The sharing/not sharing dilemma - Traders Hideout | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


The sharing/not sharing dilemma
Updated: Views / Replies:9,924 / 32
Created: by xplorer Attachments:1

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 100,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 1  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

The sharing/not sharing dilemma

  #1 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker/Data: S5
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,853 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,014 given, 10,664 received

The sharing/not sharing dilemma


Hulk View Post
If I had the control or power to do this, I would have this embedded in everyone's subconsciousness. You cannot make money trading by "following" some vendor. Just cannot, cannot, cannot.

No one shares their primary money making system - NO ONE! I will never be convinced that someone, out of the goodness of his heart or "to give back to the community" is sharing his edge. This is THE most competitive business in the world folks. People just do not share their edge. That's the truth.

When you go work for a hedge fund, even as a short-term consulting gig, the first thing you sign is a non-disclosure, non-compete agreement. Why do you think that is the case?

I second BM's advice: stop chasing vendors of any kind. Please.

Quoting Hulk from another thread, and I wanted to open up this up for discussion.


Personally I believe in Hulk's first statement

Quoting 
You cannot make money trading by "following" some vendor. Just cannot, cannot, cannot.


But I'd like to bounce off a few thoughts on the second one

Quoting 
No one shares their primary money making system - NO ONE! I will never be convinced that someone, out of the goodness of his heart or "to give back to the community" is sharing his edge. This is THE most competitive business in the world folks. People just do not share their edge. That's the truth.


While trading is certainly one of the most competitive activities, I do wonder if nobody really shares their primary money-making methodology.
  • For instance, I do remember John Grady saying something like "hell, if I had other 1,000 traders have my same idea, we would be able to push the market higher/lower" type-thing. His logic would thus be "sharing is in my interest"

  • I also think that there may be people who perhaps are already wealthy and, while their trading methodology further adds to their wealth, they do not mind sharing what they do because they don't need to live off it, on a basis not too distant from someone giving some of their money to charity

  • There's also a psychological component to some, which may be rooted in self-affirmation, self-validation, higher status among a similar group of peers, filling a void of some kind, or simply meeting a mental need, whatever that may be. At the end of the day, if nobody ever did anything for free, there would be no volunteers


Note: With the above I'm not suggesting that trading is a 'gentlemen's club' (credit: @DionysusToast) where everyone is nice to each other. If I had the capital and skills to trap other traders and make money in the process I would not hesitate myself. But my contention is that there must be a percentage of people, however tiny, that don't mind sharing.



So I'd be interested to hear your views. Do you think that nobody truly shares what they do, or do you think that some do?


EDIT: To clarify, for those who haven't read Surviving Day Trading, DionysusToast does not believe trading is a gentlemen's club either


Last edited by xplorer; November 4th, 2016 at 08:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
  #2 (permalink)
Quick Summary
Quick Summary Post

Quick Summary is created and edited by users like you... Add FAQ's, Links and other Relevant Information by clicking the edit button in the lower right hand corner of this message.

 
  #3 (permalink)
Seattle, WA
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: Indices
 
stoicbuddha's Avatar
 
Posts: 84 since Feb 2012
Thanks: 430 given, 87 received


I agree that a trader should not follow a vendor. They will never have the level of confidence that a trader who creates their own edge does. I wholeheartedly disagree with Hulk about traders sharing their edge. I have seen a few traders (like LBR in her Trading Habits webinar) who will show you charts, indicators, everything necessary to trade the way they do.

The truth is, for the most part, it doesn't matter. In my opinion, most people who come into trading come from other careers or have some educational knowledge. They could be pilots, doctors, lawyers, college grads, carpenters, whatever. Somehow, when it comes to trading, they forget the hard work it good for them to reach a goal, like the four years to graduate college, the years of med school to become a doctor, the private, instrument and commercial pilot training they had to take. They see the lifestyle as portrayed in the media and look for the easiest (ie laziest) way to achieve the same thing in trading. 90%+ don't really want to put in the work to achieve that goal which is why they look for systems, vendors, etc.

This is why I say, share your edge, it won't matter because most wont put in the work required to make it their own by mastering it and learning enough market knowledge.

Again, all my opinion.

Our life is our own today. Tomorrow you will be dust, a shade, a tale that is told. Live mindful of death, the hour flies.
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to stoicbuddha for this post:
 
  #4 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.jigsawtrading.com 
Bangkok
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts.NET, S5, Ninj
Broker/Data: AMP, S5, IB
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Jigsaw Trading's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,927 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 806 given, 10,113 received


xplorer View Post
Quoting Hulk from another thread, and I wanted to open up this up for discussion.


Personally I believe in Hulk's first statement



But I'd like to bounce off a few thoughts on the second one



While trading is certainly one of the most competitive activities, I do wonder if nobody really shares their primary money-making methodology.
  • For instance, I do remember John Grady saying something like "hell, if I had other 1,000 traders have my same idea, we would be able to push the market higher/lower" type-thing. His logic would thus be "sharing is in my interest"

  • I also think that there may be people who perhaps are already wealthy and, while their trading methodology further adds to their wealth, they do not mind sharing what they do because they don't need to live off it, on a basis not too distant from someone giving some of their money to charity

  • There's also a psychological component to some, which may be rooted in self-affirmation, self-validation, higher status among a similar group of peers, filling a void of some kind, or simply meeting a mental need, whatever that may be. At the end of the day, if nobody ever did anything for free, there would be no volunteers


Note: With the above I'm not suggesting that trading is a 'gentlemen's club' (credit: @DionysusToast) where everyone is nice to each other. If I had the capital and skills to trap other traders and make money in the process I would not hesitate myself. But my contention is that there must be a percentage of people, however tiny, that don't mind sharing.



So I'd be interested to hear your views. Do you think that nobody truly shares what they do, or do you think that some do?


EDIT: To clarify, for those who haven't read Surviving Day Trading, DionysusToast does not believe trading is a gentlemen's club either

My take on this is fairly simple - you can lead a horse to water but you can't tell him when to buy and sell

Show a trader how to make money and they'll say "that looks a bit complicated, I think I'll look for something simpler".

My exposure to the prop world is one where an decent traders teach interns. Interns mayl see a superstar trader in the shop but until they "pay their dues", those great traders wont help them out. If they are still around after 18-24 months, they might find that the trader they aspire to be like is helping them out a bit more. It's not snobbishness - it's just a matter of seeing a lot of people come & go.

In other words - in professional trading, the baseline is that someone who knows how to profit will teach you - they may not be the best trader in the shop - but they can teach you how to trade - even then 80% of those aspiring traders will fail.

It's like any sport - you might be taught by a coach that was good in his prime but not a world pro. It's still down to you whether you actually make anything of it & even then a lot of it is about whether you were born a certain way or not.

The problem in the retail world is that there's too many people that don't know how to trade that are teaching people how to trade. That muddies the water somewhat and horses never drink muddy water...

If you have any questions about the products or services provided, please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 11 users say Thank You to Jigsaw Trading for this post:
 
  #5 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Memphis TN
 
Trading Experience: None
Platform: ToS
Broker/Data: TDA
Favorite Futures: None
 
Pariah Carey's Avatar
 
Posts: 805 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 147 given, 2,240 received

I agree that with trading you can tell the whole world about your system or style, and it's not going to affect your edge. It may different in other industries, like where you've actually created a product and want to patent it, but you can't really patent a trading system.

Richard Dennis said we could publish the turtle rules in the paper and still most people wouldn't be able to make money off it (though they kept the actual system a closely guarded secret). It just goes to show you that psych, discipline and money management are the true edge, not indicators or a system.

But don't say that to the quants.

Money make ya handsome
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Pariah Carey for this post:
 
  #6 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker/Data: S5
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,853 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,014 given, 10,664 received


DionysusToast View Post
My take on this is fairly simple - you can lead a horse to water but you can't tell him when to buy and sell

Show a trader how to make money and they'll say "that looks a bit complicated, I think I'll look for something simpler".

My exposure to the prop world is one where an decent traders teach interns. Interns mayl see a superstar trader in the shop but until they "pay their dues", those great traders wont help them out. If they are still around after 18-24 months, they might find that the trader they aspire to be like is helping them out a bit more. It's not snobbishness - it's just a matter of seeing a lot of people come & go.

In other words - in professional trading, the baseline is that someone who knows how to profit will teach you - they may not be the best trader in the shop - but they can teach you how to trade - even then 80% of those aspiring traders will fail.

It's like any sport - you might be taught by a coach that was good in his prime but not a world pro. It's still down to you whether you actually make anything of it & even then a lot of it is about whether you were born a certain way or not.

The problem in the retail world is that there's too many people that don't know how to trade that are teaching people how to trade. That muddies the water somewhat and horses never drink muddy water...


Pariah Carey View Post
I agree that with trading you can tell the whole world about your system or style, and it's not going to affect your edge. It may different in other industries, like where you've actually created a product and want to patent it, but you can't really patent a trading system.

Richard Dennis said we could publish the turtle rules in the paper and still most people wouldn't be able to make money off it (though they kept the actual system a closely guarded secret). It just goes to show you that psych, discipline and money management are the true edge, not indicators or a system.

But don't say that to the quants.

Thanks gents.

So, do I infer from your posts above that you two believe some people are open to sharing their primary trading methodology? Sorry if you said so and it wasn't clear.

Reply With Quote
 
  #7 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Memphis TN
 
Trading Experience: None
Platform: ToS
Broker/Data: TDA
Favorite Futures: None
 
Pariah Carey's Avatar
 
Posts: 805 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 147 given, 2,240 received


xplorer View Post
Thanks gents.

So, do I infer from your posts above that you two believe some people are open to sharing their primary trading methodology? Sorry if you said so and it wasn't clear.

Sure, plenty of it here on fio. Other social media too like twitter, blogs, etc. But big banks and funds? Lol. It would not surprise me if they'd have a person killed before compromising their proprietary systems.

Money make ya handsome
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Pariah Carey for this post:
 
  #8 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.jigsawtrading.com 
Bangkok
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts.NET, S5, Ninj
Broker/Data: AMP, S5, IB
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Jigsaw Trading's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,927 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 806 given, 10,113 received


xplorer View Post
Thanks gents.

So, do I infer from your posts above that you two believe some people are open to sharing their primary trading methodology? Sorry if you said so and it wasn't clear.

Yes - go to any prop shop & they will teach you how to trade.

Even so - 80% of interns still fail.

If you have any questions about the products or services provided, please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Jigsaw Trading for this post:
 
  #9 (permalink)
Florida
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Favorite Futures: ES, CL
 
trendwaves's Avatar
 
Posts: 697 since Dec 2012
Thanks: 2,864 given, 2,487 received

This really is a conundrum.

On the one hand, this is one of the most competitive endeavors we can undertake. The markets are highly efficient, meaning to find and then sustain a mathematical edge is really hard to do. So, if I invest my resources (time, intellect/experience and money) into developing a legitimate edge in the market, how does it benefit me to freely hand that out at the front door like Halloween candy ?

On the other hand, I am here to learn (as are most who come here), and I am grateful to those who have helped me either directly or indirectly. Having gained that direct benefit I felt motivated to 'give back to the community', and have found a few small opportunities to give back in my own way. So it can be a win-win if we each give of our time and talent, and as we all know there are many contributors here of exceptional talent for which we can all be grateful.

Now here's the rub. When someone freely shares their valuable work on a forum of this high level of public visibility, what is to stop a business enterprise from "monetizing" that contribution for their own enrichment (meaning a vendor who steals and markets (sells for profit) the indicators, strategy, or trading concepts/method). Personally, I am not particularly concerned with an individual private trader using anything they learn here for their own personal use. It has been my practical experience given a trading method which has a consistent edge, the majority of individuals don't have the capacity to capitalize on that edge (most will still find a way to consistently lose money). There is an "it factor" required to sustain consistent profitability, a few individuals have an aptitude for this business, but sorry to say the hard truth is, most don't have what it takes.

Be Patient and Trade Smart
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to trendwaves for this post:
 
  #10 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Chicago Illinois USA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Broker/Data: IB, ToS
Favorite Futures: /ES, US Equities/Options
 
wldman's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,692 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 1,403 given, 4,732 received

Interesting, but not a new...


question. Quite complicated, I believe, and on many different levels. If anyone wants opinion on the various segments of the business, algo, HFT, hedge fund, floor etc. I'd be happy to expand my points to include those.

But to keep the focus on what I'd view as the typical participant here or maybe better what the typical participant here claims, is perhaps the best place to start?

Of course a fio member should share everything, it is the purpose of the forum. EVERYONE that comes here does so to gain information of some type about something. Short of your tax i.d. there isn't really anything you could share here that would hurt you.

In fairness I did not start here with this view because when I came here I was relatively new to screen based futures trading. A pro for sure, but not a pro at this segment...and I'm still not close to objective.

Here is the thing: Technical analysis, that is to say "indicators" is not a panacea. In fact I would say that the use of lines, dots, colors etc on charts actually hurts more people than it helps. Few people understand the "math", fewer understand the relationships at work. Past that every data point is HISTORICAL and any illusion to predictive powers leans toward being spurious. EXCEPT, for me, in two ways.

1) the stuff I look at on a chart is a visual road map it includes possible destinations and landmarks The view and the interpretation are unique to my hallucination.

2) indicators are representations of where we believe others might act.

So there is no authentic edge here, rather, this is what I see, this is what others see. How do I prepare to respond to the actions of others.

Fundamentals, market internals or news cycle aside.

The cognitive element "how we think and decide" is different for everyone. So we need to consider from the broadest view possible, those things that are going on around us. Then we trim down our view based hopefully based on data and hopefully in a valid way...one that is recognizable,(based on our map) and repeatable because the relationships are sometimes valid though not likely causal. That is saying that our map and our experience allows us to get lucky more often that not. But the important part is still coming.

All indicators are derived from very limited data points. Open, high, low, close and volume. Yes it is a generalization, but it is valid for this purpose. I will type all the time ...series or confluence of non-colinear technical indicators. That is to say, make your map using different data. One volatility measure, one closing price, one volume..the receipes get way too complicated and the meal is often never served.

With less than ten separate data points, we only get to make one decision. Buy or Sell! Even how much we make or lose is fairly vague. So I think people apply pretty indicators to price charts seeking clarity. This is mostly chasing the wind because price is very simply the close of the last bar plus or minus a random number. Yeah, you can throw stats on that and say up close begets up close, but that is true till its not and even then up one tick or up 20 ticks.

The thing we can add to luck in our hallucination is 1) our action decision buy/sell based on how we anticipate other participants might respond or 2) a rough estimation of how much we are willing make or lose.

You master short term directional speculation by being expert in judging the response of participants to o,h,l,c and volume based on their hallucination.

So, if I had the goose that laid golden eggs and I told you where I kept her rather than asking when do I leave the farm someone would ask, does she ever shit diamonds. There is no secret indi or setting, no magic combination. Winning is internal and a trait developed over time by being honest about what you do and how you respond.

Sharing should be done IMO, to collect recon on what you might be able to improve in your own approach. If you are scared that your sharing will reveal the secrets of the ages and hurt your ability to execute your three lot profitably, you are a loon....and probably not making any money.

Parade gonna start.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to wldman for this post:

Reply



futures io > > > The sharing/not sharing dilemma

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)
 

futures io is celebrating 10-years w/ over $18,000 in prizes!

Right now
 

$250 Amazon Gift Cards with our "Thanks Contest" challenge!

Right now
 

Show us your trading desks and win over $5,000 in prizes w/Jigsaw Trading

September
 

The Spirituality of Trading w/Dr Brett Steenbarger

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sharing data between two indicators Erez NinjaTrader Programming 8 May 9th, 2014 10:01 AM
Chart sharing para6ut Emini and Emicro Index Futures Trading 4 December 2nd, 2013 03:46 PM
New and sharing my plan. Manshevits Beginners and Introductions 5 March 2nd, 2013 06:34 AM
Market data sharing rounder8 The Elite Circle 5 May 27th, 2012 03:47 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:03 AM. (this page content is cached, log in for real-time version)

Copyright © 2019 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts