'Flash crash' hearing told spoofing does not justify trader's extradition to US - futures io
futures io futures trading



'Flash crash' hearing told spoofing does not justify trader's extradition to US


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated by xplorer
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one xplorer with 9 posts (10 thanks)
    2. looks_two Jigsaw Trading with 2 posts (2 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Pedro40 with 2 posts (2 thanks)
    4. looks_4 Blash with 2 posts (2 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one nightshade with 2.0 thanks per post
    2. looks_two xplorer with 1.1 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 Blash with 1.0 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Jigsaw Trading with 1.0 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 2,576 views
    2. thumb_up 18 thanks given
    3. group 4 followers
    1. forum 15 replies
    2. attach_file 4 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 100,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

'Flash crash' hearing told spoofing does not justify trader's extradition to US

  #1 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,977 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,489 given, 11,160 received

'Flash crash' hearing told spoofing does not justify trader's extradition to US

From The Guardian


Quoting 
Navinder Singh Sarao’s lawyer tells court that even if trader had signalled orders to sell shares he did not intend to fulfil, this is not a crime in UK

So, if Sarao won on this basis, does that mean I can start spoofing the markets if I'm in the UK?

Views appreciated.


Full article here

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to xplorer for this post:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
Convert NinjaTrader NT7 indicator to Tradestation EasyLanguage and RADARSCREEN
Platforms and Indicators
Issue meeting order entry conditions
Elite Automated NinjaTrader Trading
Last 5 minutes Label
ThinkOrSwim
Moving average with Lag reduction
NinjaTrader
Linux?
ThinkOrSwim
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
259 thanks
What is your single biggest weakness?
44 thanks
Want your NinjaTrader indicator created, free?
44 thanks
VWAP for stock index futures trading?
39 thanks
Is Amp at risk of going under?
38 thanks
 
  #2 (permalink)
canton mi
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: ninja xtrader
Trading: tf, es
 
Posts: 228 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 325 given, 145 received


xplorer View Post
From The Guardian



So, if Sarao won on this basis, does that mean I can start spoofing the markets if I'm in the UK?

Views appreciated.


Full article here

oh boy Everone is now going to move to the UK and it's going to be spoof city again

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to nightshade for this post:
 
  #3 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,977 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,489 given, 11,160 received



nightshade View Post
oh boy Everone is now going to move to the UK and it's going to be spoof city again

Haha... the question was a bit provocative, I know, but I'm interested in this kind of views... we all know trading is definitely not a gentleman's club and deceit is an integral part of the game.

Seasoned traders swear that spoofing is alive and well - despite what the regulators might say (or when it's convenient saying it) - so it would be useful to see what opinions there are, both about spoofing and on Sarao's case, for those who followed it.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
  #4 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,977 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,489 given, 11,160 received

Navr Sarao loses fight against extradition to the US

An update on Nav Sarao

"Navinder Singh Sarao, the British futures trader accused of contributing to the so-called stock market “flash crash” of 2010, has lost his court battle and will be extradited to the US.

A judge ruled that Mr Sarao, 37, should be sent to the US to face trial on 22 charges ranging from wire fraud to commodities manipulation on US futures markets over a four-year period. The offences carry sentences totalling a maximum of 380 years.

US prosecutors claim that Mr Sarao was heavily engaged in a type of market manipulation known as “spoofing” that played a role in one of the most spectacular moves ever seen in US equity markets."

Full article on Financial Times

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
  #5 (permalink)
Legendary Market Chamois
Chicago, IL
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT8,NT7,TWS
Broker: InteractiveBrokers, S5T, IQFeed
Trading: The one I'm creating in the present....Index Futures mini/micro, ZF
 
Blash's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,173 since Nov 2011
Thanks: 6,815 given, 4,092 received


xplorer View Post
Haha... the question was a bit provocative, I know, but I'm interested in this kind of views... we all know trading is definitely not a gentleman's club and deceit is an integral part of the game.

Seasoned traders swear that spoofing is alive and well - despite what the regulators might say (or when it's convenient saying it) - so it would be useful to see what opinions there are, both about spoofing and on Sarao's case, for those who followed it.


Here is the CME rules created in May 28 2013 to address spoofing, quote stuffing and general depth manipulation.




This, as I can understand it currently, is based on intent. Seems to me if you are a very wealthy person, 20 million and up say, the court system (in whatever country lets just say) would have an easier time proving just what your intentions were back when you were sitting at your platform and "spoofing" or manipulating the depth. And harder for you to claim you were a lousy trader that just keep changing their mind all the time and basically had zero correct or worthwhile ideas about the markets.

On a lighter note......

I have thought for a long time now that a good spy movie could work into its plot a way for spies to communicate with HQ (...lol... cracking myself up over here...) via spoofing "signals" at the edge of market depth on different market instruments.

Here is the full 11 page CME pdf....

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
Attached Thumbnails
'Flash crash' hearing told spoofing does not justify trader's extradition to US-ra1405-5.pdf  
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Blash for this post:
 
  #6 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,977 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,489 given, 11,160 received


Blash View Post
Here is the CME rules created in May 28 2013 to address spoofing, quote stuffing and general depth manipulation.

This, as I can understand it currently, is based on intent. Seems to me if you are a very wealthy person, 20 million and up say, the court system (in whatever country lets just say) would have an easier time proving just what your intentions were back when you were sitting at your platform and "spoofing" or manipulating the depth. And harder for you to claim you were a lousy trader that just keep changing their mind all the time and basically had zero correct or worthwhile ideas about the markets.

On a lighter note......

I have thought for a long time now that a good spy movie could work into its plot a way for spies to communicate with HQ (...lol... cracking myself up over here...) via spoofing "signals" at the edge of market depth on different market instruments.

Here is the full 11 page CME pdf....

Ron

Thanks Ron, yep I too understand it to be based on intent. Trouble is, allegedly it's very difficult to prove intent when spoofing because who's to say the order I cancelled was not cancelled because I saw something that made me change idea? I think this can be particularly true of scalpers.

It is also difficult for prosecutors to extract too much information from traders who may be having an established and effective modus operandi and hence may be treating their own processes as intellectual property.

Clearly, when gathering large amount of data (as it must have been the case with Sarao), certain patterns will probably lead to the conclusion that the spoofer is, in fact, spoofing, but I understand it's not easy to spot.


Intriguing your bit about spies.... maybe someone's already doing that... lol.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
  #7 (permalink)
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
 
 
Posts: 563 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 33 given, 375 received

I think they had his emails proving intent... Also canceling like 97% of your trades isn't really intent to trade...

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Pedro40 for this post:
 
  #8 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,977 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,489 given, 11,160 received


Pedro40 View Post
I think they had his emails proving intent... Also canceling like 97% of your trades isn't really intent to trade...

You make a good point about his emails... as for the 97%, I know there's HFT firms that cancel a very high number of trades (don't have the percentage at hand), but they are not prosecuted... again I think it's about being able to prove that your intent was never to execute them...

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
  #9 (permalink)
Legendary Market Chamois
Chicago, IL
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT8,NT7,TWS
Broker: InteractiveBrokers, S5T, IQFeed
Trading: The one I'm creating in the present....Index Futures mini/micro, ZF
 
Blash's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,173 since Nov 2011
Thanks: 6,815 given, 4,092 received


Pedro40 View Post
I think they had his emails proving intent... Also canceling like 97% of your trades isn't really intent to trade...


So 97% of the limits he placed he pull. Yeah that sounds like he was trying to manipulate.

I'm not sure one guy could of caused the Flash Crash of May 6 2010. Actually I know one can't. But it seems this guy is a spoofer from what I know, have heard.

Ron


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Blash for this post:
 
  #10 (permalink)
Super Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,977 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 12,489 given, 11,160 received



Blash View Post
So 97% of the limits he placed he pull. Yeah that sounds like he was trying to manipulate.

I'm not sure one guy could of caused the Flash Crash of May 6 2010. Actually I know one can't. But it seems this guy is a spoofer from what I know, have heard.

Ron


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh he is/was a spoofer all right. His own point was, everybody spoofs, so why not me?

The problem is, he was too small and with no connections, that's why they went after him

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to xplorer for this post:



futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout > 'Flash crash' hearing told spoofing does not justify trader's extradition to US




Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

Understanding Order Flow Stops Runs & Icebergs w/Bookmap

May 28
     



Copyright © 2020 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts