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risk trading internet outage liability LLC
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risk trading internet outage liability LLC

  #21 (permalink)
Administrator: Retired Backtester
 Vendor: speedytradingservers.com 
Rennes France
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
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ziebarf View Post
I was one of the lucky few that got plowed by this outage. I was only trading 1 contract, and it was only a few points, but it was still frustrating. The biggest bother is that I called my broker and order desk maybe 30 times, neither answered. But thats what I get for not doing my orders OCO.

Your OCO are managed by your platform, not by the exchange, so it wouldn't have change anything here, imho.

Success requires no deodorant! (Sun Tzu)
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  #22 (permalink)
Elite Member
Berlin, Europe
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
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sam028 View Post
The orders reside on Interactive Brokers servers.

I can't imagine how scary could have been this, down for minutes, impossible to close position by phone, etc.
I'm using IB, like @Fat Tails, and sometimes I'm not happy with them because of the feed quality, the bad Ninja integration, the high margins, the commissions which could be lower, etc, etc, but I never had an issue like this one in years.
I won't comment the issue itself, it's not supposed to happen, never, unless a 9/11 event, and that was not the case here. Not serious at all, really not.
The easy way to avoid this situation, if people wants to keep a "cheap but maybe not so reliable" broker, is to have another broker, and quickly hedge the positions when things goes wrong.


I even had a quite positive experience with Interactive Brokers. There was a major failure of one of the transatlantic backbones, so I could no more access US internet servers via my habitual service provider. My backup mobile service provider had similar problems. The interesting point here: For European customers Interactive Brokers offers an access via Swiss servers (many European customers trade futures via EUREX, so a login to US server and than back to EUREX would not make sense). The Swiss servers are directly linked to their US operations. The result: During that internet failure, Interactive Brokers data and order execution worked as usual, as their lines were not affected. Took me then 30 min to call up my províder and change the routing to alternative backbones to be able to access US servers (not brokerage) again.

Although the servers of IB are extremely reliable (most failures I experienced were due to failure of the exchange trading systems), I doubt they are able to handle customer requests in the case of a major incidence. The service level they offer (phone and chat) is quite low. Summary: Excellent technology, but service should be improved.

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  #23 (permalink)
Elite Member
Europe
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, CQG Trader
Broker/Data: Mirus
Favorite Futures: currency futures, forex
 
Posts: 72 since Apr 2010
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PC or server or exchange


Hello,

thanks for your reply. Yes, this was the issue. Couldnīt do anything! Your idea with second broker is right, and I know about as I did already to check out as a strategy maybe (same as straddle and strangle with options - but only commissions then).

However, as I know exactly what you mean I can answer you from my position: you are right 100% ...if...IF you would know if your initial position is still running. The problem is that you donīt know - because of data and connection issue - so maybe you think you are long and you open the opposite position for ES maybe with TF. But it could be that the ES is already flattened. Then your position you made to hedge the other one itself is the problem. We can now of course think about this one with stoploss or not, or what distance of stoploss. But the actual problem still persists - you donīt know if you are flat or not.

Referring to the OCO for me itīs clear that I do not anymore brackets. To avoid what happend 8/16.

And referring the liability issue I do transfer all my assets to my wife. Do you know if in US maybe the marriage partner is liable for the dues of the other one??

"Freedom is just another word for nothing have to lose";-)






Fat Tails View Post
Hi Tony,

I apologize. I did not read your first post in depth, you already wrote that you tried to call your broker. If your broker's order execution system also relies on Zenfire, which I do not know, for sure they cannot do anything. Only way out of this might be an account with a second broker, and make sure that the second broker is not using Zenfire.

Following your post, I have tested my OCO/Interactive Brokers functionality with NT7 once again. It works as expected. If I cut off NinjaTrader or my computer, the OCO stilil resides with Interactive Brokers on their servers and is correctly executed.

However if Interactive Broker's systems are down, I will have the same problem as you had. And then I do not know what happens, if their servers will run again. Will the order still be executed? At what price? I do not know if they hold both legs of the OCO, the limit order and the stop order on the exchange. If this is the case, I might be first stopped out and then reverse the original position at the profit target. How would I know, whether I am long, short or flat?



Last edited by tony2604; August 21st, 2010 at 09:47 AM. Reason: typing error
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  #24 (permalink)
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tony2604 View Post

And referring the liability issue I do transfer all my assets to my wife. Do you know if in US maybe the marriage partner is liable for the dues of the other one??

Why not keep the assets and transfer the risk?

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  #25 (permalink)
Elite Member
Texas
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: nq, zf
 
Posts: 36 since Jul 2010
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sam028 View Post
Your OCO are managed by your platform, not by the exchange, so it wouldn't have change anything here, imho.

You are correct, but they don't offer a bracketing feature for the free version. My mistake.

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  #26 (permalink)
Elite Member
Europe
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, CQG Trader
Broker/Data: Mirus
Favorite Futures: currency futures, forex
 
Posts: 72 since Apr 2010
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liability LLC

Thanks for this information,

so the only possibility then is to transfer everything - except my guitar - to my wife. Or could it be that in US law my wife is liable for my losses??

"Freedom is just another word for nothing have to lose"




steve2222 View Post
See attached (page 11 I think), well at least Dorman (Mirus/Amp etc) requires a personal guarantee for an LLC account - so no protection there.


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