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How do you guys deal with this?....Intraday trading = gambling


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How do you guys deal with this?....Intraday trading = gambling

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  #1 (permalink)
 KatieD 
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I am a developing trader who is still in sim mode. So in other words, I love the idea of becoming a consistant and skilled trader, but I am still really insecure about it since I have not yet developed my "edge".

I will occationally come across someone who, when I tell them I am working on becoming a trader, will look down their nose at me and say, "well, professional gamblers win at first too.... before they lose everything because eventually the numbers catch up to them and their luck runs out". Then sometimes you will see write ups like this......

Some Cautionary Advice for the Novice Day Trader | Investopedia

Yes, it is Investopedia. So not the most sophisticated source. However, why would people feel the need to put sentiment like that out there if they did not see some truth in it.

For myself, I like to remember that everything is on the spectrum of "gambling" from crossing the street to playing roulette. The difference of where you are on that spectrum, I think, is based on information available and the ability to apply skill. With roulette there is no information to base a decision on and skill cannot be applied. With poker and black jack (ahead of roulette on the spectrum). You still have very limited information but skill can start to come into play. However, you are still at the mercy of what hand is dealt to you and the fact that once you are in, you cannot walk away. Trading is much further up the spectrum in my opinion. Information is somewhat limited (information risk vs. price risk) BUT unlike gambling, you don't have to play every hand that is dealt to you. You can wait and play the ones that you recognize to have the highest probability of success. In this way, we inject a much higher amount of skill in comparison to typical "gambling".

All, that being said, trading is still highly based in chance. Sometimes I'm scared I'm just deluding myself by thinking I will be able to develop or recognize a process that give me a positive expectancy. How do you all deal with this nagging question????

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  #3 (permalink)
 ratfink 
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KatieD View Post
How do you all deal with this nagging question????

Slowly, and a step at a time. You write in a manner that suggests you will get it if it's meant to be.

The main thing to remember is that it's not gambling, it's just handling total uncertainty with probability somewhere in the background.

FIO is an immense resource and a great place to start, after that work hard, have fun and good walks.

Cheers

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 MacroNinja 
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Let's assume for a moment that you are dealing in actual assets (stocks, bonds, currencies, etc) rather than options or non-deliverable futures. The biggest difference at the end of the day is that you own the asset, not the 'right' to make a bet with a possible payout.

If I put a bet on a roulette table, the value of the bet expires the moment the wheel stops and the bet is over. However, regardless of if Apple stock goes up or down from the moment I buy it, I still own Apple stock. Owning Apple stock doesn't ever catch up with you in a law of large numbers situation unless Apple goes bankrupt or starts to lose money.

Your job then, is to A) not over trade and over pay commissions, and B) properly value when the stock is under valued (buy) or over valued (sell)

The key skill set remains the same, which is assessing the future value of what you are putting your money behind. However, a gambler has to be right in a very short time window, plays by the casino's static odds, and doesn't own any assets.

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Rory
 
 
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Once day you will realise that you know what you don't know which is a great feeling. Thats when you may get really irritated or defensive with people who in trying to help, make your burden heavier.

I stopped telling people what I did when I was learning. When asked socially I'd say I make icecream or not mention I had changed from my old career. Seemed to end the conversation and everyone likes icecream I can make it so its not a major lie.

Not everyone makes it to pro but as people have said, money management is key though you can't be too timid. Setbacks which will happen should not become disasters when leverage is respected.

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 KatieD 
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MacroNinja View Post
Let's assume for a moment that you are dealing in actual assets (stocks, bonds, currencies, etc) rather than options or non-deliverable futures. The biggest difference at the end of the day is that you own the asset, not the 'right' to make a bet with a possible payout.

If I put a bet on a roulette table, the value of the bet expires the moment the wheel stops and the bet is over. However, regardless of if Apple stock goes up or down from the moment I buy it, I still own Apple stock. Owning Apple stock doesn't ever catch up with you in a law of large numbers situation unless Apple goes bankrupt or starts to lose money.

Your job then, is to A) not over trade and over pay commissions, and B) properly value when the stock is under valued (buy) or over valued (sell)

The key skill set remains the same, which is assessing the future value of what you are putting your money behind. However, a gambler has to be right in a very short time window, plays by the casino's static odds, and doesn't own any assets.

I think you have just described why longer term trades or investing is less considered to be gambling. That sort of market participation is also NOT a zero sum game. Intraday trading IS a zero sum game. That point is the reason day trading is so contraversal. Why do I think I can win against big money and those with possible material advantages?

I actually take comfort in this image.....


The big sharks can compete with each other all they want. I'm one of those scavenger fish going after the scraps with my 1 or 2 lots! If you think more deeply about it, perhaps there IS a symbiotic relationship between small retail traders and the big guys.

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 xplorer 
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KatieD View Post
I think you have just described why longer term trades or investing is less considered to be gambling. That sort of market participation is also NOT a zero sum game. Intraday trading IS a zero sum game. That point is the reason day trading is so contraversal. Why do I think I can win against big money and those with possible material advantages?

Hi Katie

I believe intraday trading is less of a gamble than holding positions overnight. This is particularly true in my case where I would not be comfortable sleeping at night knowing I had open positions.

Note this is an assessment of someone that right now is playing with limited capital and less than two years experience in the markets. It may be that my mindset will change with time.

But for now, thinking about a trader who is just starting, my view is that intraday trading yields less risk because of the limited understanding they have of the markets. This is especially true around sensitive times when the market could gap down or up which could see them being on the wrong side fairly easily.

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 ratfink 
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KatieD View Post
I think you have just described why longer term trades or investing is less considered to be gambling.

Only considered as such by those who like to sell it.

There's a lot of selling going on for the returns of the next 10 years.

Putting money in anybody else's hands is just as much a gamble, it's just that they don't let on what they don't know, so it doesn't feel like it.

We can only make best-effort informed guesses on any timeframe.

Cheers

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 DavidHP 
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KatieD View Post
How do you guys deal with this?....Intraday trading = gambling

I used to get this question a lot.
Mostly from my business associates.
But not much anymore...

The reason is because of the way I handled the question:

One day at lunch, the head of the company was sitting at my table at lunch.
The table had 12 of the top people in the company.
This was in February when in the last 12 months, the S&P was down about +45%.

After lunch, the question came from the president toward me.
"I hear you are a trader. In my opinion, that is nothing but gambling."

This was my reply:
"Yes I am a trader. But may I ask you a question?"
"I know you have corporate 401K."
"Can you tell me how much profit your 401K made in the last year?"

He said.
"I really don't know, I don't follow it that closely."

I said.
"Let me tell you how much... Your 401K is down 47% in the last 12 months"
"However, my trading / gambling account is up 28% during that same period."
"So if trading is gambling, I would rather be a gambler."

After that, no one in the company has ever said my trading was gambling.
(and no, I did not loose my job)

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 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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@KatieD Many have asked this question on this forum, yet I think that you have phrased your questions well and intelligently. I will attempt to answer it with a broad view as I perceive the behavior of the retail trader.

First, the psychology that is associated with trading is very complex and in fact I call it dark psychology, because you or anyone else for that mater, can not always interpret his/her behavior and the motivation behind it. Some things are just DNA. Nevertheless, a belief system that you have about trading will be reflected in your actions. If you think after each trade you place ,whether it is a gamble or a methodical move, I assure you that you will end up gambling.

The market has a random component. Those who don't have a method meet this randomness more frequently(in my opinion). Namely, those who have a "feel" about what will happen typically get stopped out and blame the market being a gambling place. Losses are always interpret as gamble, and wins as good interpretations of chart formations, order flow, etc.

When you use words like "consistent", be very careful. The way you define success in this business will have (again in my opinion) direct affect how long you stay in this business. I suggest that you look at some successful traders with long term record. There are many CTAs (Commodity Trading Advisers who run Managed Futures accounts) who have a 5-10 year track record, and it will allow you to see the strategies they use along with the month to month fluctuations.
I believe this will give you a different perspective, albeit realistic, as far as what defines success or lack of.

I wish you well.

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 treydog999 
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The answer for me is not in the making or losing money, or in the time frame. its in the expectancy.

You can win a lot on a roulette table if you hit a 0 with all your chips on it. That profit does not mean you did not gamble.

You either have mathematically positive expectation or you don't.

HFT trade in the micro seconds are they gamblers? Absolutely not.

Time frame is not the issue, the edge your system has is.

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davidtaylor
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treydog999 View Post
The answer for me is not in the making or losing money, or in the time frame. its in the expectancy.

You can win a lot on a roulette table if you hit a 0 with all your chips on it. That profit does not mean you did not gamble.

You either have mathematically positive expectation or you don't.

HFT trade in the micro seconds are they gamblers? Absolutely not.

Time frame is not the issue, the edge your system has is.

You do not know your expectancy before trading though, you can guess it, but essentially you are always gambling based on the assumption that you have a positive expectancy.

HFT absolutely are gambling, a lot of high frequency trading fails and loses a lot of money, in the markets anything can happen and that uncertainty is applicable to any trader.

Poker is also gambling, and you can have a positive expectancy.

I know 'gambling' is a dirty word that we want to avoid but it's best you accept and work with the fact that trading is gambling than try to pretend otherwise. This isn't a bad thing, it simply means that the markets are uncertain and do not always have underlying logic or reasoning, knowing this - we can understand what we do not know and use this to benefit our decision making without reasoning flaws or behavioral illusions.

To those that try to discourage you to 'gamble' in the markets, tell them plain and simple: You choose risk and adventure than stability and boredom, and are prepared to accept your fate as winning, or losing.

Finally, you must make a choice: Are you going to take on the challenge of consistent profitability, knowing the possibility you might fail, or will you not - it's really that simple, once you've made that choice and committed, it doesn't matter what others think.

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 Cloudy 
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What helped me was eventually seeing some "live" trading and believing someone else could have at least a 60% edge. Just as important is managing a trade and a system to get out of it.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/the-loneliness-of-success.219181/page-9
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/fulltime-trader-loner.269090/

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/anyone-not-making-200k-a-year-from-trading-is-a-piker.276225/
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/what-is-the-worst-one-day-loss-you-ever-had.74408/

An example strategy:


Also, if you haven't done so, recommended to check https://www.tradingschools.org
I don't believe it's a completely random walk because the big money really move the markets and often try to fool retailers. However, the edge is so fine to walk to be profitable in a session i.e.
trading is so hard, it approaches gambling.

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KatieD View Post
For myself, I like to remember that everything is on the spectrum of "gambling" from crossing the street to playing roulette.

Funnily enough this is exactly what i tell them. That its simply strategy game of chance and managing risk. I then point out getting out of bed is a risk, the job they take and that life itself is a strategy game. We all make choices based on risk/ reward/ strategy in pretty much everything we do. Then point out plenty of large cap stocks go bust and that nothing is certain. Its fun watching them trying to process life being a real time strat game, conversation about trading usually ends there. Until next time we catch up, they usually get curious after that.

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 dom64 
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It's an educational thing. We are brought up, taught and conditioned to all do the same thing: Study and pass exams where there is a right and wrong answer, find a job, where there are good and bad jobs, do the right or wrong things, cross the street at the green light etc.. I am not getting into a philosophical pointless conversation here pretending there shouldn't be any rules or right or wrong, but simply that we are not taught to deal with uncertainty and we like rules and the right way to operate. Gambling has a lot to do with luck. So that's why it is called gambling, there is no rule, you just need to be lucky. Trading is not about being lucky, but there is an element of risk attached to it.. Just as you could be unlucky and be in a "normal" deemed safe job that doesn't work out. Nothing is risk free. And I would keep in mind the saying "the harder I work the luckier I get" too.


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 eminijalapeno 
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As a Christian, people that I used to hang out with from same church always pointed fingers at me, and for a long time I was very confused and even worry about what people said about me, I just didn't know.. as years went by I figure it out. Now I chill and give 2 shits what anyone thinks.. most people have no idea about running a biz let along any complex ideas of risk management, strategic planning or testing.. they can't even manage their time properly but they are happy to comment how stupid what you'r doing is.. and that's normal cause that's people so whatever.


here is my definition..

-- Gambling is the action of squandering resources you have stewardship and/or ownership over, a combination or a series of reckless decisions made from emotions of greed and avarice that bring destruction, and are done without any labor, strategy or planning whatsoever in any and all facets of life.

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 KatieD 
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As Cloudy mentioned above, witnessing live trades was a help. However, online instruction and even "live" videos was at first concerning to me. Almost all of the education in trading you can find is associated with someone who has something to sell you. I was worried that the "profitable retail daytrader" was this unicorn suckers like me chased while brokers, signal sellers, and book sellers profited. I have, of course, since gotten over this fear. The material provided by FT71 was pivotal for me. Maybe I was just at the place in my learning curve that the way he presented his discretionary process from start to finish made logical sense to me. I have gained much confidence in my ability to develop my own process after observing his approach to trading.
What also helped me gain confidence in the legitamcy of the retail daytrader was finally defining for myself what an "edge" is for a discretionary trader. Now, as I sim trade my own process, I know what I am looking for is average profits that are larger than average losses. That, paired with losing no more than 50% of the time, would be a non-luck based edge. I feel much more optimistic about my future as a trader and comments about it being gambling make me feel much less insecure.

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 dom64 
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On a side note, it is always a good idea, in my view, not to pay too much attention to stats when it comes to success: I tend to have a 80% ish more or less win rates with a number of small but decent wins over a lesser and smaller number of losses and that works out as being on average profitable on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis. One could have a 80/20 win ratio and still not be profitable as loosing traders are much larger than wining trades... or have a 20/80 win ratios with many more very small loosing trades and fewer very large winners. Sorry for stating the obvious here but again, it is all down to what works for you and not about the norm, the stats, etc.


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 KatieD 
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dom64 View Post
On a side note, it is always a good idea, in my view, not to pay too much attention to stats when it comes to success: I tend to have a 80% ish more or less win rates with a number of small but decent wins over a lesser and smaller number of losses and that works out as being on average profitable on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis. One could have a 80/20 win ratio and still not be profitable as loosing traders are much larger than wining trades... or have a 20/80 win ratios with many more very small loosing trades and fewer very large winners. Sorry for stating the obvious here but again, it is all down to what works for you and not about the norm, the stats, etc.


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indeed....... what I stated was specific to what I have built my own trading process around. An "edge" can come in different forms. My main point is, I think you have to have some other objective than just be profitable. I think you have to define for yourself why you expect to be profitable and make that your goal. Being profitable in and of itself does not mean anything. It could be one lucky over leveraged trade..... which is no positive expectancy at all.

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 dom64 
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Sure, by profitable I mean bring profitable daily/monthly/yearly, not just a lucky patch, develop oneself until you know you are and feel very confident about it. As well as trading my own proprietary account I have been working for a company selling to institutional trading desks across Europe, so I have to say being in it (although they work in a complete different way of course), helped me to develop in the right direction and feel confident about it as a lot of it comes down to understanding the markets and participants.


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 Neo1 
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KatieD View Post
I am a developing trader who is still in sim mode. So in other words, I love the idea of becoming a consistant and skilled trader, but I am still really insecure about it since I have not yet developed my "edge".

I will occationally come across someone who, when I tell them I am working on becoming a trader, will look down their nose at me and say, "well, professional gamblers win at first too.... before they lose everything because eventually the numbers catch up to them and their luck runs out". Then sometimes you will see write ups like this......

Some Cautionary Advice for the Novice Day Trader | Investopedia

Yes, it is Investopedia. So not the most sophisticated source. However, why would people feel the need to put sentiment like that out there if they did not see some truth in it.

For myself, I like to remember that everything is on the spectrum of "gambling" from crossing the street to playing roulette. The difference of where you are on that spectrum, I think, is based on information available and the ability to apply skill. With roulette there is no information to base a decision on and skill cannot be applied. With poker and black jack (ahead of roulette on the spectrum). You still have very limited information but skill can start to come into play. However, you are still at the mercy of what hand is dealt to you and the fact that once you are in, you cannot walk away. Trading is much further up the spectrum in my opinion. Information is somewhat limited (information risk vs. price risk) BUT unlike gambling, you don't have to play every hand that is dealt to you. You can wait and play the ones that you recognize to have the highest probability of success. In this way, we inject a much higher amount of skill in comparison to typical "gambling".

All, that being said, trading is still highly based in chance. Sometimes I'm scared I'm just deluding myself by thinking I will be able to develop or recognize a process that give me a positive expectancy. How do you all deal with this nagging question????

Quantify your edge and bet accordingly.

It's not just about developing your edge, it's about quantifying it instead of relying on guesswork- Any analogy based on gambling should associate you as the "house" instead of the player.

99% of what you hear about trading is White noise.

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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KatieD View Post
I will occationally come across someone who, when I tell them I am working on becoming a trader, will look down their nose at me and say, "well, professional gamblers win at first too.... before they lose everything because eventually the numbers catch up to them and their luck runs out". Then sometimes you will see write ups like this......

Well, that's complete nonsense, so I'd tell them to bugger off

One of the hardest things in trading is finding people with experienced, educational advice.

Mind you - it's better advice than you get off a lot of trading educators!

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  #23 (permalink)
 Schnook 
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There are a number of very unfortunate public misconceptions about trading, and unfortunately they're being perpetuated by academic theory.

Both the Random Walk Hypothesis and the Efficient Markets Hypothesis generally assert that there can be no consistent edge in trading, except that which can be had by cheating (trading on inside information, front-running big accounts, etc.)

Millions of people are taught this in finance courses all around the world every year. As a result, there are huge segments of the public that genuinely believe any successful trader is either a cheat or a fluke. The fact that there are so few consistently profitable traders is taken as further evidence to support these beliefs.

So if you're an independent trader and you make money, then, to most people, it can only mean that you're a bad person. Whether a cheat or a a reckless gambler, it doesn't make much difference.

You can try to explain to them how this is not actually the case, but frankly, most of them don't even want to hear it. It would challenge their own self-righteousness judgments and would require them to change their mind. People don't like to be proven wrong. They don't like to change their mind.

So let them cling to their fantasies because, frankly, we need them. We profit from them.

It may sound perverse, but these are precisely the kinds of people we make money off every day in the markets. Their myths and superstitions provide the fuel for our trading strategies. The more, the better I say.

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  #24 (permalink)
 KatieD 
Philadelphia PA
 
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Bladesmith View Post
There are a number of very unfortunate public misconceptions about trading, and unfortunately they're being perpetuated by academic theory.

Both the Random Walk Hypothesis and the Efficient Markets Hypothesis generally assert that there can be no consistent edge in trading, except that which can be had by cheating (trading on inside information, front-running big accounts, etc.)

Millions of people are taught this in finance courses all around the world every year. As a result, there are huge segments of the public that genuinely believe any successful trader is either a cheat or a fluke. The fact that there are so few consistently profitable traders is taken as further evidence to support these beliefs.

So if you're an independent trader and you make money, then, to most people, it can only mean that you're a bad person. Whether a cheat or a a reckless gambler, it doesn't make much difference.

You can try to explain to them how this is not actually the case, but frankly, most of them don't even want to hear it. It would challenge their own self-righteousness judgments and would require them to change their mind. People don't like to be proven wrong. They don't like to change their mind.

So let them cling to their fantasies because, frankly, we need them. We profit from them.

It may sound perverse, but these are precisely the kinds of people we make money off every day in the markets. Their myths and superstitions provide the fuel for our trading strategies. The more, the better I say.

Oh my gosh.... YES! This was exactly the root of my concern. If I believe in anything, it is good old fashioned repeatable results that make up our reality as confirmed by the scientific method. It was the academics and industry professionals that would tell me these things that would concern me the most. I have such a strong respect for evidence based lines of thought. The skeptical financial analyst seemed to have it, while the retail day trader is more of a mystery.

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  #25 (permalink)
 artemiso 
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Actually, I disagree with most of the sentiment on this thread.

1. It's actually more difficult to trade than to gamble. For gambling, there is no model or specification risk because the rules of gameplay and information exposure are explicit. In trading, there's both model risk and asymmetric information.

2. It's expensive to trade. The transaction costs and expenses are very tight when you're gambling, whereas there's many more decision variables for managing your expenses for a trading environment.

3. And the markets are extraordinarily efficient. I say this despite having experienced first-hand and second-hand some of the most remarkable runs in trading. But this shouldn't be surprising at all. The barrier to entry to starting a pizzeria is very small, so you need to be good to be consistently profitable running a pizzeria. The barrier to entry to being a retail trader is even smaller, so you need to be even more skilled, lucky, and diligent than the minimally successful pizzeria owner.

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  #26 (permalink)
pinetree
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I typed "gambling" into google and found this as the definition: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Is that not what you do when trading? You make a wager on an uncertain outcome (future price change) with the intent of making additional money. Not much different than betting on the outcome of a sporting event. Although trading is a little more risky because in sports betting you can never lose more than you wager, but in trading there is always the very small chance of an outlier event (remember Swiss Franc 2 yrs ago?) causing you to lose much more than you expected.

I mean come on... trading is a form of gambling. Just admit it! This topic always used to come up from time to time when I used to spend a lot of time reading forums. People would try to argue that trading was not gambling, and if that didn't work the next step was to come up with all kinds of analogies to show that all of life was a gamble. Such as suggesting that running a business was gambling, or driving to work every day was a gamble, etc. LOL. I figure it's because gambling has such a negative reputation that many people do not want to be associated with it at any cost, hence all of the rationalizing.

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  #27 (permalink)
 Seahn 
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pinetree View Post
I typed "gambling" into google and found this as the definition: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Is that not what you do when trading? You make a wager on an uncertain outcome (future price change) with the intent of making additional money. Not much different than betting on the outcome of a sporting event. Although trading is a little more risky because in sports betting you can never lose more than you wager, but in trading there is always the very small chance of an outlier event (remember Swiss Franc 2 yrs ago?) causing you to lose much more than you expected.

I mean come on... trading is a form of gambling. Just admit it! This topic always used to come up from time to time when I used to spend a lot of time reading forums. People would try to argue that trading was not gambling, and if that didn't work the next step was to come up with all kinds of analogies to show that all of life was a gamble. Such as suggesting that running a business was gambling, or driving to work every day was a gamble, etc. LOL. I figure it's because gambling has such a negative reputation that many people do not want to be associated with it at any cost, hence all of the rationalizing.

The way I see it is:

If you don't know what you are doing because of lack of knowledge, experience etc. then trading is definitely gambling.

If you know what you are doing and have proven it with a meaningful track record then it most definitely is not gambling.

Successful traders are not gamblers, their "bets" are taken when the odds are overwhelming in their favor, knowing then that is the case is the hard part. You can tell if someone is not there yet when they start calling trading gambling.

Just my two cents worth...

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  #28 (permalink)
 xplorer 
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Seahn View Post
The way I see it is:

If you don't know what you are doing because of lack of knowledge, experience etc. then trading is definitely gambling.

If you know what you are doing and have proven it with a meaningful track record then it most definitely is not gambling.

Successful traders are not gamblers, their "bets" are taken when the odds are overwhelming in their favor, knowing then that is the case is the hard part. You can tell if someone is not there yet when they start calling trading gambling.

Just my two cents worth...

I vote this as the most no-nonsense quote in the thread

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  #29 (permalink)
 intrdy 
harpers ferry, WV USA
 
 
Posts: 5 since May 2017

It's just like most things, only people actually doing something really have a true understanding of it. So, you're just dealing with majority of people who have only general knowledge of trading at best.

It's to be expected, the proof will be in your results, so I wouldn't make too much of it.

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  #30 (permalink)
 GFIs1 
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Trading is optimizing strategies over time respecting given terms with high probability
plus dealing with uncertainty.

Trading is a business like others:
• The positive about is - one can reach a high level.
• The negative is that it takes TIME & MONEY.

Like to study dentist - needing years before earning the very first $.
A trader with a long track record had of course a lot of work putting into this adventure,
needing a long learning time on its way.

Conclusion: Trading is not for everybody and is not done within zero time.

GFIs1

PS: The shark / small fish example does not count - every single lot, eg. future has the same
value at time as every other. Such is anonymous and has no weight. Only good strategies
can deal with lots of lots over long time

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  #31 (permalink)
 TheWizard 
Houston, TX
 
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@KatieD, It is quite simple.

Gambling is placing a bet, not knowing the outcome. $10 on Fancy Pants to win, place or show in the 3rd race at the race track; Red or Black on the roulette wheel; or asking the dealer to "hit me" for another card in Blackjack, when you're holding "13", not knowing whether or not the House already has "21", or plunking down $1 in the slot machine and pulling the handle; or buying a scratch-off lotto ticket. You might win some coin, you might lose your bet. You never know the outcome.

Trading, on the other hand, is taking a "calculated risk". You know in advance what your risk is (where you place your Stop) and what your profit will be (where you place your Target. You KNOW the outcome will be one, or the other, in time. Either your target will be hit and you "win" or your stop will be hit and you "lose". It's got to be one or the other. No "Gambling" involved. You get into a "gambling" mind sense, when you place trades in rapid succession "hoping" to win. You must have a good strategy, with hard and fast rules to which you adhere, and use a calm Zen-like mind in making these calculated decisions at the proper time, as to when to enter the market and in what direction. To do so, eliminates the "gambling" aspect.

After all, it's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
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