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Where in the world would you trade? Relocating or pursuing a semi-nomadic lifestyle.


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Where in the world would you trade? Relocating or pursuing a semi-nomadic lifestyle.

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  #1 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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Hi all,

The lure of being able to be geographically independent is a big part of what motivated me to pursue trading in the first place. This fall, it seems like I might have the chance to at least try that for a while or even longer if things turn out well.

My current lease will expire in July meaning I'll have to move anyway. I've also left my job to pursue trading full-time. So, with living expenses being what they are in Norway and also being a bit tired of living in this city at the moment, I've considered actually relocating to another country for a while.

I don't imagine moving around a lot due to the nature of our work, but perhaps staying in the same place for a month at a time or more permanently if life turns out to be good there.

Has anyone done anything similar? If so - any places to recommend or other advice that can be useful? I day trade US index futures, so time zone is an issue. Thailand seems to be popular for 'digital nomads', but the time zone might be a problem.

Considering the cost of living in Norway and a desire to reduce expenses while trying to make it as a full-time trader, it might even be an advantage to be living outside Norway for a while.

Thanks in advance for any pointers or advice.

Howard

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  #3 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
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Google search:
https://internationalliving.com/the-cheapest-places-in-the-world-to-live/

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 MiniP 
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Florida, great weather and in the right time zone


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 carofa 
Tallinn Estonia
 
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easy:

apply for a "NHR" status in Lisbon https://nonhabitualresidents.com/
with a "E-Residency" and Company in Estonia https://medium.com/e-residency-blog/heres-how-you-can-create-an-eu-company-with-eu-banking-anywhere-on-earth-cbba47386489


difficult :
I traveled to more than 100 Countries and my dream-country is Mauritius: 50 scuba diving center and best location for Offshore-banking . However it is difficult to get the Resident Permit.

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 carofa 
Tallinn Estonia
 
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check with Capital Gain Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax
please note that some countries like Malaysia or Singapore will see you as a trader!

I quote:
"For who does trading professionally (buying and selling securities frequently to obtain an income for living) as "traders", this will be considered income subject to personal income tax rates."

a nice project is maybe
https://www.fortgalt.com/
the first 3 to 6 years are tax free in Chile

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  #7 (permalink)
apac
Nearest City + State/Country
 
 
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Howard Roark View Post
I day trade US index futures

US east coast.

If it helps, the worst trading I every did was during the periods when I was relocating to other countries (I've had 4 major moves). And that was 100% mechanical system trading. Yet the instability still managed to screw up my game every-time. Next time, I'll just stop trading for 3 weeks.

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  #8 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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apac View Post
US east coast.

If it helps, the worst trading I every did was during the periods when I was relocating to other countries (I've had 4 major moves). And that was 100% mechanical system trading. Yet the instability still managed to screw up my game every-time. Next time, I'll just stop trading for 3 weeks.

Allright.

How about Tokyo, Japan?

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  #9 (permalink)
apac
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Tokyo is east Asia, and therefore it is worse for diverse liquid market trading than the more-so "west" Asian centers. Even a few hours west, eg, BGK, Sing makes a difference for US mkts: 9pm v.s. 1pm is a big difference relative to normal sleep habits. You can trade Bunds ok from 3pm local time. Cash JPY and AUD pairs via an ECN FX broker are ok choices if you can go without a centralised market place, meaningful B/O data and want to pay 20% of a 4 pip scalp in bro.

It is a compromise.

But if you want to mainly trade HSI, MJNK (and TSE stocks, maybe some ASX stocks in play). Maybe thin[er] CL?? Then Tokyo is one of the coolest and safest mega-cities you could ever live in. Great food, great lady prospects if you are single, great skiing via public transport. Sucks in summer.

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  #10 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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apac View Post
Tokyo is east Asia, and therefore it is worse for diverse liquid market trading than the more-so "west" Asian centers. Even a few hours west, eg, BGK, Sing makes a difference for US mkts: 9pm v.s. 1pm is a big difference relative to normal sleep habits. You can trade Bunds ok from 3pm local time. Cash JPY and AUD pairs via an ECN FX broker are ok choices if you can go without a centralised market place, meaningful B/O data and want to pay 20% of a 4 pip scalp in bro.

It is a compromise.

But if you want to mainly trade HSI, MJNK (and TSE stocks, maybe some ASX stocks in play). Maybe thin[er] CL?? Then Tokyo is one of the coolest and safest mega-cities you could ever live in.

Yes, that's the problem and also why Thailand while seemingly a favourite among 'digital nomads' and a great bang for the buck is not ideal for traders trading US markets.

I've specialized in the ES (e-mini S&P 500) and don't see that changing anytime soon, I'm afraid. I hear great things about HSI, but would expect a transition period for learning a new market.


apac View Post
Great food, great lady prospects if you are single, great skiing via public transport. Sucks in summer.

Are you a Western living there or a local?

On the subject of lady prospects, I actually heard it was hard for western males to get anywhere with the local ladies, but maybe that's not the case then...

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  #11 (permalink)
apac
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ES = east coast US, east-ish side. I'd live in Memphis or New Orleans, because I bet they'd be like nowhere [English speaking] I'd ever been... and would give my world view some broader perspective.


Howard Roark View Post

Are you a Western living there or a local?

On the subject of lady prospects, I actually heard it was hard for western males to get anywhere with the local ladies, but maybe that's not the case then...

I'm a westerner.

You've heard wrong about Japanese women But I do not want to be disrespectful or objectify. Some of my great friends are Japanese women, they are often excellent humans.

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  #12 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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apac View Post
ES = east coast US, east-ish side. I'd live in Memphis or New Orleans, because I bet they'd be like nowhere [English speaking] I'd ever been... and would give my world view some broader perspective.

I'm a westerner.

You've heard wrong about Japanese women But I do not want to be disrespectful or objectify. Some of my great friends are Japanese women, they are often excellent humans.

Cool.

I didn't perceive you to be disrespectful.

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  #13 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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The problem with the US might be cost-efficiency? I do need to look more into this and research it a little better (so much to research already - I tend to prioritize the markets). The advantage is the time zone since I trade the US. Would be very nice to have a bit more normal hours.

Japan and the rest of Asia have a sub-optimal time zone for my current operations day trading US index futures. I am looking to diversify later on. Just not right now.

I'm wondering if Argentina could be something to consider. Or parts of Southern America.

Europe seems to offer many opportunities also. Possibly Eastern Europe to get most bang for the buck.

Time zone is less than ideal, but usually the same as what I'm currently doing living in Norway. Trading day officially starts at 15:30 and usually needing 30-60 minutes of preparation. Done around 22:30 if I trade the full session.

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  #14 (permalink)
 pfsthib 
Sulphur, LA USA
 
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Has anyone lived and traded from Costa Rica?


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 carofa 
Tallinn Estonia
 
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pfsthib View Post
Has anyone lived and traded from Costa Rica?

the Problem with Latin America:

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  #16 (permalink)
 xplor79 
Buenos Aires, Argentina
 
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Howard Roark View Post

I'm wondering if Argentina could be something to consider. Or parts of Southern America.

Hi there,
I live here in Argentina (for now).
It has a lot of good things: the capital city is beautiful, the weather is quite good, no earthquakes or tsunamis.... and yes, the time-zone factor.
But we do have a quite unstable economy. Right now is a good moment to come here and live with foreign currency (it was quite expensive a few years ago). And we have elections in the months ahead (and it's not looking good...)

Feel free to ask me anything.
Cheers!

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  #17 (permalink)
gedward3
Hong Kong
 
 
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Im living in Malaysia but not trading but have a job.

Kuala Lumpur is a great city with great internet speeds. You can find apartments for USD400 per month and the food is dirt cheap and good. Health insurance costs US2-300 per year for 1 person i pay US1000 for a family and all the doctors are educated in the US, Canada or the UK. Great place to live. People mention Thailand but thats gone expensive with the strong Bhat and with all the digital nomads that have moved there. Plus every Thai sees you as someone they will rip you off from Farang prices to cab drivers and landlords. Pretty much anyone sees you as fair game. Plus its busy as hell and when its burning season say goodbye to your lungs and clean air.

Ged

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 pfsthib 
Sulphur, LA USA
 
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gedward3 View Post
Im living in Malaysia but not trading but have a job.



Kuala Lumpur is a great city with great internet speeds. You can find apartments for USD400 per month and the food is dirt cheap and good. Health insurance costs US2-300 per year for 1 person i pay US1000 for a family and all the doctors are educated in the US, Canada or the UK. Great place to live. People mention Thailand but thats gone expensive with the strong Bhat and with all the digital nomads that have moved there. Plus every Thai sees you as someone they will rip you off from Farang prices to cab drivers and landlords. Pretty much anyone sees you as fair game. Plus its busy as hell and when its burning season say goodbye to your lungs and clean air.



Ged



That’s good to know I will put it on my list


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  #19 (permalink)
 SMCJB 
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Howard Roark View Post
The problem with the US might be cost-efficiency? I do need to look more into this and research it a little better (so much to research already - I tend to prioritize the markets). The advantage is the time zone since I trade the US. Would be very nice to have a bit more normal hours.

I think you will find that places like Florida (and Texas) are cheap compared to Western Europe (and NY, the Northeast and California) and are still highly developed western countries and have extremely favorable tax environments.
The two big problems with the US are
a) Visa
b) Medical Insurance/Coverage

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  #20 (permalink)
 artemiso 
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Personally I felt trading the European session from Tokyo gave me the most daylight, meaningful things to do during the day, and quality of life. U.S. east coast is OK but you get cooped up at your desk through most part of the daylight and the quality of life is pretty bad in most parts of the U.S.

Hong Kong and Singapore have the same time zone advantage as Tokyo, great tax rates, food and quality of life, but housing is expensive there. They would be in my 2nd favorite tier.

For a good deal, if most of your income is in EUR or USD, then Riga and Lisbon all have decent infrastructure and quality of life. Krakow can be even cheaper but the air pollution is like Beijing. Zurich, Moscow and St Petersburg are similar if not slightly better in things to do except more expensive. These are all probably in my 3rd tier.

I'd also consider Amsterdam and Shanghai.

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  #21 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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xplor79 View Post
Hi there,
I live here in Argentina (for now).
It has a lot of good things: the capital city is beautiful, the weather is quite good, no earthquakes or tsunamis.... and yes, the time-zone factor.
But we do have a quite unstable economy. Right now is a good moment to come here and live with foreign currency (it was quite expensive a few years ago). And we have elections in the months ahead (and it's not looking good...)

Feel free to ask me anything.
Cheers!

Interesting.

Are you a local resident or a foreigner living there?

What would an approximate budget be for a month of living expenses?

Thanks.

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  #22 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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gedward3 View Post
Im living in Malaysia but not trading but have a job.

Kuala Lumpur is a great city with great internet speeds. You can find apartments for USD400 per month and the food is dirt cheap and good. Health insurance costs US2-300 per year for 1 person i pay US1000 for a family and all the doctors are educated in the US, Canada or the UK. Great place to live. People mention Thailand but thats gone expensive with the strong Bhat and with all the digital nomads that have moved there. Plus every Thai sees you as someone they will rip you off from Farang prices to cab drivers and landlords. Pretty much anyone sees you as fair game. Plus its busy as hell and when its burning season say goodbye to your lungs and clean air.

Ged

Sounds good.

Are you a local resident or foreigner living there?

Definitely sounds like something to consider. Thanks.

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  #23 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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SMCJB View Post
I think you will find that places like Florida (and Texas) are cheap compared to Western Europe (and NY, the Northeast and California) and are still highly developed western countries and have extremely favorable tax environments.
The two big problems with the US are
a) Visa
b) Medical Insurance/Coverage

Thanks for the heads up. Any specific places to look for in those states?

I will probably stay on a 3 month tourist visum regardless of where I go. Should I want to stay longer - I suppose I can just travel out of the country and back in.

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  #24 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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artemiso View Post
Personally I felt trading the European session from Tokyo gave me the most daylight, meaningful things to do during the day, and quality of life. U.S. east coast is OK but you get cooped up at your desk through most part of the daylight and the quality of life is pretty bad in most parts of the U.S.

Hong Kong and Singapore have the same time zone advantage as Tokyo, great tax rates, food and quality of life, but housing is expensive there. They would be in my 2nd favorite tier.

For a good deal, if most of your income is in EUR or USD, then Riga and Lisbon all have decent infrastructure and quality of life. Krakow can be even cheaper but the air pollution is like Beijing. Zurich, Moscow and St Petersburg are similar if not slightly better in things to do except more expensive. These are all probably in my 3rd tier.

I'd also consider Amsterdam and Shanghai.

Nice!

Maybe it's because I never been there, but Tokyo strikes me as a place I'd love to visit, but less certain if I'd like to stay there long term? Also - isn't it quite expensive?

With time zone - doesn't US session mean trading during the night?

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  #25 (permalink)
Howard Roark
Oslo Norway
 
 
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I need to start looking into this seriously now. I managed to extend my lease where I currently live, but it's a short resignation period so that's not a problem. I am in a long term relationship now, so that's blocking my plans a bit. But I'm considering doing it anyway.

I've been a lot to Spain and always felt at home there. So I'm considering looking into that. Either the mainland or even Gran Canaria or some of the other islands.

Anyone have any input there?

Lately, I'm also hearing good things about Budapest.

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  #26 (permalink)
 xplor79 
Buenos Aires, Argentina
 
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Howard Roark View Post
Interesting.

Are you a local resident or a foreigner living there?

What would an approximate budget be for a month of living expenses?

Thanks.

Hi!
I´m a local resident.
Of course it depends on your lifestyle, but I would say that you can have a pretty decent one with 1.000/1.200 USD per month.

Let me know if you have any other question!

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 SMCJB 
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artemiso View Post
Zurich

I have no experience with the other cities you mentioned but Zurich is gorgeous but expensive!

