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Can Day Trading be profitable for retail?


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View Poll Results: Can Day Trading be profitable, consistently, for retail traders
Yes 133 69.27%
Yes
133 69.27%
No 23 11.98%
No
23 11.98%
Can't say 36 18.75%
Can't say
36 18.75%
Voters: 192. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Can Day Trading be profitable for retail?

  #31 (permalink)
uncharted
Prague Czech Republic
 
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jefforey View Post
Ok By Day-Trading I mean not more than 20 trades/Instrument a day. And all trades closed before market close.

somedays I make over 50 like today and somedays less than 10, there are no similar days

closing the trade because of the time is senseless to me unless it is in a good profit you are happy with. The deal should be closed either by take profit or a stop loss but not because it is 11:59 pm.

The answer is "Yes" it can be in general, but not each separate day.

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  #32 (permalink)
 jefforey 
edison new jersey
 
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uncharted View Post
closing the trade because of the time is senseless to me unless it is in a good profit you are happy with. The deal should be closed either by take profit or a stop loss but not because it is 11:59 pm.

But if you are trading intraday and want to avoid overnight risk then closing the trade before market close is normal. Isn't it?

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  #33 (permalink)
uncharted
Prague Czech Republic
 
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Please explain what might be the risk? Gaps usually happen on Monday opening only, if you have your stoploss and take profit in place there should be no risk.

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  #34 (permalink)
 
xplorer's Avatar
 xplorer 
London UK
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uncharted View Post
Please explain what might be the risk? Gaps usually happen on Monday opening only, if you have your stoploss and take profit in place there should be no risk.

Check the words in bold above. That's the risk right there

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  #35 (permalink)
uncharted
Prague Czech Republic
 
Posts: 16 since Jan 2018
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Well, I would take such risk,
does not mean someone else should of course.

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  #36 (permalink)
 
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 xplorer 
London UK
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uncharted View Post
Well, I would take such risk,
does not mean someone else should of course.

Sorry, I was just being pedantic with the statement 'there should be no risk' which to me is a misnomer but I accept what you say, i.e. that there should be a relatively low-risk overnight. If nothing happens when we are asleep, that is.

Some people deal with it, others don't, that's all.

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  #37 (permalink)
 tpredictor 
North Carolina
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
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Posts: 644 since Nov 2011

Yes, day trading futures can be profitable. However, most will not make money day trading. Also, most of the big money is probably not in strictly day trading. Sometimes the markets offer more day trading opportunities. Yes, it is very difficult to overcome costs if you are scalping and/or not taking much risk per trade. I am trying/have tried the latter. It is very difficult. Of course, if you can trade in that fashion profitably the sky is the limit because of the way the mathematics work.

But, just in terms of reality... the professional retail/professional trader today probably must draw from a wider palette of profit opportunity because the markets are rather efficient.

The following is the most likely portrait of the successful elite retail trader today:

1. The trader has significant discretionary trading ability and tracks the markets closely every day like is commonly viewed as a day trader. However, this trader is not limited to discretionary day trading but rather has various grayboxes that help highlight profit opportunities. This sort of trader is probably only using discretion in the first 1 or 2 hours and is careful to limit their trading frequency during this period. After the first hour or so, the trader probably switches to focusing more on the semi-automated and automated opportunities.

2. The trader probably has a low frequency day trading systems that trigger and also systems that aren't easily categorized. Because of recent risk on markets, the trader is likely holding positions over multiple days in many cases and/or day trading but not in the strict sense.

3. Most likely has automated strategies running as well of various types. May be hold options in addition to futures to limit risk.

4. The successful trader may also be tracking markets over long periods of time and waiting for exceptional opportunities.

5. Probably is very well capitalized with min 100k to 500k.

6. Devotes significant resources to both backtesting and training.

7. Performance is likely highly variable with insane returns over some weeks or months and then very bad returns over others.

The following is the proto-typical image of the day trader but one that is very difficult to achieve:

1. Day trades only 1 market, uses tight stops, risks only a tiny amount per trade, places many trades per day, and is profitable virtually every day. I have tried this. It is very, very difficult. Anyone doing this successfully surely are using some tricks/doing some things differently then common wisdom suggest.

The following is possible and some may be doing this

1. Day trades 1-2 markets, takes a large risk per day, and is profitable most days. This sort of trading style can be consistent but has large tail risk.
2. Mostly day trades but tries to get into some bigger trades that they can hold over a couple to several days and/or trades at odd times.
---

The most common sort of day trading that can be profitable for the retail trader is focusing on capturing trend days and/or lower frequency day trading. This sort of trading can be profitable but opportunity is limited/narrow for professional trader.

Even if one is day trading in the "proto-typical" or idealized imagined fashion, most likely there are still periods of drawdown which is made worse due to the high trading costs.
---

As an aside, I do not like traders that talk about consistently profitable without qualifying what they mean. How consistent? How profitable? The two do not need to go together and without specifics it is impossible to know what one means.

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  #38 (permalink)
 
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 michaelleemoore 
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jefforey View Post
I agree that there is no incentive. I am just looking for some evidence. Not here to offend anyone. One way would be to post backtesting results done using tick data, I guess.


I am a discretionary trader. I trader support/resistance, and take short-term trades at well-known areas such as the D-High, Y-low, VWAP, the daily opening price, etc. I expect short-terms reactions at those places, and my trades are successful at about an 80% rate. I have short targets, tight stops, and trade 3-5 contracts per trade, in general.

You can not back test what I do, as it is not a system based on indicators providing some sort of signal to trade. I have observed the market for thousands of hours and I "know" that certain markets will react at certain levels by any overwhelming percentage. So, I take the trades when I "feel" like the level I'm looking at will provoke the reaction.

I have a goal of making four figures a day, and succeed on most days. I have been profitable for several years, and lose at a rate of less than one day per month. What I do seems very simple to me. I take trades at places on the chart. I know where my markets are in terms of the day, week and month, but my trades are all based on the moment. But I don't speculate often about the reasons the market moves like it does, and I don't pay attention to volume, order flow, etc.

I ran an active thread on FIO for quite a while, and detailed my trading journey. You can read it at The Scalper's Journey.

I trade with a small group of traders every day, and I can assure that our small handful of traders is profitable. We do not all share the same approach, but we make money. You can too, but you have to put in the time. It's not easy. But the problem is not commissions, brokers, others in the market, etc. If you are not making money in the market, the problem is you. Only you can fix that problem.

Good luck,

Michael

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  #39 (permalink)
 jefforey 
edison new jersey
 
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Thanks everyone for your contribution. I truly appreciate each and every responce.



michaelleemoore View Post
I am a discretionary trader. I trader support/resistance, and take short-term trades at well-known areas such as the D-High, Y-low, VWAP, the daily opening price, etc. I expect short-terms reactions at those places, and my trades are successful at about an 80% rate. I have short targets, tight stops, and trade 3-5 contracts per trade, in general.

You can not back test what I do, as it is not a system based on indicators providing some sort of signal to trade. I have observed the market for thousands of hours and I "know" that certain markets will react at certain levels by any overwhelming percentage. So, I take the trades when I "feel" like the level I'm looking at will provoke the reaction.

I have a goal of making four figures a day, and succeed on most days. I have been profitable for several years, and lose at a rate of less than one day per month. What I do seems very simple to me. I take trades at places on the chart. I know where my markets are in terms of the day, week and month, but my trades are all based on the moment. But I don't speculate often about the reasons the market moves like it does, and I don't pay attention to volume, order flow, etc.

I ran an active thread on FIO for quite a while, and detailed my trading journey. You can read it at The Scalper's Journey.

I trade with a small group of traders every day, and I can assure that our small handful of traders is profitable. We do not all share the same approach, but we make money. You can too, but you have to put in the time. It's not easy. But the problem is not commissions, brokers, others in the market, etc. If you are not making money in the market, the problem is you. Only you can fix that problem.

Good luck,

Michael

Michael. Thankyou for responding to this thread. Is your stop larger than profit target? I am really struggling with my strategy. One of my strategy is 70% successful but it loses twise than the winner.

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  #40 (permalink)
BazGibson
London
 
Posts: 1 since Nov 2016
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I have to admit few so called trading educators can really put you on the right track towards profit. However there are a few that I believe have the right attitude and decency when dealing with retail traders.

My story will be the same as most I'm sure. Though I consider myself lucky to be still on the same account as when I first set out to trade.

How did I turn it around from getting beaten up by the market to holding my own...

1. Homework is key.
2. Know thy Market. Auction Theory.
3. Know thy trading Monkey (Psychology)

All of the above points ... Credit and a massive thank-you to futuresTrader71.

4. Reading & Dissecting the market.
5. Orderflow
6. Best Trading Tools & Support this side of the trading galaxy

All of the above points ... Credit and a massive thank-you to Peter Davies / Jigsaw Trading.

Valuable, Insightful, content rich, life-changing material with a value ten times that of the other trading educations AND for a fraction of the cost. Did you know FT71 Webinar series (Awesome)...all the proceeds go to his chosen charity!!!

Because of these guys I now nail trade location and have called every new all time high on the NQ for the last three months. Not that I trade tops/bottoms. Seriously check them out.

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Last Updated on July 17, 2018


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