really geek out about and following it and studying it. I love price-action to the point that I don't care if someone says it works, it doesn't work, its useless gambling, etc. because I know that when i study the spectrum of material that is called "price-action I improve as a trader. It is one piece of the (Big) puzzle that I feel good about (what is true about the market right now on the chart in front of me?) . Constantly evaluating my response to what I'm seeing on the chart, Constantly reviewing...over time I've noticed I don't have to deal with problems I used to be afraid of, that's one improvement from constant reviewing. You see your path being refined and if it is improving it creates a positive feedback loop. My development as a beginning trader has had many isolated days where some spark ignited (chart-reading from the trading sessions of Feb 27&28 earlier this year) where suddenly i started seeing in real-time all kinds of stuff I only saw in hind-sight prior to those days. If I didn't journal and constantly remember, review, revise I would forget because I didn't just flip a switch and suddenly transform, that ability all but disappeared for weeks at a time and if I hadn't written it down and sketched up charts and things I may have forgotten what it was like to be that aware. Since I remember, I've started having more and more days like that. I want to keep improving that awareness until its always presenet and I don't need to worry about "forgetting" it anymore.

The next piece of my grail that I percieve is more subtle and its kind of like "learning to perceive the differences between the feelings of different thoughts and impulses"...and creating a distance between them in your mind, so you can recognize things like impulse vs intuition, compare them side by side, think about them abstractly and gain an understanding of them. It will take more thought to write about that in a way that makes sense I think.

That's probably enough rambling for now and I'm probably going to write something the wrong way and get an earful about it but remember, this is just the way I perceive my journey and sharing it in the hope that it benefits others, not by telling them what to do to make money but by opening their ideas up, cross-pollination of ideas is a good thing.

Cheers and Happy Friday, I hope you all keep following your paths.

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  #215 (permalink)
Scarborough
 
Experience: Intermediate
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tigertrader View Post
I always strive to be the dumbest person in the room (which isn't that difficult for me). If I was the smartest, I would never learn anything new, or of value.

Your humility is infectious

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  #216 (permalink)
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Emmanuel Erskine View Post
Your humility is infectious

an old piece I wrote on humility...

I was waxing nostalgic when I was reminded of one of my mentor's favorite preceptsÖ

Not that it was anyone's business, and not that anyone really cared, but after the trading day was over, one was often asked matter-of-factly, "So how'd you do today?" Even back-in-the day (on the floor of all places) traders doled out socially acceptable responses to this very probing question. These responses were realistically based on a hierarchical assessment of one's intra-day p&l.

Ranging from bad to worse, were the losing daysÖ

- they got me
- got killed
- at least I got my health

Ranging from good to better, were the winning days

- not a bad day
- got 'em
- had a nice week today

A gentleman never kisses and tells; and a trader does not provide full disclosure about his performance; the trader should instead exhibit humility. For those on the left, humility may be seen as political correctness by a different name, while those on the right may see it as a way of stifling free expression. However, like a poker player without a tell, one should never be able to discern if a trader had a good day or a bad one. A trader shouldn't whine, or proffer excuses on bad days; and there should be neither bragging, nor hubris tendered on the good ones.

Trading makes strange bedfellows. Individuals from disparate backgrounds with varying opinions, beliefs, and philosophies are brought together by their passion for profit. But, what should also unite them is a shared belief that humility is not only there to protect them, but is a kind of moral compass that should always remain a virtue.

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  #217 (permalink)
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Hi Sun Trader
I heard you were in Belize
How did the boat run?
regards
bobc

Me and McAfee.

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  #218 (permalink)
Scarborough
 
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tigertrader View Post
an old piece I wrote on humility...

I was waxing nostalgic when I was reminded of one of my mentor's favorite preceptsÖ

Not that it was anyone's business, and not that anyone really cared, but after the trading day was over, one was often asked matter-of-factly, "So how'd you do today?" Even back-in-the day (on the floor of all places) traders doled out socially accepted responses to this very probing question. These responses were realistically based on a hierarchical assessment of one's intra-day p&l.

Ranging from bad to worse, were the losing daysÖ

- they got me
- got killed
- at least I got my health

Ranging from good to better, were the winning days

- not a bad day
- got 'em
- had a nice week today

A gentleman never kisses and tells; and a trader does not provide full disclosure about his performance; the trader should instead exhibit humility. For those on the left, humility may be seen as political correctness by a different name, while those on the right may see it as a way of stifling free expression. However, like a poker player without a tell, one should never be able to discern if a trader had a good day or a bad one. A trader shouldn't whine, or proffer excuses on bad days; and there should be neither bragging, nor hubris tendered on the good ones.

Trading makes strange bedfellows. Individuals from disparate backgrounds with varying opinions, beliefs, and philosophies are brought together by their passion for profit. But, what should also unite them is a shared belief that humility is not only there to protect them, but is a kind of moral compass that should always remain a virtue.

Iím not sure how to say this but you sure are filling in a lot of gaps for me and Iím truly grateful. Iíve always tried to not let good days get to my head and had days affect my spirit or emotional state. This story really explains the importance of humility in trading or shall I say, in my trading life or future. Thank you for this piece. A true sparkling nugget.

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  #219 (permalink)
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My go-to indicator to look for alignment in the trend is the good old reliable MACD. However, I change the setting to 8/13/3. I use one-minute, three-minute and five-minute charts and simply watch. When they line up and are coordinated (all tending to point up, or tending to point down), I check the one minute for my entry. A 20 EMA or VWAP is also on my charts. I make sure market structure is in my favor as well and trend trade according to the structure. I use a couple of neurostreet indicators. These are great as well, but the MACD is a hangover from my previous approach but it works so well I've hung on to using it -- like a security blanket for my trades.

What ever helps you to have that edge that helps you succeed is golden . Funny thing is what works for one may not work for someone else .

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  #220 (permalink)
Anahein+California
 
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Having traded for quite some years now, I can say that our BRAINS, as humans, have the ability to recognize patterns and setups that have seen in the past and form an "opinion" as to what trade to make. When such event occurs and my brain gives me the "trade", then without any hesitation I will start by placing a "Collar" position which makes known the "cost" of the trade right then and there. That "Collar" position is then adjusted as the "trade" develops. Keeping an eye on the "Options" volume and open interest further helps the "Brain" to recognize how the trade is progressing. Do I use any "indicators"? NO. I used to in the beginning, like anybody else (out of fear of the unknown and fear for my money). Some trading platforms, like the one I use from Interactive Brokers, have the ability to show with color if a price/volume/open interest is increasing (green), or decreasing (orange) from the previous value. That makes it extremely helpful for the "Brain" to make a decision as to how the "trade" is progressing. It would take someone some trading experience (of few painful years) to have one's "brain" reach that level, but eventually one will reach it hopefully still having money to continue to trade. One concept that has helped me a lot, and I have mentioned it here in past postings, is Rob Smith's "RevStrat" as he calls it. It has really made my life as a trader less painful and much more profitable. So there you have it, this is my "Holy Grail" in trading. Wishing everybody happy and profitable trading and keep looking at the price action, thus continuing your brain's training and eventually you will trade successfully.

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nikotron1124 View Post
Having traded for quite some years now, I can say that our BRAINS, as humans, have the ability to recognize patterns and setups that have seen in the past and form an "opinion" as to what trade to make. When such event occurs and my brain gives me the "trade", then without any hesitation I will start by placing a "Collar" position which makes known the "cost" of the trade right then and there. That "Collar" position is then adjusted as the "trade" develops. Keeping an eye on the "Options" volume and open interest further helps the "Brain" to recognize how the trade is progressing. Do I use any "indicators"? NO. I used to in the beginning, like anybody else (out of fear of the unknown and fear for my money). Some trading platforms, like the one I use from Interactive Brokers, have the ability to show with color if a price/volume/open interest is increasing (green), or decreasing (orange) from the previous value. That makes it extremely helpful for the "Brain" to make a decision as to how the "trade" is progressing. It would take someone some trading experience (of few painful years) to have one's "brain" reach that level, but eventually one will reach it hopefully still having money to continue to trade. One concept that has helped me a lot, and I have mentioned it here in past postings, is Rob Smith's "RevStrat" as he calls it. It has really made my life as a trader less painful and much more profitable. So there you have it, this is my "Holy Grail" in trading. Wishing everybody happy and profitable trading and keep looking at the price action, thus continuing your brain's training and eventually you will trade successfully.

There are several ways of making money in the mkt. , one needs to find what works for them . I started with stocks and lost . I then went to options and lost . I finally realized I had no idea what I was doing . I then realized trading was business not some game . You better have a plan and a good one . I have been doing this for almost 30 years now and I am still learning new methods and adapting to the changes over the years . I don't care what business you are in you better be ready for what's around the corner or you won't survive . The last I heard only 7 % of the people survive more then a year in this business . Price action certainly is a key factor for any trader .

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  #222 (permalink)
Scarborough
 
Experience: Intermediate
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tigertrader View Post
an old piece I wrote on humility...

I was waxing nostalgic when I was reminded of one of my mentor's favorite preceptsÖ

Not that it was anyone's business, and not that anyone really cared, but after the trading day was over, one was often asked matter-of-factly, "So how'd you do today?" Even back-in-the day (on the floor of all places) traders doled out socially acceptable responses to this very probing question. These responses were realistically based on a hierarchical assessment of one's intra-day p&l.

Ranging from bad to worse, were the losing daysÖ

- they got me
- got killed
- at least I got my health

Ranging from good to better, were the winning days

- not a bad day
- got 'em
- had a nice week today

A gentleman never kisses and tells; and a trader does not provide full disclosure about his performance; the trader should instead exhibit humility. For those on the left, humility may be seen as political correctness by a different name, while those on the right may see it as a way of stifling free expression. However, like a poker player without a tell, one should never be able to discern if a trader had a good day or a bad one. A trader shouldn't whine, or proffer excuses on bad days; and there should be neither bragging, nor hubris tendered on the good ones.

Trading makes strange bedfellows. Individuals from disparate backgrounds with varying opinions, beliefs, and philosophies are brought together by their passion for profit. But, what should also unite them is a shared belief that humility is not only there to protect them, but is a kind of moral compass that should always remain a virtue.


I was looking at your profile and your weblink and was wondering if you can tell me a bit about tradestrong and if you are still running it. Please and thank you. Iíve not been able to stop reading your writing. Is it a company that builds traders?

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  #223 (permalink)
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"Build Wealth while you learn how to Make Money"

uhhh yup.

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  #224 (permalink)
new york
 
 
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I think even the big short positions we all think need publicity are kept private (Jim Chanos said he only publicises 20% of trades, I guess the ones they need help with).

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  #225 (permalink)
Bucharest
 
 
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There is no holly grail per se but there are certain tricks you learn with experience that come very close to it, unfortunately they too cannot eliminate losers.

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Rustic View Post
There is no holly grail per se but there are certain tricks you learn with experience that come very close to it, unfortunately they too cannot eliminate losers.

There's no holy grail per se depends on your definition.
Why would you want to eliminate losers ? That's like being a Madoff.
The tricks that you learn with experience will then make YOU the holy grail.
There may not be a Holy Grail per se but maybe there are lots of holy grails.

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  #227 (permalink)
Bucharest
 
 
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Aurac View Post
There's no holy grail per se depends on your definition.
Why would you want to eliminate losers ? That's like being a Madoff.
The tricks that you learn with experience will then make YOU the holy grail.
There may not be a Holy Grail per se but maybe there are lots of holy grails.

my point exactly!

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Just follow any futures chart for 30 days after market.
Mark and document the pivots. Figure out if you could anticipate these pivots on live market.
Try it in SIM ....and repeat till you have success....then trade live.....and face the devils in the mind.....
the first part (documenting and SIM trading) takes longer but is relatively easy(of course you need strong basics in support/resistance ...supply demand .trend lines....patterns etc.)...but the second part is a killer....my 2 c. I am struck in second part....SIM some days looks easy....don't know what happens when trading live....

You can practise your skills all day long, but it's comparatively easy to get better at playing. The hard thing is to get better at winning--anonymous
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  #229 (permalink)
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
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At the top of each page of this topic is the original OP question: "Would you share your Holy Grail?"

and not what is the Holy Grail?

But I can now put an end to all of this by linking to THE Holy Grail:


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  #230 (permalink)
Cambridge, Cambridgeshire
 
 
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I honestly don't get why these questions even exist. We all know there is no Holy Grail, and frankly, anyone who has met many aspiring traders will know that even if such a thing existed, most people wouldn't actually follow it correctly. We have oodles of accounts of people being given systems that they can't work because it doesn't fit their trading style, or they self-sabotage.

Trading is simple, but not easy. That's the aphorism I hear all the time. And it's true. My method is a piece of piss (not sure where people come from saying opportunities are lacking, or you need to outbrain Ph.Ds working for Bobby Axelrod) and the expectancy from it won't be going away without markets literally failing in how they operate. You don't compete with the big boys, you latch on to them like a remora. Of course, if you're going to try and scalp in a post-HFT world, you're going to have a bad time. Swing trading intraday? It's an ATM if you have any nous about you. Took me 2.5 years of trading financial markets, and several months trading sports markets, to figure the whole market movement thing out, but there you go. Cost of doing business.

I've also even given out exactly how I trade in one of the (now three) posts I've made on here. So, in answer to the question, yeah, I guess I would, and already have. And it changes nothing.

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smh

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