SMCJB View Post
I think you will find that places like Florida (and Texas) are cheap compared to Western Europe (and NY, the Northeast and California) and are still highly developed western countries and have extremely favorable tax environments.
The two big problems with the US are
a) Visa
b) Medical Insurance/Coverage


Howard Roark View Post
Thanks for the heads up. Any specific places to look for in those states?

I will probably stay on a 3 month tourist visum regardless of where I go. Should I want to stay longer - I suppose I can just travel out of the country and back in.

The leaving and re-entering thing is completely legal and I know people who have done it although not in the last several years, so they have changed their attitudes recently. Florida and Texas are big states with very different options. Houston for example is the 4th largest city in the US, is very international, very diverse and pretty progressive. It's great in the winter, but the summer climate is oppressive! Also you can't do anything without a car. If your a big city person you'd probably like it, if your not though you'd probably hate it. You don't have to go far outside the city though before you start seeing gun racks on pick up trucks and meeting a very different cross section or people. It all depends what you are looking for.

Howard Roark
I am in a long term relationship now, so that's blocking my plans a bit.

Ahhh yes it probably is! For what it's worth I ended up in Houston (from London) because of a long term (long distance) relationship!

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 artemiso 
New York, NY
 
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Howard Roark View Post
Maybe it's because I never been there, but Tokyo strikes me as a place I'd love to visit, but less certain if I'd like to stay there long term? Also - isn't it quite expensive?

I consider the Tokyo Midtown complex to be the best place to live in the city. Monthly rent for a 1 BR in that complex is about 5.3k EUR.

By comparison, I consider One57, Columbus Circle and Hudson Yards to be the best spots in NYC depending on where you spend most of your time, but these three are about 6.8-9.8k EUR for about the same floor area.

Assuming linearity, I'd say the cost of living in Tokyo is about 63% of NYC.

You can have 2x better food in Tokyo daily for 1/4 the budget in NYC.


Howard Roark View Post
With time zone - doesn't US session mean trading during the night?

Yes, you'll have more of a life trading European session (e.g. spot FX) from Asia.


Howard Roark View Post
Lately, I'm also hearing good things about Budapest.

What would be your language of choice in Budapest? Among all of the European countries I've been to, Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy and (a little better) Estonia were the most difficult to integrate into as an English speaker, in improving order.

This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the percentage of population who can speak a 2nd language. Portugal and Lithuania have a low penetration of English speakers but the locals there are incredibly welcoming to outsiders.


SMCJB View Post
I have no experience with the other cities you mentioned but Zurich is gorgeous but expensive!

Agreed.

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  #29 (permalink)
Howard Roark
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SMCJB View Post
Ahhh yes it probably is! For what it's worth I ended up in Houston (from London) because of a long term (long distance) relationship!

Tends to work that way, I guess. : )

I have a long term girlfriend here in Oslo and she's tied to this city for a while now. Being able to relocate was part of my motivation to become a trader and now that I can, I'm suddenly tied down. But I'm considering doing it anyway...

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Howard Roark
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artemiso View Post
I consider the Tokyo Midtown complex to be the best place to live in the city. Monthly rent for a 1 BR in that complex is about 5.3k EUR.

By comparison, I consider One57, Columbus Circle and Hudson Yards to be the best spots in NYC depending on where you spend most of your time, but these three are about 6.8-9.8k EUR for about the same floor area.

Assuming linearity, I'd say the cost of living in Tokyo is about 63% of NYC.

You can have 2x better food in Tokyo daily for 1/4 the budget in NYC.

In other words - fairly expensive?



artemiso View Post
What would be your language of choice in Budapest? Among all of the European countries I've been to, Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy and (a little better) Estonia were the most difficult to integrate into as an English speaker, in improving order.

This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the percentage of population who can speak a 2nd language. Portugal and Lithuania have a low penetration of English speakers but the locals there are incredibly welcoming to outsiders.

Agreed.

English?

Seems like you've been around a bit. If I were to learn a new language - I'm most motivated to learn Spanish or Italian. For Eastern Europe, I was hoping I could get by on English. But as you suggest, I've heard it can be challenging. In fact, it's a big challenge in certain parts of Spain as well (typically once you stray off the tourist tracks).

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 artemiso 
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Howard Roark View Post
In other words - fairly expensive?

IDK I'd consider 62% of NYC to be really cheap. Depends on what you're after.


Howard Roark View Post
English?

Seems like you've been around a bit. If I were to learn a new language - I'm most motivated to learn Spanish or Italian. For Eastern Europe, I was hoping I could get by on English. But as you suggest, I've heard it can be challenging. In fact, it's a big challenge in certain parts of Spain as well (typically once you stray off the tourist tracks).

Yes agreed regarding Spain.

To be fair, I've been mostly to the capital cities, but I've visited nearly every country in Europe.

I think Poland is a great place to be for if you're planning to get by with mostly English. Try it out.

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