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Learn volume profile guide

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  #1 (permalink)
Redcycle
stockholm
 
 
Posts: 11 since Oct 2018
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Hello guys, iam new here but found this website througt google

Iam trying to learn volume profile, and have googled around massve amount of time, but still find it very hard.

Ive looked 4-5 webinars with futurestrader71, but found it very hard to understand, he talks about different tick charts, real trading houers vs others, and have very messy charts in my eyes, iam wondering if you have any place to start from witch cover the basics little more.

I know what everything is and means, like VAH, VPOC, different shapes of profiles, but thats it, and I cant understand how to apply it to trading, since someones says that VPOC act as S/R, while others says that low volume node acts like S/R, and LVN and VPOC is each others opposite.

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  #3 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
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Redcycle View Post
Hello guys, iam new here but found this website througt google

Iam trying to learn volume profile, and have googled around massve amount of time, but still find it very hard.

Ive looked 4-5 webinars with futurestrader71, but found it very hard to understand, he talks about different tick charts, real trading houers vs others, and have very messy charts in my eyes, iam wondering if you have any place to start from witch cover the basics little more.

I know what everything is and means, like VAH, VPOC, different shapes of profiles, but thats it, and I cant understand how to apply it to trading, since someones says that VPOC act as S/R, while others says that low volume node acts like S/R, and LVN and VPOC is each others opposite.

Hi,

This site offers some useful information (not all free though) regarding volume profiling and how to use it to develop an edge and a play book. I am not a member or have any affiliation and never subscribed to their formation but i have seen some of their videos and weekly discussions and i am confident these guys know what they are talking about.

https://www.tradewithprofile.com/

Good luck in your search. I know it is not easy to find valuable info as many make volume profiling too complex to derive any form of actionable plan.

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  #4 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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Redcycle View Post
Ive looked 4-5 webinars with futurestrader71, but found it very hard to understand, he talks about different tick charts, real trading houers vs others.........

I know what everything is and means, like VAH, VPOC, different shapes of profiles, but thats it, and I cant understand how to apply it to trading, since someones says that VPOC act as S/R, while others says that low volume node acts like S/R, and LVN and VPOC is each others opposite.

Hi
Just briefly looking at these points:

Volume profile records the amount of volume that trades at that price level, therefore what type of chart you use, tick chart, time chart or no chart has no influence on the volume profile so just use what you like.

You say you are interested in the ES. The ES is a derivative of the S&P500 stock exchange which trades regular stock market hours only (RTH - 9:30am-4:00pm Eastern Time), and opens and closes at those times. The futures market trades 23 hours per day (ETH), but the vast majority of the volume is traded during the regular hours with the cash stock market so people just simplify and watch those hours and quite often exclude the non RTH hours form their profiles on the charts.

Think about what a High Volume Node or Low Volume Node actually means rather than whether something is support or resistance or not.
If looking at today's/yesterday's/the week's whatever volume profile, if you have an LVN that means that price spent very little time there, or more accurately very little volume traded there, because price moved away from that area quickly.
The opposite is where you have an HVN which means a lot of volume traded in that area and price was comfortable there. The market is an auction, price goes down until it finds buyers to stop it going down and rises with aggressive buyers until it finds people happy to sell at those prices. Two sided trade happens and causes HVNs when buyers and sellers are comfortable trading at a price level.
Therefore price tends to move through or get rejected quickly at earlier LVN areas where as earlier HVN areas tend to attract volume because people were happy there before.
So one may fade a previous LVN area if price moves there and volume slows down and the momentum pressure drops off, and target price coming back into the middle of range again at the HVN.
Or once an HVN has formed and price has consolidated with lots of people are both long and short then there are enough people who are going to need to get out of their shorts by buying if the market starts to push up out of consolidation with conviction and those people realise they are positioned on the wrong side at least in the present short term.

Value areas I tend to ignore. They just mean that 70% percent of the volume traded in that range but that area for today for example could cover a double distribution (one HVN area formed, price dropped out then found buyers and built a second HVN separated by the LVN). The fact that the value area may include that whole area is irrelevant as to how volume trades at the different points. Not to mention the fact that 70% is just a user defined number. 68% is one standard deviation but so what.

So general rules of thumb:
HVN - price volume was comfortable in this area with two sided trade.
LVN - price volume was uncomfortable in this area and moved through it quickly or was rejected away from this area quickly.

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  #5 (permalink)
 RDK91 
Antwerp
 
 
Posts: 454 since Jun 2016

I have not much experience trading with volume and volume profile, however if i remember correctly Jigsaw has plenty of webinars on their website and on Youtube about this subject!




