NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Is margin variable according to price, and why?


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one xplorer with 3 posts (5 thanks)
    2. looks_two choke35 with 2 posts (6 thanks)
    3. looks_3 trendisyourfriend with 1 posts (3 thanks)
    4. looks_4 GFIs1 with 1 posts (4 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one SpeculatorSeth with 4 thanks per post
    2. looks_two GFIs1 with 4 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 choke35 with 3 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 xplorer with 1.7 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 5,652 views
    2. thumb_up 26 thanks given
    3. group 5 followers
    1. forum 10 posts
    2. attach_file 2 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Is margin variable according to price, and why?

  #1 (permalink)
 
xplorer's Avatar
 xplorer 
London UK
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
Posts: 5,972 since Sep 2015
Thanks Given: 15,487
Thanks Received: 15,382


GFIs1 View Post
As we see price nearing last ATH in the DAX - a new might be at the
front door soon.

For sure the 127xx level is history for next days.

132xx - we are coming

Means again HIGHER margins on the futures - oops!

GFIs1

This post by GFIs1 caught my attention.

Although I noticed that margins did not appear set in stone, I did not know that they can vary according to price.

If I read the post correctly, margin increases with the price rising, and viceversa.


Question 1: why?

Question 2: does it apply to all futures instruments (presumably so)?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
Pivot Indicator like the old SwingTemp by Big Mike
NinjaTrader
ZombieSqueeze
Platforms and Indicators
How to apply profiles
Traders Hideout
Exit Strategy
NinjaTrader
MC PL editor upgrade
MultiCharts
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
31 thanks
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
28 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
Bigger Wins or Fewer Losses?
20 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
17 thanks
  #3 (permalink)
 
trendisyourfriend's Avatar
 trendisyourfriend 
Quebec Canada
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: ES, NQ, YM
Frequency: Daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 4,527 since Oct 2009
Thanks Given: 4,175
Thanks Received: 6,020



xplorer View Post

Question 1: why?

Question 2: does it apply to all futures instruments (presumably so)?

When you think about it it is normal. It's like making a loan to your bank to buy a house. The higher the price of the house, the higher the cash down will it require.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #4 (permalink)
 
xplorer's Avatar
 xplorer 
London UK
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
Posts: 5,972 since Sep 2015
Thanks Given: 15,487
Thanks Received: 15,382


trendisyourfriend View Post
When you think about it it is normal. It's like making a loan to your bank to buy a house. The higher the price of the house, the higher the cash down will it require.

Okay, so far I have approached margin from the point of view of a speculator, thinking about the futures product in terms of tick increment worth, liquidity and volatility.

Whereas I think you are saying that I should think about the intrinsic value of the asset, right?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #5 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 5,101
Thanks Received: 6,558


xplorer View Post
Okay, so far I have approached margin from the point of view of a speculator, thinking about the futures product in terms of tick increment worth, liquidity and volatility.

Whereas I think you are saying that I should think about the intrinsic value of the asset, right?

Nope, not intrinsic value (whoever knows that ), only nominal value, i.e. point x index.

Staying with @trendisyourfriend 's example: Nominal value is the price of your house, of which you are making
a fractional down payment (your margin) in order to cover the risks (liquidity, volatility, rate changes, etc.).

Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)
 GFIs1 
who cares
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: None
Platform: nobody interested
Broker: none
Trading: forget about it
Posts: 6,933 since Feb 2012
Thanks Given: 6,196
Thanks Received: 15,588


xplorer View Post
This post by GFIs1 caught my attention.

Although I noticed that margins did not appear set in stone, I did not know that they can vary according to price.

If I read the post correctly, margin increases with the price rising, and viceversa.
Question 1: why?

Question 2: does it apply to all futures instruments (presumably so)?

Yes!!!

Hi @xplorer
Margin is directly connected with the price level of a future.
Of course every broker is free to adapt own levels...

Now concerning the DAX - An example
Watch here my first trade in my Dax journal on February 21st 2012:

Dax was on a level of 6909 - a margin with IB of 7200 €

now one more - the LAST trade of my journal on June 15th 2017:

Dax was on a level of 12754 - a margin with IB of 14850 €

So - the DAX made quite some up and the margins were doubled...
All that can not being seen equally with derivatives.

With one Dax future contract you move € 250000. That is the leverage when you touch

Have a look at margins with Interactive Brokers live here:
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=marginnew&p=fut

Get some insight into reading the table



We have a Initial Margin - this is what you need for the FIRST contract...
then we have Intraday Margin - that means the margin for 2nd to x contracts
And beware of OVERNIGHT Margin - that means what you need to pay 15min. before future closing time
when holding overnight until normal futures market reopens again on following day.

If you are not having enough capital on your account - then all your hang over margin contracts are sold
immediately to the price near closing automatically.

Hope this helps
GFIs1

Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)
 
xplorer's Avatar
 xplorer 
London UK
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
Posts: 5,972 since Sep 2015
Thanks Given: 15,487
Thanks Received: 15,382


GFIs1 View Post
Hope this helps
GFIs1

Yes it does! Thanks for your comprehensive post


For some reason I can't credit your post with the answer

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #8 (permalink)
 
SMCJB's Avatar
 SMCJB 
Houston TX
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TT and Stellar
Broker: Advantage Futures
Trading: Primarily Energy but also a little Equities, Fixed Income, Metals and Crypto.
Frequency: Many times daily
Duration: Never
Posts: 5,049 since Dec 2013
Thanks Given: 4,386
Thanks Received: 10,206

I built a cash flow/futures margin at risk model once for a NYMEX Energy Futures book, probably ten years ago now. Initially I just started with a VaR model but the big errors in the model predictions were all days when the margin level changed. As such I had to also build a model that predicted margin changes. I don't remember the exact details any longer, but the best predictor I could find of a margin requirements was the X day ATR. So at least back then, margin requirements were most heavily influenced by volatility.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #9 (permalink)
 ShatteredX 
Houston, TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Python
Trading: NQ
Posts: 97 since Apr 2016
Thanks Given: 133
Thanks Received: 96


SMCJB View Post
I built a cash flow/futures margin at risk model once for a NYMEX Energy Futures book, probably ten years ago now. Initially I just started with a VaR model but the big errors in the model predictions were all days when the margin level changed. As such I had to also build a model that predicted margin changes. I don't remember the exact details any longer, but the best predictor I could find of a margin requirements was the X day ATR. So at least back then, margin requirements were most heavily influenced by volatility.

Yeah, I agree with this. My understanding is that margin depends on notional value and volatility.

Higher price does not necessarily mean higher margin requirement. A large, sudden drop is price would likely cause a broker to increase margin for that product. But price very slowly going higher could translate to lower margin requirements for a product (see the ES recently for an example of this).

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, Andreas Clenow mentions in Following the Trend that some traders use their broker's current margin requirements for their volatility calculations instead of using ATR.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #10 (permalink)
 SpeculatorSeth   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 780 since Apr 2016
Thanks Given: 22
Thanks Received: 1,018


I think the key thing to keep in mind is that the margin requirements are not necessarily set in stone or increased automatically. The broker or exchange can decide to increase or decrease the margin required on an instrument whenever they want.

This is what leads to things like that big run in Silver we had a few years ago. As the price went higher, the margins didn't increase. One contract was increasingly worth more and more increasing the leverage you had, and making it more attractive to trade. However, the exchange decided to increase the margins, and that meant some traders had to liquidate their position resulting in an ugly selloff.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:




Last Updated on June 21, 2017


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts