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BackTesting and Programming Planning
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BackTesting and Programming Planning

 
Houston
 
 
Posts: 94 since Dec 2016
Thanks: 31 given, 45 received

BackTesting and Programming Planning

Hello,

Great to be here.

I been trading futures for about 2-3 years. Unprofitable, but dedicated.

I currently paper trade discretionary a strategy that's been improperly backtested for 2-3 months. In other words, I am manually backtesting and every 1 or 2 weeks, I think of an extra parameter to test and the work is just flat our inefficient and time consuming manual backtesting something that may not work.

After lots of research and reading, I am deciding to learn to code my ideas/strategy via a trader platform. I have not programmed (#C ) since college, 8 years ago, but I am great a logical thinking in a coding sense.

So i am looking for some help planning my next +year of trading plan effectively.

To begin, I am NOT trading with real money until I have 1 or 2 systems that I have thourghly backtested, papertraded, forward manual tested and automated sim traded. Period!! However long it takes, its getting done right this time. Tired of losing money with no historical proven strategy. And manual backtesting is just taking too long and too much room for error and mistracking data.

My Situation:
Full time working (about 45 hours per week). I would like to evenutally automate trades, so I don't have to sneak and take trades at work in the early morning.
family, with one child
decent size money for trading.

Trading Instruments:
ES,CL, NQ

Number of contracts trading:
1-3

Goals:
$500 to $1000 per week in trading income. 2-3 trades per day. Automated Trading since i work full time. I currently paper discretionary trade from a system I back tested for 2- 3 months.

Trading Experience:
3 years of chart price action screen time. I have about 4 trading ideas i would like to program and backtest. no more manual backtesting, takes too long and too tedious. unless backtest for about 50 sample points to see if idea is worth programming.

Please advise if my plan going forward is suggested or not.

1. Learn how to program NinjaTrader platform in #C. Not sure why I chose NT, I accept recommendations of other platforms. I read that NinjaTrader is good for newbie programmers.
Any recommendations on programming courses in #C for NinjaTrader? I do not mind investing money in my trading learning to quickening my learning curve.

2. Currently reading Building Winning Algorithmic Trading Systems, + Website: A Trader's Journey From Data Mining to Monte Carlo Simulation to Live Trading (Wiley Trading) by Kevin Dansey. Kevin recommends TradeStation but TradeStation wants $5000 deposit to use their platform, NT is free trial for a month.

2. Start programming some simple strategies to learn the platform.

3. Backtest the simple strategies

4. Proceed to programming my own strategies.

Any recommendations on programming courses? Or platform for my situation.

 
 
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North Carolina
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Favorite Futures: es
 
Posts: 644 since Nov 2011


My way of thinking has always been to derive from strengths. If you have a strong ability to read the market then discretionary trading can make sense. If you have a strong programming and quantitative background then trading systems can make sense. It sounds like you fell down the trap of a type of quasi-mechanical style of trading that doesn't have any real advantage.

I think you are setting yourself too many hurdles. As part of a project, I was recently teaching a friend different base systems and she said, "I have to learn this perfectly". And, I was thinking, well uhm no you really don't have to learn it perfectly because I make mistakes all the time but you do have to understand it. It sounds like you are setting yourself a bar too high.

Yes, I agree Tradestation is excellent for prototyping systems. Ninja is very strong too. There are other good products but those are the most accessible that I know. Wealth-Lab is also good but requires a Fidelity account and funded. Data analysis platforms like R, Python, and Matlab may also be useful. Metatrader is popular among Forex traders.

Beyond the programming, the more important skills are strong data analysis and creative thinking. While futures are arguably the most profitable markets/instruments to trade, they are some of the worst for deploying and developing trading systems because the amount required per system tends not to be insignificant.

If you really have a "decent size money" for trading then funding a 5k account for Tradestation should not require much thought and is worth it. NinjaTrader is popular because it is free and more open than other platforms. So, you will find more third party add-ons.

For you, I would advise the following:

1. Reassess why you got into trading. You may have hidden strengths or talents that could change the optimal plan.
2. Start with Tradestation and Easylanguage. It will be easier than attempting to learn C#. C# is my favorite general purpose programming language. However, Easylanguage is excellent for prototyping simple systems and should be easier to learn.
3. Set yourself a deadline for launching your new system. Make it something urgent. Give yourself let's say 90 days.
4. Launch whatever you have. If you can't blow 5k-10k then consider developing for Forex. MetaTrader is a platform you should look at in that case.
5. Now you can start learning.

One other word of caution, even most automated traders do monitor their systems actively.


Last edited by tpredictor; December 29th, 2016 at 05:00 PM.
 
 
Houston
 
 
Posts: 94 since Dec 2016
Thanks: 31 given, 45 received


tpredictor View Post
My way of thinking has always been to derive from strengths. If you have a strong ability to read the market then discretionary trading can make sense. If you have a strong programming and quantitative background then trading systems can make sense. It sounds like you fell down the trap of a type of quasi-mechanical style of trading that doesn't have any real advantage.

I think you are setting yourself too many hurdles. As part of a project, I was recently teaching a friend different base systems and she said, "I have to learn this perfectly". And, I was thinking, well uhm no you really don't have to learn it perfectly because I make mistakes all the time but you do have to understand it. It sounds like you are setting yourself a bar too high.

Yes, I agree Tradestation is excellent for prototyping systems. Ninja is very strong too. There are other good products but those are the most accessible that I know. Wealth-Lab is also good but requires a Fidelity account and funded. Data analysis platforms like R, Python, and Matlab may also be useful. Metatrader is popular among Forex traders.

Beyond the programming, the more important skills are strong data analysis and creative thinking. While futures are arguably the most profitable markets/instruments to trade, they are some of the worst for deploying and developing trading systems because the amount required per system tends not to be insignificant.

If you really have a "decent size money" for trading then funding a 5k account for Tradestation should not require much thought and is worth it. NinjaTrader is popular because it is free and more open than other platforms. So, you will find more third party add-ons.

For you, I would advise the following:

1. Reassess why you got into trading. You may have hidden strengths or talents that could change the optimal plan.
2. Start with Tradestation and Easylanguage. It will be easier than attempting to learn C#. C# is my favorite general purpose programming language. However, Easylanguage is excellent for prototyping simple systems and should be easier to learn.
3. Set yourself a deadline for launching your new system. Make it something urgent. Give yourself let's say 90 days.
4. Launch whatever you have. If you can't blow 5k-10k then consider developing for Forex. MetaTrader is a platform you should look at in that case.
5. Now you can start learning.

One other word of caution, even most automated traders do monitor their systems actively.

Thank you so much tpredictor for your advice and input.


tpredictor View Post
My way of thinking has always been to derive from strengths. If you have a strong ability to read the market then discretionary trading can make sense.

I enjoy waking up and reading the charts and making decision on entry based predefined resistance and support and trendline. I enjoy reading the price.

However my backtesting of my rule based discretionary trading has not been properly documented, so all my data collect may be miscalculated per say. As you mentioned above, I need to properly backtest and collect the right data. I am currently working on this.



tpredictor View Post
I think you are setting yourself too many hurdles.

I am not sure I understand this.
Thanks, but it has to be done. If I have trading idea(s), I need to learn how to manual backtest it (50-100 trades) efficiently and then program it and backtest over a historical data. Is this not what other traders are doing? Its either this or continue forward testing a system that may not work in a year from now. Nothing gained in a year, but learning experiences and chart screen time.


tpredictor View Post
Beyond the programming, the more important skills are strong data analysis and creative thinking.

I agree. I recenetly purchased Building Winning Algorithmic Trading Systems from Kevin Davey. I believe my weakness is collecting and interperting data analysis. I believe over time, my creative will grow. I have strong logical systematic skills.


tpredictor View Post
For you, I would advise the following:

1. Reassess why you got into trading. You may have hidden strengths or talents that could change the optimal plan.
2. Start with Tradestation and Easylanguage. It will be easier than attempting to learn C#. C# is my favorite general purpose programming language. However, Easylanguage is excellent for prototyping simple systems and should be easier to learn.
3. Set yourself a deadline for launching your new system. Make it something urgent. Give yourself let's say 90 days.
4. Launch whatever you have. If you can't blow 5k-10k then consider developing for Forex. MetaTrader is a platform you should look at in that case.
5. Now you can start learning.

Thanks for the advise.

I got into trading to make additional money other then my full time, and I like analyical and systemtic thinking. And I enjoy making money is quick fashion based on my own idea and no boss.
Many have recommended Tradestation to me. Thank you. I like anyting easier.
I will not blowing any money, that is for sure. I will paper trade what every system(s) I develop and trade with 1 contract live and continue that way.

Thanks for your input.

 
 
Houston
 
 
Posts: 94 since Dec 2016
Thanks: 31 given, 45 received


tpredictor View Post
My way of thinking has always been to derive from strengths. If you have a strong ability to read the market then discretionary trading can make sense. If you have a strong programming and quantitative background then trading systems can make sense. It sounds like you fell down the trap of a type of quasi-mechanical style of trading that doesn't have any real advantage.

I think you are setting yourself too many hurdles. As part of a project, I was recently teaching a friend different base systems and she said, "I have to learn this perfectly". And, I was thinking, well uhm no you really don't have to learn it perfectly because I make mistakes all the time but you do have to understand it. It sounds like you are setting yourself a bar too high.

Yes, I agree Tradestation is excellent for prototyping systems. Ninja is very strong too. There are other good products but those are the most accessible that I know. Wealth-Lab is also good but requires a Fidelity account and funded. Data analysis platforms like R, Python, and Matlab may also be useful. Metatrader is popular among Forex traders.

Beyond the programming, the more important skills are strong data analysis and creative thinking. While futures are arguably the most profitable markets/instruments to trade, they are some of the worst for deploying and developing trading systems because the amount required per system tends not to be insignificant.

If you really have a "decent size money" for trading then funding a 5k account for Tradestation should not require much thought and is worth it. NinjaTrader is popular because it is free and more open than other platforms. So, you will find more third party add-ons.

For you, I would advise the following:

1. Reassess why you got into trading. You may have hidden strengths or talents that could change the optimal plan.
2. Start with Tradestation and Easylanguage. It will be easier than attempting to learn C#. C# is my favorite general purpose programming language. However, Easylanguage is excellent for prototyping simple systems and should be easier to learn.
3. Set yourself a deadline for launching your new system. Make it something urgent. Give yourself let's say 90 days.
4. Launch whatever you have. If you can't blow 5k-10k then consider developing for Forex. MetaTrader is a platform you should look at in that case.
5. Now you can start learning.

One other word of caution, even most automated traders do monitor their systems actively.

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

After some thoughts and your comments "My way of thinking has always been to derive from strengths. If you have a strong ability to read the market then discretionary trading can make sense. "

I decided to continue discretionary trading and focus more on manually backtesting my current system and recording the correct data in a spreadsheet for data analysis after some sample points.

If after +100 trades, if the system shows some profitability and I am confident it will work going forwards with no issues. I will forward test it live for another +50 or so trades.

While I am backtesting and forward testing, I will write down all my ideas as backtesting. Starring at the chart all day gives excellent ideas.

If and only if, I manually backtest a system over a 100 trades and it show profitability, I will program the system and backtest over +10 years. i will decide platform in the meanwhile.

This way, I am not jumping into programming without a good trade idea. In my opinion, it makes no sense to spend countless hours programming anything if I am not atleast 50% sure it will work.

What do you think?

 
 
North Carolina
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Favorite Futures: es
 
Posts: 644 since Nov 2011

I will try to address everything. If you have a method that is simple enough to be tested then you should certainly test it. However, most discretionary traders integrate information from multiple sources in such a way that either they can't be backtested or simulated in any sort of trivial way or can't fully be backtested.

I should add a couple notes on the above. First, I am not saying that methods can't be backtested or quantified but that some methods are more difficult. Certainly as one's quantitative fluency develops then the ability to backtest more difficult hypothesis will develop, as well. Also, I should note that most simple quasi-mechanical methods can be backtested at least to some degree.

I think you wanted to know what high level traders think and do. The hallmark is synthesizing and integrating multiple types of data in non trivial ways that includes or anticipates other traders positions, reactions, or market forces in multiple paradigms, time frames, and modalities. At the end, I will show by way of example of that of complex non linear thought processes. Beyond that, the best possess at least some superior task specific skills in tape reading, technical analysis, etc.

Backtesting is form of empiricism, i.e. reasoning from past or statistical experience, but has certain considerable limitations when it comes to the market. It is closely tied to the idea of the scientific method. The scientific method does not seek to prove but merely simply seeks to excludes things. In a similar way, one can argue that backtesting doesn't prove anything will work but merely excludes things that did not work in the past. Quantitative thought is typically required for backtesting and is often associated with superior results.

The testing of most trade ideas does not require countless hours. The countless hours is the process of trying to build and refine something that works because most things break down in backtesting. Yes, I think probably getting Tradestation and testing your ideas is a reasonable step forward.

Below hypothetical examples of the type of complex/multi-dimensional analysis a top level trader might use:

"Quantitative models price in oil below $60 over the 6 months. However, we speculate OPEC will work in concert to drive up prices. We believe that if oil gets above $60 then certain large traders who use the quantitative models may be forced to hedge to cover which could temporarily spike price higher. We will use our exceptional technical analysis and price action to weight the probability of our thesis playing out. But our idea would be for a spike above $60 to drive out the quants and then a return to the normal projected quantitative range."

Here is another hypothetical example of the type of structure/analysis that professional traders might use,

"We have a quantitative model suggesting that the optimal stop level for the S&P 500 is around 2193. Our long intermediate models are thus positions long with a stop below this point. However, our combination of sentiment analysis and shorter term models are bearish. Our quantitative short day trading model is a trend based system. However, we will set a target of 2193 because we know that this will be the stop level where liquidity is highest which makes a good target and also represents an area where new longs may enter."

Again quantitative information is integrated in these examples but integrated in non simple/linear fashion. The optimal stop loss used as a trading target in one example under specific conditions. But yes, developing greater quantitative fluency will probably be as valuable as backtesting and backtesting is one method to develop that. These are static examples most-likely used by swing traders. A day trader is going to be doing similar analysis but in real-time. I do not mean to convey that trading methods that work have to be complex or at adds with the quantitative data. In most cases, the trader will want to take advantage of the historical probabilities. But merely that the hallmark of higher level trading is the ability to think about the market in multiple modalities and frameworks simultaneously. It could be as simple as combining market sentiment with technical analysis and behavioral understanding of other traders. Another example..

"A tape reader gets long an overnight rally before an important market event, i.e. report based on real-time tape read and technical analysis. However, this trader knows that it is unlikely that large traders will position before the event. After the market has run up 8 points, the tape reader is paying close attention already anticipating a potential sell off. Some unusual selling starts to hit the market and the tape reader hits out of the market with 7 points of profit." The trader didn't wait for some trailing stop loss to be hit but instead read a shift in the market that was already anticipated and acted on it at the opportune time. This required understanding the sentiment of multiple types of traders. The trader used superior tape reading and technical analysis skills, i.e. developed over time but also was able to integrate anticipatory other information.

There is one other shtick that is somewhat grating which is the idea that if something can't be falsified then it doesn't exist. It is powerful but false narrative. It merely means it can't be measured and most jobs pay more in line with the difficulty in measuring job performance. For example, take 2 CEOs. One CEO is very technical, very up on the market and very creative. Always innovating new ideas. Another CEO is not as up-to-date on the market, not as creative, but is very good at improving existing processes. Which CEO is best? The answer is we don't know. Even the performance quarter to quarter in the stock doesn't tell us. Because imagine the CEO that is improving processes is improving the bottom line on the short-term basis but might be missing huge changes that will eventually cause the company to collapse. On the other hand, the visionary CEO might be losing a lot of money but positioning the company to become a powerhouse on down the line. i.e It true that if something doesn't exist then it can't be measured. It is not true that if something can't be measured that it does not exist. I.e. instruments may not be precise enough or of the right type for measuring


Last edited by tpredictor; December 30th, 2016 at 10:39 AM.
 
 
Cookeville, TN
 
 
Posts: 49 since Oct 2011
Thanks: 11 given, 16 received

Re:

Hello goodoboy,
For your situation and aims, sounds like Ninja would be a good first step. Looks like a lot of the more-traveled traders here have migrated to SierraChart (C++), but if you're comfortable in C# then yea stick to Ninja.

Check out Robert Carver's book 'Systematic Trading' and his blog: qoppac.blogspot.co.uk - TONS of well-qualified treatises written by him on the realities of designing/building/testing the core framework and strategies, as well as free access to his open-source trading platform, pysystemtrade (not 'beta' release-grade per his disclaimer; written in Python). I think he's got both feet on the ground in his philosophy and approach, versus some of the alternatives around the interwebs.

(Mod note: I'm not a vendor, not advertising Rob's book, just a recommendation)

The following user says Thank You to ClutchAce for this post:
 
 
Houston
 
 
Posts: 94 since Dec 2016
Thanks: 31 given, 45 received


tpredictor View Post
I will try to address everything. If you have a method that is simple enough to be tested then you should certainly test it. However, most discretionary traders integrate information from multiple sources in such a way that either they can't be backtested or simulated in any sort of trivial way or can't fully be backtested.

I should add a couple notes on the above. First, I am not saying that methods can't be backtested or quantified but that some methods are more difficult. Certainly as one's quantitative fluency develops then the ability to backtest more difficult hypothesis will develop, as well. Also, I should note that most simple quasi-mechanical methods can be backtested at least to some degree.

I think you wanted to know what high level traders think and do. The hallmark is synthesizing and integrating multiple types of data in non trivial ways that includes or anticipates other traders positions, reactions, or market forces in multiple paradigms, time frames, and modalities. At the end, I will show by way of example of that of complex non linear thought processes. Beyond that, the best possess at least some superior task specific skills in tape reading, technical analysis, etc.

Backtesting is form of empiricism, i.e. reasoning from past or statistical experience, but has certain considerable limitations when it comes to the market. It is closely tied to the idea of the scientific method. The scientific method does not seek to prove but merely simply seeks to excludes things. In a similar way, one can argue that backtesting doesn't prove anything will work but merely excludes things that did not work in the past. Quantitative thought is typically required for backtesting and is often associated with superior results.

The testing of most trade ideas does not require countless hours. The countless hours is the process of trying to build and refine something that works because most things break down in backtesting. Yes, I think probably getting Tradestation and testing your ideas is a reasonable step forward.

Below hypothetical examples of the type of complex/multi-dimensional analysis a top level trader might use:

"Quantitative models price in oil below $60 over the 6 months. However, we speculate OPEC will work in concert to drive up prices. We believe that if oil gets above $60 then certain large traders who use the quantitative models may be forced to hedge to cover which could temporarily spike price higher. We will use our exceptional technical analysis and price action to weight the probability of our thesis playing out. But our idea would be for a spike above $60 to drive out the quants and then a return to the normal projected quantitative range."

Here is another hypothetical example of the type of structure/analysis that professional traders might use,

"We have a quantitative model suggesting that the optimal stop level for the S&P 500 is around 2193. Our long intermediate models are thus positions long with a stop below this point. However, our combination of sentiment analysis and shorter term models are bearish. Our quantitative short day trading model is a trend based system. However, we will set a target of 2193 because we know that this will be the stop level where liquidity is highest which makes a good target and also represents an area where new longs may enter."

Again quantitative information is integrated in these examples but integrated in non simple/linear fashion. The optimal stop loss used as a trading target in one example under specific conditions. But yes, developing greater quantitative fluency will probably be as valuable as backtesting and backtesting is one method to develop that. These are static examples most-likely used by swing traders. A day trader is going to be doing similar analysis but in real-time. I do not mean to convey that trading methods that work have to be complex or at adds with the quantitative data. In most cases, the trader will want to take advantage of the historical probabilities. But merely that the hallmark of higher level trading is the ability to think about the market in multiple modalities and frameworks simultaneously. It could be as simple as combining market sentiment with technical analysis and behavioral understanding of other traders. Another example..

"A tape reader gets long an overnight rally before an important market event, i.e. report based on real-time tape read and technical analysis. However, this trader knows that it is unlikely that large traders will position before the event. After the market has run up 8 points, the tape reader is paying close attention already anticipating a potential sell off. Some unusual selling starts to hit the market and the tape reader hits out of the market with 7 points of profit." The trader didn't wait for some trailing stop loss to be hit but instead read a shift in the market that was already anticipated and acted on it at the opportune time. This required understanding the sentiment of multiple types of traders. The trader used superior tape reading and technical analysis skills, i.e. developed over time but also was able to integrate anticipatory other information.

There is one other shtick that is somewhat grating which is the idea that if something can't be falsified then it doesn't exist. It is powerful but false narrative. It merely means it can't be measured and most jobs pay more in line with the difficulty in measuring job performance. For example, take 2 CEOs. One CEO is very technical, very up on the market and very creative. Always innovating new ideas. Another CEO is not as up-to-date on the market, not as creative, but is very good at improving existing processes. Which CEO is best? The answer is we don't know. Even the performance quarter to quarter in the stock doesn't tell us. Because imagine the CEO that is improving processes is improving the bottom line on the short-term basis but might be missing huge changes that will eventually cause the company to collapse. On the other hand, the visionary CEO might be losing a lot of money but positioning the company to become a powerhouse on down the line. i.e It true that if something doesn't exist then it can't be measured. It is not true that if something can't be measured that it does not exist. I.e. instruments may not be precise enough or of the right type for measuring

Hello tpredictor,

Happy New Year, sorry for late response.

I really appreciate your response. I will need to read your response about 3 times to understand it. But definitely good information to know and learn from. Everything I do pertaining must be simple and straight forward.

My plan is as follows.

1. Re-Write my trading ideas/stragies so its clear and robotic thinking. I like trading resistance and support breakout trading because I have an edge with defining support and resistance daily. My discretionary trading is simple.

2. Manually backtest of 30-50 trades for each strategy idea.

3. Collect the right data in spreadsheet I have built today for the 30 trades. This part is challenging for me cause I manually backtest and want to make sure I record the correct criteria for data analyzing. I believe I have the spreadsheet ready to go.

4. If and only if the backtesting reveals a profitable system from 30-50 trades, backtest and record data for +100 trades.

5. Collect the right data in spreadsheet I have built today for the 100 trades. Review and analyze the date for future profitability.

6. If and only if step 5 is profitability, I will proceed to programming (I will have to learn) the system in TradeStation or NinjaTrader (still undecided) and confirm profitability over historical years of data.

7. If step 6 is profitable, sim trade for a month.

8. If step 7 is profitable, go live with one contract. And proceed from there.

Step 1 will be the challenge, but I have to keep things simple.

I like the manual backtesting because:

1. It tells me in detail how the system will perform and all the "what if this", "oh what about this scenario" , "what will the computer program do for this situation" , "oh, look this would be a good strategy to test later, let me write it down", "oh, I better record this parameter in my spreadsheet, cause I will need it analyze it", "this is too complex and too many what if factors, scratch it and lets try again"

2. Price action chart experience. Lets me review many 130 different charts for more learning along with day to day forward testing.

3. Better system design on paper for when its time to program.

4. Enjoyable. I actually like sitting down recording data chart for chart. It helps builds confidence in what I am doing.

There is some negative to manual testing such as kids bothering me. Or distractions. Problem solved with going to library for 1-3 hours and staying focus and fast.

I believe this approach is simple and doable for me. Along with learning price action. Overall, I do prefer discretionary trading, so we see how step 1 thru 5 goes. I may just stop them and skip programming and get right to live and discretionary trading a system.

The bottom line for a newbie or non profitable trader is to have a plan and keep on learning. Read, understand, keep it simple by all means.

 
 
Houston
 
 
Posts: 94 since Dec 2016
Thanks: 31 given, 45 received


ClutchAce View Post
Hello goodoboy,
For your situation and aims, sounds like Ninja would be a good first step. Looks like a lot of the more-traveled traders here have migrated to SierraChart (C++), but if you're comfortable in C# then yea stick to Ninja.

Check out Robert Carver's book 'Systematic Trading' and his blog: qoppac.blogspot.co.uk - TONS of well-qualified treatises written by him on the realities of designing/building/testing the core framework and strategies, as well as free access to his open-source trading platform, pysystemtrade (not 'beta' release-grade per his disclaimer; written in Python). I think he's got both feet on the ground in his philosophy and approach, versus some of the alternatives around the interwebs.

(Mod note: I'm not a vendor, not advertising Rob's book, just a recommendation)

Thank you so much ClutchAce for the response.

I am currently reading Building Winning Algorithmic Trading Systems by Kevin Davey and will add Robert's book on the list as well.

Yes, I agree, NinjaTrader will be best for me right now. Its simple and don't want to get to overwhelmed. Plus I can trial for 30 days. TradeStation has no trial, unless deposit money to them. Its all learning and one thing I learned over the course of 2 weeks is, it is best to know how other traders are making money, not just discretionary trading.

I went to the blog and been reviewing, very professional so far.

Thanks,


 



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