You lost your mind!? My quotes and arguments about trading - futures io
futures io



You lost your mind!? My quotes and arguments about trading


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one ppmaxim with 4 posts (1 thanks)
    2. looks_two matthew28 with 2 posts (3 thanks)
    3. looks_3 ratfink with 2 posts (5 thanks)
    4. looks_4 xplorer with 2 posts (2 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one ratfink with 2.5 thanks per post
    2. looks_two kevinkdog with 2 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 matthew28 with 1.5 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 xplorer with 1 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 4,770 views
    2. thumb_up 14 thanks given
    3. group 3 followers
    1. forum 12 posts
    2. attach_file 3 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

You lost your mind!? My quotes and arguments about trading

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
ppmaxim
Russia
 
 
Posts: 5 since Apr 2017
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

Hey.

I read a lot of forums, I look at what people write - what strategies they are trying to trade. Guys - are you out of your mind? Do you really think that the price action works, trend lines, support and resistance lines, cluster analysis, sales tape viewing, indicators.

All the classic technical analysis will work until the time it needs a market maker.

Listen to the guys, the market maker is a painter, yes yes he's a painter! Its task is to provide liquidity and make money on it. Therefore, he will draw for the crowd any formation that you would believe in it.

To earn permanently and consistently - you need to find really open positions, which are protected by the market maker.

There are so many different strategies and many of them are considered to be profitable. But to catch a very strong movement, you need to wait until the market maker draws a beautiful formation for the crowd - a trend channel, or a beautiful line of support or resistance. It is important not the number of transactions and their quality - but a strong movement to prepare for a long time.

Let's talk about this

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to ppmaxim for this post:

Journal Challenge April 2021 results (now extended!):
Competing for $1800 in prizes from Jigsaw
looks_oneMaking a Living with the Microsby sstheo
(582 thanks from 59 posts)
looks_twoSalao's Journalby Salao
(137 thanks from 25 posts)
looks_3Deetee’s DAX Trading Journal (time based)by Deetee
(94 thanks from 30 posts)
looks_4Learning to Profit - A journey in algorithms and optionsby Syntax
(85 thanks from 26 posts)
looks_5Maybe a little bit different journalby Malykubo
(46 thanks from 28 posts)
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
I finally blew up an account
471 thanks
The Crude Dude Oil Trading System
72 thanks
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
49 thanks
Are candlesticks patterns statistically significant?
35 thanks
Can I trade ZN Future with zero spread?
20 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 xplorer 
Site Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,380 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 13,559 given, 13,068 received



ppmaxim View Post
Let's talk about this

Let's

I think saying something like "support/resistance works-doesn't work" is quite limiting.

On the other hand, saying "support/resistance works enough of the time to be profitable" is something I could debate.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
ppmaxim
Russia
 
 
Posts: 5 since Apr 2017
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

Give an example Gold 60 min chart
Classic technical analysis says that you need to sell from the top of the channel
Point 1 - we see that the market broke through the trend channel and went up, and then turned sharply and fell down.
This is an excellent example of how a market maker can draw a beautiful trend channel and drive everyone into sales. If you look at point 1 on the chart for 5 minutes, then there is even more interesting.

In my trade I do not use indicators - the most objective is price, volume and reaction to this volume

But how do you trade? Tell me please


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw daytradr
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
matthew28's Avatar
 
Posts: 989 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,493 given, 1,812 received



So somebody selling the channel top took a small loss when it made a new high. Then price failed to break away but came back to the top of the channel, consolidated, and then they could have entered when it broke through with a target, as they were trading the channel, at the other side of the channel.
Result: 1 small loss, 1 win about twice the size.
Are you suggesting 'market makers' always win? How does picking out one example of a loss on a chart prove that all or any of the things you mention don't work. I tend to agree in that I think for shorter term trading order flow becomes much more important and useful to be aware of, but for longer term trading I think traditional technical analysis of charts is probably going to be of more help.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to matthew28 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
 ratfink 
Birmingham UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: TST/Rithmic
Trading: YM/Gold
 
ratfink's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,651 since Dec 2012
Thanks: 17,422 given, 8,403 received

Also known in wave parlance as a classic 'throwover', so hardly an MM mystery.

Cheers

Travel Well
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to ratfink for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
ppmaxim
Russia
 
 
Posts: 5 since Apr 2017
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


matthew28 View Post


So somebody selling the channel top took a small loss when it made a new high. Then price failed to break away but came back to the top of the channel, consolidated, and then they could have entered when it broke through with a target, as they were trading the channel, at the other side of the channel.
Result: 1 small loss, 1 win about twice the size.
Are you suggesting 'market makers' always win? How does picking out one example of a loss on a chart prove that all or any of the things you mention don't work. I tend to agree in that I think for shorter term trading order flow becomes much more important and useful to be aware of, but for longer term trading I think traditional technical analysis of charts is probably going to be of more help.

OK

On the history of trading is very easy, but if you look at the chart like this?


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
ppmaxim
Russia
 
 
Posts: 5 since Apr 2017
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


ratfink View Post
Also known in wave parlance as a classic 'throwover', so hardly an MM mystery.

Cheers

Everything is much simpler. A large buyer bought all the sales on the upper border of the trend channel

Why call it beautiful names?

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
 xplorer 
Site Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,380 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 13,559 given, 13,068 received


ppmaxim View Post
OK

On the history of trading is very easy, but if you look at the chart like this?


I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

As Matthew said, it's easy to just cherry-pick one or two examples and then be able to fit a whole theory around them: it's what most people who sell 'strategies' or even books do.

A different thing is to say "this approach is profitable x% of the time" or "this setup has a xyz expectancy"

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw daytradr
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
matthew28's Avatar
 
Posts: 989 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,493 given, 1,812 received


Sure, hindsight is easy, but nothing changes. You take a trade because for one reason or another you think the probability is higher that the trade is going to go your way than not. And if it doesn't you take a small loss and go on to the next trade.
As I said, I tend to agree that order flow is important, especially for shorter term trading, and particularly now that accurate volume and the order book are widely available; but I disagree with your premise that a whole selection of methods can't work for anybody.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to matthew28 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 3,002 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,597 given, 5,962 received


ppmaxim View Post
Give an example Gold 60 min chart
Classic technical analysis says that you need to sell from the top of the channel
Point 1 - we see that the market broke through the trend channel and went up, and then turned sharply and fell down.
This is an excellent example of how a market maker can draw a beautiful trend channel and drive everyone into sales. If you look at point 1 on the chart for 5 minutes, then there is even more interesting.

In my trade I do not use indicators - the most objective is price, volume and reaction to this volume

But how do you trade? Tell me please



This example is tainted. It is quite likely that in real time your trend lines would have looking nothing like this. Your lines sometimes come close to touching turning points, sometimes not.

In other words, you can make your after the fact lines show whatever you want to show.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to kevinkdog for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
 DavidHP 
Legendary Market Wizard
New Orleans, La (Mardi Gras City)
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Ninjatrader / Optimus Futures / AmpFutures
Trading: ES / 6E / 6B / CL
 
DavidHP's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,379 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 10,148 given, 2,427 received

I see your problem.

You don't know how to draw trendlines.
Perhaps you should show us the time frame (date time etc) of this chart so we can show you what you should have been looking at and draw the correct trendline.

From the chart you posted it appears that you should have been drawing a flag (pennant) and not a trendline, but without the proper context it is impossible to know if you actually posted a 60 min chart and what the big picture was at the time.


ppmaxim View Post
Give an example Gold 60 min chart


Rejoice in the Thunderstorms of Life . . .
Knowing it's not about Clouds or Wind. . .
But Learning to Dance in the Rain ! ! !
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to DavidHP for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
 ratfink 
Birmingham UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: TST/Rithmic
Trading: YM/Gold
 
ratfink's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,651 since Dec 2012
Thanks: 17,422 given, 8,403 received


ppmaxim View Post
Everything is much simpler. A large buyer bought all the sales on the upper border of the trend channel

Why call it beautiful names?

Because once you understand and appreciate the fractal nature of patterns and the orders of magnitude involved in larger timeframe moves that exhibit exactly the same characteristics, but with millions of players involved, you realise that there is never 'one big buyer'; just many thousands of players that are always going to get taken advantage of owing to their inappropriate degree of optimism or pessimism.

I find it just as amusing as the volume profile and order flow religions; did a volume profile ever tell a price where to go?, or rather is a volume profile simply the shape it is because of where price went and how much got traded at each level. In other words it is just as lagging as any other indicator, just built in Price/Volume 2D space rather than Price/Time 2D space.

Likewise order flow is a great tool to see what was happening, who was aggressive or passive, strong or weak and so forth. But it still won't tell you which way price will eventually go.

Why? Because neither tool or any approach that says 'it was because of the market makers' will tell you anything about why buyers and sellers in the large might have changed their minds.

And also because I like poetry.

Markets exist because we're all different. Cycles exist because humans can't see them and certainly don't believe in them. History happens because nobody thinks it's worth remembering history.

Cheers

Travel Well
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to ratfink for this post:


futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout > You lost your mind!? My quotes and arguments about trading


Last Updated on July 5, 2017


Upcoming Webinars and Events

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing

Journal Challenge w/$1,800 in prizes!

May 7

EdgeProX - A Simple Choice For The Active Trader w/Morad Askar @ Edge Clear …

Elite only

The Cold Hard Truth: Maybe I Am Not Good Enough w/Chris Gray @ Earn2Trade

Elite only
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada), info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts