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An introduction with a few questions.

  #1 (permalink)
 Donnigan 
St. Louis, MO
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Trading: M6E
Posts: 48 since Apr 2018
Thanks Given: 43
Thanks Received: 170

Hey everyone, thanks for having me and thank you for creating and contributing to this newbie friendly community. In this post I wanted to give some background on my journey so far and ask a few questions. I apologize in advance if this post is too long winded.

Background
I'm a 27 year old college graduate with a degree in Media Studies. Currently I work as an independent contractor with complete control of my schedule. In January I opened a Robinhood account and deposited $1700 to get my feet wet in trading stocks. I focused on swing trading and made many mistakes such as averaging down on my losers and trying to trade penny stocks. After $700 in losses I decided to slow my horses and started paper trading on ToS. I ended up trying out a few different trading styles and found myself enjoying short-term intraday trading based on price action and momentum. Unfortunately with the PDT rule I'm not close to being able to day trade and that's when I discovered futures. After two months of paper trading ES on ToS & Trading Technologies platform I decided to fund an account with AMP for $1000 and went live this week.

As many of you could probably guess this did not go well. On my first day live I was able to trade my system effectively and secured $245 after commissions. My second day was going well until I got greedy. I had $545, but began overtrading until I was down $25 dollars, I ended up making 104 trades and ended with $725 profit, but then I was hit with $980 in commissions. In my naivety I didn't check my commissions from the previous session and realize I was paying $9.40 a round trip (I did end up getting my commissions down to 4.50 per round trip from here on out). I thought I could keep my cool with live money on the line, but I don't think any amount of paper trading could've prepare me for the roller coaster of emotions I experienced that day. I was revenge trading and pretty much threw my trading plan out of the window. I never want to put myself in that situation again and I consider myself lucky I didn't completely blow up my account. On day three I stuck to my system, but hit a series of losing trades and hit my loss limit of $300 for the day so I stopped. The loss didn't sting much because I was happy that I didn't trade outside of my system, respected my loss limit and avoided overtrading.

Revelations
I realized that my stop loss of 4 ticks was killing my account slowly, if it had been 8 ticks many of the trades I took would have gone in my favor. I also decided at the minimum I need $5000 before I attempt to live trade ES again. That would allow me to risk only 2% of my account and increase my odds of surviving a series of losing trades.

I decided I need to start a trading journal on this forum so that I can hold myself accountable and get invaluable guidance from people with more experience. I honestly feel like I've found my path and I'm determined to become a full-time trader even if takes 5+ years, I'm not an easily discouraged individual and I never shy away from a challenge.

Questions
1. Is $5000 a realistic account size to trade 1-2 ES contracts?

2. I chose Trading Technologies as my platform due to their easy to build workspace and their fast execution. However it costs $50 a month plus the $15 for CME, maybe I would be better off switching to Sierra Charts or trying a different platform supported by AMP. Is there a big difference between TT's data feed and CQG? What advantages does TT have over the other trading platforms and vice versa?

3. Is there an instrument better suited for beginners? I'm not married to ES and wouldn't mind trying something with a lower tick value so that I could continue to live trade while saving up to add to my account.

4. Should I just go back to sim-trading until I have more experience? I have mixed feelings about this and think a major part of improving as a trader is to actually have cash on the line so that I can get used to the anxiety associated with live trading.

5. Can I post my journal in the Elite members section or is that space reserved for the more skilled traders?

Thanks for reading! I look forward to contributing to this forum and growing with you all. Also I haven't spent a dime on any trading courses, but purchased the Elite membership with zero regrets. If anyone else is on the fence about upgrading to Elite just do it, the one time $100 fee makes this a no-brainer.

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  #3 (permalink)
 
xplorer's Avatar
 xplorer 
London UK
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
Posts: 5,944 since Sep 2015
Thanks Given: 15,447
Thanks Received: 15,291



Donnigan View Post

Questions
1. Is $5000 a realistic account size to trade 1-2 ES contracts?
There's certainly different views on the subject but most experienced traders would say that this amount equates to being undercapitalized for most futures products, unless you trade micro products which have a fraction of their equivalent mini- or standard product's tick value. I suggest you look up keywords like "recommended account size for beginners" or similar search phrases here on FIO. I would have given you some specific threads to look up but the site's search engine has just been upgraded and we're going through an adjustment period.


2. I chose Trading Technologies as my platform due to their easy to build workspace and their fast execution. However it costs $50 a month plus the $15 for CME, maybe I would be better off switching to Sierra Charts or trying a different platform supported by AMP. Is there a big difference between TT's data feed and CQG? What advantages does TT have over the other trading platforms and vice versa?
I can't comment, personally I have never used TT. Most people on FIO tend to use NinjaTrader. Personally I prefer CQG QTrader which is what I use. I find it fairly stable and reliable, especially when trading live. The monthly cost is comparable to what you pay.

3. Is there an instrument better suited for beginners? I'm not married to ES and wouldn't mind trying something with a lower tick value so that I could continue to live trade while saving up to add to my account.
There is really no market for beginners. Once you're in, you're competing with traders all over the world and this is definitely no gentleman's club - Having said that, there are some products such as the micro 6E (I think its product code is M6E - I could be wrong) that have a tick increment in the region of 1.25$, which is tiny. This may be more suitable and certainly less stressful for someone who is starting. That also translates in a more granular possibility of scaling in/out with multiple contracts which means you get used to do that early on. Ratio between commissions and tick value may be unfavourable though, I suggest you calculate whether it's worth it for you.

4. Should I just go back to sim-trading until I have more experience? I have mixed feelings about this and think a major part of improving as a trader is to actually have cash on the line so that I can get used to the anxiety associated with live trading.
Again, there are different schools of thought on this. If you are familiar with the concept of an edge, and if you believe you have one, my recommendation would be to take between 50-100 trades in SIM to validate your edge, and then attempt to move to live. The process is not as easy as it sounds and chances are you may be forced to go back to SIM a few times, but it's part of the process.

5. Can I post my journal in the Elite members section or is that space reserved for the more skilled traders?
Elite is just reserved for Elite members, since you are Elite you can freely post in there. The consensus is that you can find more valuable content in there simply because most experienced traders tend to post in there. Also, the other difference is search engines such as Google don't index Elite content outside of the forum.

Hi Donnigan and welcome

I'm sure you will soon realize FIO is quite the valuable resource to get input from other traders' experience. I think so at least.

What you have gone through in your introduction is what I would say most people trading futures go through. I sure as heck did go through that rollercoaster cycle.

I will give you my thoughts on the questions above, please do take them with a pinch of salt as they are just my opinions. I am sure others will be able to pitch in with their view as well.

I have put what I think in bold just above.

Again, welcome and good luck in your journey!

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  #4 (permalink)
 
Pariah Carey's Avatar
 Pariah Carey 
Memphis TN
Legendary E-mini dictator for life
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Thinkorswim
Broker: TDAmeritrade
Trading: Futures
Posts: 1,043 since Jan 2014
Thanks Given: 158
Thanks Received: 3,619

I think with just $5,000 you'll be nothing more than a speed bump in the es market. I personally wouldn't touch futures with less than 20+, and a lot of subject matter experts would agree. Maybe it's been done, I don't know. But the ones who can successfully trade a futures market on such a small account, with such small stops, are few and far between.

I second trading the M6e or 10,000 lot forex pairs (at a buck a pip, it's cheap).

You're probably ready to trade live with the money you have. You just got to go out and do it, and find your way. Best way to learn to swim is to just jump in the water. I'm not a big fan of simming, although I am using market replay in preparation to one day make a go of day trading futures.

There are a lot of very helpful people on this forum and a proverbial firehose of information. I recommend threads from Big Mike, tigertrader, and Inletcap in particular. Read them, learn, and take what you will. Back when all three were posting regularly a few years ago, this place was gold. Use the search function. It will take a little digging around but you'll know them when you find them.

Money make ya handsome
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  #5 (permalink)
 tpredictor 
North Carolina
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Trading: es
Posts: 644 since Nov 2011


Quoting 
1. Is $5000 a realistic account size to trade 1-2 ES contracts?

Yes. But, there are a couple caveats and catches. With only 5k, you need to be very precise with entries and you need to be a with a broker that allows day trading margins. As a general rule, I recommend at least 7k for systematic strategies. Most systematic strategies require min $500-$700 stop loss per trade in ES. So, the answer is yes but you have to have trained yourself and/or be willing to risk more then sound 3%-5% per day. If you haven't demonstrated it on the simulator then the answer is very unlikely. The problem is the leverage is so high that your entries have to be pin point accurate. You have to be optimized to the current markets.


Quoting 
4. Should I just go back to sim-trading until I have more experience? I have mixed feelings about this and think a major part of improving as a trader is to actually have cash on the line so that I can get used to the anxiety associated with live trading.

Yes you should. You should demonstrate you can trade with 5k first within whatever risk constraints you think are sound. You cannot afford to learn in the live with only 5k. You should try to document exactly what you are doing and setup your daily loss limit, position, etc limits. Sim trade on 5k account. Keep everything the same. You can also try multiple sim accounts to help with the learning process. You need a cut off or evaluation point too: you need a plan. I think 30-90 days of simulation training is optimal. You don't want to stay in the sim too long. But, you have to be realistic that if you can do this you are going to have to be one of the best. Anxiety is more of an effect of not being trained or confidence in your method.

1. Trade with 2 contracts max.
2. Risk max $700 per day. If loss > $500 and not in position, shut down for day.
3. Risk $350 per trade max.
4. Profit objective: $5000. Max DD: $4000.
5. Target 3-6 trades per day.
6. Journal every day pre and post market and keep stats on all trades.
7. Evaluate every 7 days and set goals.
8. Deadline/target date: 90 days. Re-evaluate in 90 days. Min trading days 15.
9. Any re-starts/resets/etc. reset the evaluation.
10. Take best trades within abilities while keeping risk as minimum as possible. (Why this statement? It means your stop loss per trade must be reasonable to win the trade and that the goal is not to try to trade optimally because that normally requires taking a very high risk per trade.)

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  #6 (permalink)
 iantg 
charlotte nc
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My Own System
Broker: Optimus
Trading: Emini (ES, YM, NQ, ect.)
Posts: 408 since Jan 2015
Thanks Given: 90
Thanks Received: 1,147

Hi Donnigan,

Welcome to the forum!

To your questions below:

1. Is 5K enough to trade the ES. I think most people will say no... but there are a few ways you can slow down your burn rate and get some real cash money trading experience. Keep your targets relatively small at first. Try trading the overnight session. It moves very slow, and doesn't move very far so you can get real cash trading experience, protect your cash as a function of the market not moving as much and it's like playing a video game on the easy level. (it moves very slow). Only scale to your second contract when you are ready. Don't over trade or revenge trade as you mentioned you did previously. . I think you can slow your burn rate down with 5K enough that it might be worth it for you. But I wouldn't recommend trading live at all until you have a definitive edge (I.E. A bet that you can make that wins over a large sample of tests)

2. Platform / Broker / Data Feed: I think you are a little high at 4.50 personally by about 50 cents to a dollar. CQG / Rhythmic are 2 of the more popular data feeds and they both work very well.

3. The ES has one of the largest dollar spreads at 12.50 so if you are working a limit order / market making strategy this is a very attractive feature, but if you are using market orders then the large dollar spread works against you significantly. Depending on your trading style you may want to switch to something like the YM which has smaller spreads and tick sizes. This is better suited to market orders but not as attractive to limit order traders obviously.

4. I believe you should SIM trade until you develop your edge and believe you have a quantifiable bet you can make with a high success rate. Until you have this, you are basically blindly gambling.

5. The advantage of the elite section is that this isn't visible to the general public, so this may encourage more sharing of the proverbial secret sauce between peers.


Best of luck!

Ian


Donnigan View Post
Hey everyone, thanks for having me and thank you for creating and contributing to this newbie friendly community. In this post I wanted to give some background on my journey so far and ask a few questions. I apologize in advance if this post is too long winded.

Background
I'm a 27 year old college graduate with a degree in Media Studies. Currently I work as an independent contractor with complete control of my schedule. In January I opened a Robinhood account and deposited $1700 to get my feet wet in trading stocks. I focused on swing trading and made many mistakes such as averaging down on my losers and trying to trade penny stocks. After $700 in losses I decided to slow my horses and started paper trading on ToS. I ended up trying out a few different trading styles and found myself enjoying short-term intraday trading based on price action and momentum. Unfortunately with the PDT rule I'm not close to being able to day trade and that's when I discovered futures. After two months of paper trading ES on ToS & Trading Technologies platform I decided to fund an account with AMP for $1000 and went live this week.

As many of you could probably guess this did not go well. On my first day live I was able to trade my system effectively and secured $245 after commissions. My second day was going well until I got greedy. I had $545, but began overtrading until I was down $25 dollars, I ended up making 104 trades and ended with $725 profit, but then I was hit with $980 in commissions. In my naivety I didn't check my commissions from the previous session and realize I was paying $9.40 a round trip (I did end up getting my commissions down to 4.50 per round trip from here on out). I thought I could keep my cool with live money on the line, but I don't think any amount of paper trading could've prepare me for the roller coaster of emotions I experienced that day. I was revenge trading and pretty much threw my trading plan out of the window. I never want to put myself in that situation again and I consider myself lucky I didn't completely blow up my account. On day three I stuck to my system, but hit a series of losing trades and hit my loss limit of $300 for the day so I stopped. The loss didn't sting much because I was happy that I didn't trade outside of my system, respected my loss limit and avoided overtrading.

Revelations
I realized that my stop loss of 4 ticks was killing my account slowly, if it had been 8 ticks many of the trades I took would have gone in my favor. I also decided at the minimum I need $5000 before I attempt to live trade ES again. That would allow me to risk only 2% of my account and increase my odds of surviving a series of losing trades.

I decided I need to start a trading journal on this forum so that I can hold myself accountable and get invaluable guidance from people with more experience. I honestly feel like I've found my path and I'm determined to become a full-time trader even if takes 5+ years, I'm not an easily discouraged individual and I never shy away from a challenge.

Questions
1. Is $5000 a realistic account size to trade 1-2 ES contracts?

2. I chose Trading Technologies as my platform due to their easy to build workspace and their fast execution. However it costs $50 a month plus the $15 for CME, maybe I would be better off switching to Sierra Charts or trying a different platform supported by AMP. Is there a big difference between TT's data feed and CQG? What advantages does TT have over the other trading platforms and vice versa?

3. Is there an instrument better suited for beginners? I'm not married to ES and wouldn't mind trying something with a lower tick value so that I could continue to live trade while saving up to add to my account.

4. Should I just go back to sim-trading until I have more experience? I have mixed feelings about this and think a major part of improving as a trader is to actually have cash on the line so that I can get used to the anxiety associated with live trading.

5. Can I post my journal in the Elite members section or is that space reserved for the more skilled traders?

Thanks for reading! I look forward to contributing to this forum and growing with you all. Also I haven't spent a dime on any trading courses, but purchased the Elite membership with zero regrets. If anyone else is on the fence about upgrading to Elite just do it, the one time $100 fee makes this a no-brainer.


In the analytical world there is no such thing as art, there is only the science you know and the science you don't know. Characterizing the science you don't know as "art" is a fools game.
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  #7 (permalink)
 
Rrrracer's Avatar
 Rrrracer 
On the road
Webinar Host
Trading Nomad
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradingView
Broker: Oanda
Trading: FX
Posts: 2,512 since Feb 2017
Thanks Given: 17,582
Thanks Received: 9,752

I decided I need to start a trading journal on this forum so that I can hold myself accountable and get invaluable guidance from people with more experience. I honestly feel like I've found my path and I'm determined to become a full-time trader even if takes 5+ years, I'm not an easily discouraged individual and I never shy away from a challenge.

Awesome man, you're young and have your whole life in front of you. I would say at age 27, I still had no clue what it was that I really wanted to do... but it sounds like you have passion for it, and really everything stems from that. Things may be different in the future, but if you really feel that way about it then I say go for it.

1. Is $5000 a realistic account size to trade 1-2 ES contracts?

The general guideline for anything that trades at that level per tick is you want to have $10K in the account for each lot. That said, there are other options for starting smaller.

2. I chose Trading Technologies as my platform due to their easy to build workspace and their fast execution. However it costs $50 a month plus the $15 for CME, maybe I would be better off switching to Sierra Charts or trying a different platform supported by AMP. Is there a big difference between TT's data feed and CQG? What advantages does TT have over the other trading platforms and vice versa?

The least expensive way I found to get in was AMP+Sierra Pkg 3+CQG. Fund the initial account for $500 or whatever it is, get a world class platform for free and a great data feed for $5/$15 a month, good to go. Never messed with TT.


3. Is there an instrument better suited for beginners? I'm not married to ES and wouldn't mind trying something with a lower tick value so that I could continue to live trade while saving up to add to my account.

There really isn't a "beginner instrument." Best value and action would be on the M6E, $1.25/tick. You'd be trading a currency which would be far from the ES, but initial investment and return on your dollar for amount invested vs experienced gained is hard to beat. There's quite a few currency traders here at FIO as well, you won't be alone. Pick one market you can hang with and master it, then move on if you feel need be.

4. Should I just go back to sim-trading until I have more experience? I have mixed feelings about this and think a major part of improving as a trader is to actually have cash on the line so that I can get used to the anxiety associated with live trading.

Depends... do you have a methodical edge that you can prove, replicate and rely upon? If so... go live (this is the stage I am at... 2nd time lol) If not, stick around in sim until you determine otherwise.

5. Can I post my journal in the Elite members section or is that space reserved for the more skilled traders?

You paid your $100, you're in. Looking forward to reading about your trading adventures. The journal is a great idea, definitely keep it up. It will be amazing to look back on all of this in a year or so and see where you were at.
Best of luck young man, create your reality.

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  #8 (permalink)
 Donnigan 
St. Louis, MO
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Trading: M6E
Posts: 48 since Apr 2018
Thanks Given: 43
Thanks Received: 170

Thanks for all the great responses. It's given me a lot to think about. As much as I want to live trade I think it's clear I need to go back to the sim and validate my edge. Currently I've been taking trades based off S/R, price action, momentum, VWAP and slow stochastic, but it's been very discretionary and I haven't been keeping detailed enough stats. Didn't realize my lack of confidence was due to lack of hard statistics, but that seems to be the case. A journal is going to help a lot with that. When I'm ready to live trade again M6E looks like a good starting point. That way I can gain some experience at a lower tuition cost.


tpredictor View Post
1. Trade with 2 contracts max.
2. Risk max $700 per day. If loss > $500 and not in position, shut down for day.
3. Risk $350 per trade max.
4. Profit objective: $5000. Max DD: $4000.
5. Target 3-6 trades per day.
6. Journal every day pre and post market and keep stats on all trades.
7. Evaluate every 7 days and set goals.
8. Deadline/target date: 90 days. Re-evaluate in 90 days. Min trading days 15.
9. Any re-starts/resets/etc. reset the evaluation.
10. Take best trades within abilities while keeping risk as minimum as possible. (Why this statement? It means your stop loss per trade must be reasonable to win the trade and that the goal is not to try to trade optimally because that normally requires taking a very high risk per trade.)

This seems like a great way to build a solid foundation. I'm going to follow this advice.


Pariah Carey View Post
I think with just $5,000 you'll be nothing more than a speed bump in the es market. I personally wouldn't touch futures with less than 20+, and a lot of subject matter experts would agree. Maybe it's been done, I don't know. But the ones who can successfully trade a futures market on such a small account, with such small stops, are few and far between.

I second trading the M6e or 10,000 lot forex pairs (at a buck a pip, it's cheap).

You're probably ready to trade live with the money you have. You just got to go out and do it, and find your way. Best way to learn to swim is to just jump in the water. I'm not a big fan of simming, although I am using market replay in preparation to one day make a go of day trading futures.

There are a lot of very helpful people on this forum and a proverbial firehose of information. I recommend threads from Big Mike, tigertrader, and Inletcap in particular. Read them, learn, and take what you will. Back when all three were posting regularly a few years ago, this place was gold. Use the search function. It will take a little digging around but you'll know them when you find them.

Thanks for steering me towards those threads. There's an overwhelming amount of information on this site so it's nice to have a starting point.


Rrrracer View Post
Awesome man, you're young and have your whole life in front of you. I would say at age 27, I still had no clue what it was that I really wanted to do... but it sounds like you have passion for it, and really everything stems from that. Things may be different in the future, but if you really feel that way about it then I say go for it.

I appreciate the kind words. As silly as it may sound this is the first year I've really been conscious of my age and "feeling old". I feel better knowing I'm not too late to the game.

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  #9 (permalink)
 
bobwest's Avatar
 bobwest 
Western Florida
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: ES, YM
Frequency: Several times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 8,162 since Jan 2013
Thanks Given: 57,343
Thanks Received: 26,267

You've gotten a lot of excellent advice, and you may have noticed that it's all pretty much different. That's normal. Taken together, though, it's a good list of responses.

Here's my take on the question:

As most have pointed out, a few thousand dollars is very thin, especially starting out.

All of the emotional reactions to trading you experienced are completely normal, and everyone has them at first. They also are going to end up costing you all or most of your cash unless and until you get them under control (which is not necessarily easy.)

There are many opinions about sim. Basically, it is likely to teach you some bad lessons about risk, but it is better than losing all your money in a hurry. I would use sim to build some basic trading skills and habits, and be aware that once you have real money on the line, everything you learned in sim may go out the window. It's a very tricky situation, because sim insulates you from a lot of the psychological reality of trading, which is the most important thing to get a handle on... but it does let you practice, which you do need to do.

Here's an analogy: you probably know how to drive, and you probably learned by first staying in a parking lot or some other safe area where the risk was controled. You weren't taken out on the highway at a busy time of day after a day or two in a classroom and told to put to use what you had "learned." But you also had to eventually get out on the road. Take this as a way to balance the different aspects of sim vs. live, and make your decisions with some care.

By all means start a journal right now in the Elite section. Post every day's trades with some charts and say as much as you can about why you took them and why they went either right or wrong. Use the currently active journals on FIO as a resource and click the Follow Thread button so you are notified of new posts they make. You can see who is posting to journals, if you don't already know them, in the Active list halfway down the the main page, or by clicking the New Posts link up at the top. You will find that they all do different things and have very different ideas -- don't try to copy anyone's method, just start to see what traders go through and struggle with. You will find that you encounter the same things.

As to platform and what instrument you should use, these are personal choices (all the others are, too). I don't know anything about TT, but SierraChart is a good choice, although initially bewildering in its many riches. Start with simple charts and you will be fine.

I had a laugh about your concern about how old you are getting. I won't say more than that... but no, you're not too old.

Good luck. And start that journal today. Go do it now.

Bob.

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  #10 (permalink)
 
Rrrracer's Avatar
 Rrrracer 
On the road
Webinar Host
Trading Nomad
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradingView
Broker: Oanda
Trading: FX
Posts: 2,512 since Feb 2017
Thanks Given: 17,582
Thanks Received: 9,752


Mr. West, you should get some sort of consistency award for your amazing posts. Or maybe the FIO Elder Statesman Lifetime Achievement award for being the most helpful old skool guy here, still kicking it and helping all the noobs


bobwest View Post
By all means start a journal right now in the Elite section. Post every day's trades with some charts and say as much as you can about why you took them and why they went either right or wrong. Use the currently active journals on FIO as a resource and click the Follow Thread button so you are notified of new posts they make. You can see who is posting to journals, if you don't already know them, in the Active list halfway down the the main page, or by clicking the New Posts link up at the top. You will find that they all do different things and have very different ideas -- don't try to copy anyone's method, just start to see what traders go through and struggle with. You will find that you encounter the same things.

Good luck. And start that journal today. Go do it now.

I agree 100%. I lurked around here for a long time before starting my journal, but once I did it opened avenues of discovery that went well beyond just plowing through old threads and such.

@Donnigan, the sooner you start posting your trades and making yourself accountable, the sooner we can start making fun of you JK man, but even the process of starting your journal and sticking with it no matter what will have positive ripple effects on your trading, not to mention the questionable input that others here will offer up haha. OK, OK, seriously, lots of helpful people around these parts. Put yourself out there and you'll be ahead of the game.

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Last Updated on April 23, 2018


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