Ps; For everyone reading this: A like/thanks to my original post in the link below would be very much appreciated since i can win a price with it!

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  #6 (permalink)
Redcycle
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Posts: 11 since Oct 2018
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matthew28 View Post
Hi
Just briefly looking at these points:

Volume profile records the amount of volume that trades at that price level, therefore what type of chart you use, tick chart, time chart or no chart has no influence on the volume profile so just use what you like.

You say you are interested in the ES. The ES is a derivative of the S&P500 stock exchange which trades regular stock market hours only (RTH - 9:30am-4:00pm Eastern Time), and opens and closes at those times. The futures market trades 23 hours per day (ETH), but the vast majority of the volume is traded during the regular hours with the cash stock market so people just simplify and watch those hours and quite often exclude the non RTH hours form their profiles on the charts.

Think about what a High Volume Node or Low Volume Node actually means rather than whether something is support or resistance or not.
If looking at today's/yesterday's/the week's whatever volume profile, if you have an LVN that means that price spent very little time there, or more accurately very little volume traded there, because price moved away from that area quickly.
The opposite is where you have an HVN which means a lot of volume traded in that area and price was comfortable there. The market is an auction, price goes down until it finds buyers to stop it going down and rises with aggressive buyers until it finds people happy to sell at those prices. Two sided trade happens and causes HVNs when buyers and sellers are comfortable trading at a price level.
Therefore price tends to move through or get rejected quickly at earlier LVN areas where as earlier HVN areas tend to attract volume because people were happy there before.
So one may fade a previous LVN area if price moves there and volume slows down and the momentum pressure drops off, and target price coming back into the middle of range again at the HVN.
Or once an HVN has formed and price has consolidated with lots of people are both long and short then there are enough people who are going to need to get out of their shorts by buying if the market starts to push up out of consolidation with conviction and those people realise they are positioned on the wrong side at least in the present short term.

Value areas I tend to ignore. They just mean that 70% percent of the volume traded in that range but that area for today for example could cover a double distribution (one HVN area formed, price dropped out then found buyers and built a second HVN separated by the LVN). The fact that the value area may include that whole area is irrelevant as to how volume trades at the different points. Not to mention the fact that 70% is just a user defined number. 68% is one standard deviation but so what.

So general rules of thumb:
HVN - price volume was comfortable in this area with two sided trade.
LVN - price volume was uncomfortable in this area and moved through it quickly or was rejected away from this area quickly.


Hello, Thanks for an amazing post, you seem to have very good knowledge about volume profile,

what you say seems very logical, and maybe I start to understand why I have had so hard to understand, cause you saying pretty similiar about LVN, that it can either act as support, or price breaks fast throught it


And how about all other stuff, like I see futuretrade71 have both daily profiles, and then he have the composite, also there, how to know how much to zoom out? 1yrs of trading range give xxx composite, but if I zoom out so I can see 3 yrs of data, the composite will look totaly different,

and sometimes he have additional profiles thats cpvers covers like 5-10 sessions, so for me, its very hard to understand what to look for or even where to start.

Where did you learn the way you look at profiles? And I hope I dont break any forum rules, but would you want to coach me for some money on skype or something?

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  #7 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
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Redcycle View Post
And how about all other stuff, like I see futuretrade71 have both daily profiles, and then he have the composite, also there, how to know how much to zoom out? 1yrs of trading range give xxx composite, but if I zoom out so I can see 3 yrs of data, the composite will look totaly different,

and sometimes he have additional profiles thats cpvers covers like 5-10 sessions, so for me, its very hard to understand what to look for or even where to start.

Where did you learn the way you look at profiles? And I hope I dont break any forum rules, but would you want to coach me for some money on skype or something?

Thanks for the kind words.
I don't think that is breaking any forum rules but I won't accept the offer because I am not at the moment trading consistently profitably, hence my choosing "Beginner" as my futures experience level despite having been interested in this stuff and tried lots of things/learned a lot over that time. Related to that, and this isn't meant to sound condescending, but don't just accept any trading advice you receive without really testing it out yourself. I think ideas on money management or general trading ideas are interesting topics but be wary of anybody who makes definitive statements about what works in trading and what doesn't, how successful they are etc. Just because somebody claims there futures experience to be "Master" or "Advanced" doesn't actually appear to mean they are making consistent profits, or any seemingly, trading futures.

So back to the question. I recall FT71 saying his composite profile isn't a set number of days but runs from the last prominent swing. So on the Daily chart below is could be from the low swing to the recent swing high (green arrow). This can be subjective though depending on what you, or he, considers the most relevant swing. I chose the YM for instance because I thought it made a cleaner example and looking at the ES I wasn't sure what to use. He also creates little composite profiles for when the market is consolidating (orange box). In this instance I think Value Area might be useful as one might decide that the market is in an uptrend and it would be good for example to try for long trades at the bottom of value looking for price to come back to the top, or breakout and continue higher.




FT71 has huge amounts of stuff on his charts like you say, along with sector graphs, different timeframes, Bookmap Heatmap for orderflow information etc. When you listen to him it sounds easy: wait for a two deviation move showing commitment, wait for a pullback near the mid, enter and target that recent high/low again. There are lots of journals here where people in the past have joined Stage5, downloaded his templates all ready to go and their morning analysis is comprehensive but they don't make money. The same with Jim Dalton and his Market Profile intensive courses. Good premarket prep and analysis but no profit. Or "The Scalper's Journal/Journey" whatever thread that was very popular last year creating lots of followers who also didn't last long; or journals after people have attended a John Grady "No BS Daytrading" course....The list could go on and on. Good analysis and understanding but they can't: sit on their hands and wait for their trade, follow their method but instead decide things aren't working so add in some new indicator to try to reduce the number of losses, don't follow their rules, have no discipline etc etc.

The idea of trading sounds really easy, you either buy or sell and that's it, but then as you are starting to find it potentially gets exponentially more complicated with all the choices: different markets to trade - equity indexes are different to the energies, treasuries. Are you: long-term trend following, swing trading, daytrading. A lot of the people creating their journals may have what it takes to succeed but give up too soon, or try to get rich quick and blow up, or are trying to trade a method/instrument that doesn't suit them just because it is very popular on whatever forum they are reading, and so on.

Think about those questions (you probably already have), research some methodology and then pick something that makes sense to you and stick with it and give yourself some time. I tend to think in practical terms three things are important: where you want to trade, deciding whether you want to be long or short, and when you want to enter and exit. So for example Volume profile could help with the first, I think Market Profile could help with the first and second (it provides time and direction context as well as the HVN/LVN (Point of Control (POC)/Single Prints).
So using a previous example: price moves up to the top of a volume distribution which you have decided is your trade location, price tries to go through but the volume momentum dries up, trade back in to range; or volume and momentum increase as it approaches the LVN and you enter before the break and cover if momentum volume dies without price getting through. (I prefer Low Volume Area as LVN suggests a dip between two HVNs whereas an acceleration in to a Low Volume Area could be a break out to new prices for the day).
Or conversely as a scalper you might decide you only want to trade inside the value area where price is comfortable and there is two sided trade, and therefore avoid the low volume extremes of range where price could run away from you quickly leading to a larger loss than is acceptable risk.

That is before you start considering money management and trading psychology too. (Not just your own control and adherence to your rules which is discussed a lot, but also an empathy for what your competitors/the people who want to sell when you are looking to buy, are thinking/feeling, are they about to give up or just pausing to build a position before continuing, what will they do if they push for a breakout and canít get price through the level etc).

Iíve have gone too far off topic. If you read to the end I hope it is food for thought.

Trading, ideally structured, is a vehicle for expanding consciousness, not damaging it. - Brett Steenbarger
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Redcycle
stockholm
 
 
Posts: 11 since Oct 2018
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matthew28 View Post
Thanks for the kind words.
I don't think that is breaking any forum rules but I won't accept the offer because I am not at the moment trading consistently profitably, hence my choosing "Beginner" as my futures experience level despite having been interested in this stuff and tried lots of things/learned a lot over that time. Related to that, and this isn't meant to sound condescending, but don't just accept any trading advice you receive without really testing it out yourself. I think ideas on money management or general trading ideas are interesting topics but be wary of anybody who makes definitive statements about what works in trading and what doesn't, how successful they are etc. Just because somebody claims there futures experience to be "Master" or "Advanced" doesn't actually appear to mean they are making consistent profits, or any seemingly, trading futures.

So back to the question. I recall FT71 saying his composite profile isn't a set number of days but runs from the last prominent swing. So on the Daily chart below is could be from the low swing to the recent swing high (green arrow). This can be subjective though depending on what you, or he, considers the most relevant swing. I chose the YM for instance because I thought it made a cleaner example and looking at the ES I wasn't sure what to use. He also creates little composite profiles for when the market is consolidating (orange box). In this instance I think Value Area might be useful as one might decide that the market is in an uptrend and it would be good for example to try for long trades at the bottom of value looking for price to come back to the top, or breakout and continue higher.




FT71 has huge amounts of stuff on his charts like you say, along with sector graphs, different timeframes, Bookmap Heatmap for orderflow information etc. When you listen to him it sounds easy: wait for a two deviation move showing commitment, wait for a pullback near the mid, enter and target that recent high/low again. There are lots of journals here where people in the past have joined Stage5, downloaded his templates all ready to go and their morning analysis is comprehensive but they don't make money. The same with Jim Dalton and his Market Profile intensive courses. Good premarket prep and analysis but no profit. Or "The Scalper's Journal/Journey" whatever thread that was very popular last year creating lots of followers who also didn't last long; or journals after people have attended a John Grady "No BS Daytrading" course....The list could go on and on. Good analysis and understanding but they can't: sit on their hands and wait for their trade, follow their method but instead decide things aren't working so add in some new indicator to try to reduce the number of losses, don't follow their rules, have no discipline etc etc.

The idea of trading sounds really easy, you either buy or sell and that's it, but then as you are starting to find it potentially gets exponentially more complicated with all the choices: different markets to trade - equity indexes are different to the energies, treasuries. Are you: long-term trend following, swing trading, daytrading. A lot of the people creating their journals may have what it takes to succeed but give up too soon, or try to get rich quick and blow up, or are trying to trade a method/instrument that doesn't suit them just because it is very popular on whatever forum they are reading, and so on.

Think about those questions (you probably already have), research some methodology and then pick something that makes sense to you and stick with it and give yourself some time. I tend to think in practical terms three things are important: where you want to trade, deciding whether you want to be long or short, and when you want to enter and exit. So for example Volume profile could help with the first, I think Market Profile could help with the first and second (it provides time and direction context as well as the HVN/LVN (Point of Control (POC)/Single Prints).
So using a previous example: price moves up to the top of a volume distribution which you have decided is your trade location, price tries to go through but the volume momentum dries up, trade back in to range; or volume and momentum increase as it approaches the LVN and you enter before the break and cover if momentum volume dies without price getting through. (I prefer Low Volume Area as LVN suggests a dip between two HVNs whereas an acceleration in to a Low Volume Area could be a break out to new prices for the day).
Or conversely as a scalper you might decide you only want to trade inside the value area where price is comfortable and there is two sided trade, and therefore avoid the low volume extremes of range where price could run away from you quickly leading to a larger loss than is acceptable risk.

That is before you start considering money management and trading psychology too. (Not just your own control and adherence to your rules which is discussed a lot, but also an empathy for what your competitors/the people who want to sell when you are looking to buy, are thinking/feeling, are they about to give up or just pausing to build a position before continuing, what will they do if they push for a breakout and canít get price through the level etc).

Iíve have gone too far off topic. If you read to the end I hope it is food for thought.


Wow mate, I dont even know what to say, what you write is absolute stunning.



You seem to have really good knowledge, but I totaly understand what you are saying, that I shouldn't trust anyone and everyone can seem like a PRO online. But Iam feeling that I need to start somewhere, and I think the biggest problem is since this krypto boom begun, there are alot of amateurs selling corses and using like MT4 volume profile, witch I dont even think is good data, and are EVERYWHERE on youtube, so iam having a really hard time to understand who really knows anything, and who just only talks, But I think this forum have really much potential, and guys like you who have studied futuretrader71, I know from a good soruce, knows what you talks about

The discipline you mentioned is very true, but thats my smallest problem, since ive traded with good result for a while, but my system have lost edge, even due 100% discipline, so iam trying to wider my views on trading strategys.


Iam not an elite member yet, would you recomend me to be it, to get accsess to " the scalpers " journal?


this is maybe a silly question, but If you could restart your learning curve and everything you know about volume profile, how would you do today?
And btw, after your post, I think I have started to understand futurestrades vidoes a little bit more, maybe I should just watch them on replay untill everything start to make sence?

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 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
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Redcycle View Post
You seem to have really good knowledge, but I totaly understand what you are saying, that I shouldn't trust anyone and everyone can seem like a PRO online. But Iam feeling that I need to start somewhere, and I think the biggest problem is since this krypto boom begun, there are alot of amateurs selling corses and using like MT4 volume profile, witch I dont even think is good data, and are EVERYWHERE on youtube, so iam having a really hard time to understand who really knows anything, and who just only talks, But I think this forum have really much potential, and guys like you who have studied futuretrader71, I know from a good soruce, knows what you talks about

The discipline you mentioned is very true, but thats my smallest problem, since ive traded with good result for a while, but my system have lost edge, even due 100% discipline, so iam trying to wider my views on trading strategys.


Iam not an elite member yet, would you recomend me to be it, to get accsess to " the scalpers " journal?


this is maybe a silly question, but If you could restart your learning curve and everything you know about volume profile, how would you do today?
And btw, after your post, I think I have started to understand futurestrades vidoes a little bit more, maybe I should just watch them on replay untill everything start to make sence?

I must admit that I always associate the MT4 platform with forex traders and the forex forums. I assume there must be micro size contracts available for Krypto currencies like there are with CFDs and spot forex markets or Oanda where you can trade contracts worth just a few cents. A beginner certainly couldn't be sold a course for trading krpto currencies using futures contracts because the exchange required account margins are huge.
I have no idea what MT4 is like these days or how it compares to other platforms I traditionally associate as futures platforms such as Ninjatrader, but I am not going to recommend platforms as they are a very personal choice.

You sound very keen on FT71. To be clear I haven't studied his methodology as such and don't use anything he uses regarding charts or indicators*. I have just watched a few of his webinars. He knows what he is talking about certainly but what he does is just one interpretation of the markets and selection of tools that he finds works for him. As you mentioned there are lots of people selling courses/ideas methods, a lot of which is probably really dodgy but there are always the odd person that is genuine, but my point being that they are all using different methods. I am reading an entertaining book called "what I learned losing a million dollars" by Jim Paul and Brendan Moynihan (spoiler alert - when your premise for the trade idea is invalidated then take your profit or loss and get out). In it he talks about all the research he did in to what methods big successful traders used, and he found that they were all different and they all contradicted each other: some scaled down in to losses to build a position others said that was account suicide; some recommended the diversification of products traded, while others insisted on product specialisation and so on. Different methods suit different trader personalities and opportunities.

Regarding Elite Membership, for $100 it is well worth it. There are lots of webinars worth watching (a few dozen FT71 ones), though admittedly most presenters like him, or John Grady at No BS Daytrading, or Pete at Jigsaw for instance tend to have them available on their sites too. (too much information overload if you're not careful though).There is the Elite Indicator download section (Not many for MT4, 48 indicators, compared to, 490 for Ninjatrader7), but you can lose yourself forever in there too looking for the perfect combination. And the Elite Journal section which has a few interesting reads. The Scalper's Journey thread is no longer active (just checked, last post September 17, It is 1980 pages and used to get many dozen posts a day), as the guy that started it and a few others got tired of the attention and the time they gave up helping people and being pestered.

Regarding how to learn everything I know about volume profile. There isn't that much to know in my opinion and I think you mentioned all the main points in your first post and I expanded on them in my posts, and that is it. Volume profile really isn't complicated. I think people tend to over complicate things because for the most part because trading is really hard for the majority of people and they can't understand why. Price can either go one way or the other but still they end up down money at the end of the day. Therefore people think there must be some information they are missing and complicate with additional indicators to try and find the Holy Grail that the winners are using. In reality I think people in general are better going the other way and simplifying so their decision making is reliant on as few factors as possible rather than needing lots of things to line up before taking a trade. And that is just the entries, the money is made on the exits.
Back to the point, you know enough about volume profile now so just starting watching it during the session times you intend to trade and get a feel for what happens (this is assuming you are daytrading). Different times of day and periods in a products cycle will suggest different methods. The ES now is moving in large moves. A couple of years back it could sit in a 5 tick range for an hour. Pete over at Jigsaw suggested in one of his webinars recently that he recommends to people to just sit and watch the market for two weeks, not live trading, not sim trading, just watching and noting down things that you notice and patterns of behaviour that you see repeat and think are actionable; and then build a trade strategy around that and then paper test/sim trade it. I would recommend screen recording too so you can replay areas of interest. BB Flashback Express is good, and free for the non-editable version of the program.

*As mentioned in the previous post, as I am classifying myself as a Beginner because I am not consistently profitable yet, I am happy talking trading ideas, but back away from making actual trading suggestions or methodology recommendations for all the reasons mentioned. But to pre-empt your probable question about what I do use, after me saying I don’t use any FT71 stuff, it is just todays’ volume profiles on three Jigsaw DOMs which show me order flow (when to trade) and a 30minute chart as a proxy for a 30 minute Market Profile chart (the platform doesn’t have Market Profile), showing me where to trade and giving me context for the direction I want to trade, and potential targets for the trade.

Trading, ideally structured, is a vehicle for expanding consciousness, not damaging it. - Brett Steenbarger
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