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VW scandal and impact on German economy
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VW scandal and impact on German economy

  #51 (permalink)
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Zondor View Post
This is a problem for the reputation of the entire German auto industry, not just for Volkswagen.
GM, the owner of Opel, may get dragged into this.

The supplier of the software for the motors in german cars is BOSCH.
Every car maker uses parts or them...

As mentioned in earlier post - cars with larger motors are not affected.
Daimler (Mercedes), BMW normally have larger motors with better NOx reduction. These work
under heavy tests without problems.
PSA with many small motos will have the same problem as VW group faced.
Only tests under real conditions will bring acceptable results.

GFIs1

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  #52 (permalink)
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GFIs1 View Post
If your car needs 7l /100km instead of 3,5 (as shown in prospect) - your calculation for driving will be most different.

It's amazing that it took this long for it to come out - all these million drivers were using 2x the fuel than what they expected. And with all the various Car Magazine test reviews, car forum enthusiasts (they even have them for Skoda), they never made a loud enough voice for the problem to emerge earlier.

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  #53 (permalink)
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sixtyseven View Post
It's amazing that it took this long for it to come out - all these million drivers were using 2x the fuel than what they expected. And with all the various Car Magazine test reviews, car forum enthusiasts (they even have them for Skoda), they never made a loud enough voice for the problem to emerge earlier.

No, they actually wen't using 2x the fuel they expected.... They were producing many, many times the pollution they expected, but the fuel use and horsepower output was good.

Now the problem is, that the VW "fix" that allowed their pollution numbers to look good when the regulators tested them did so by reducing the fuel economy and the output. So if that software fix is put in as a standard now, then the drivers will have bad fuel usage, and low pickup too.

Up to now, those drivers were perfectly happy. Now, they probably won't be.

Bob.

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  #54 (permalink)
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Trade off between CO2 and NOX emissions


GFIs1 View Post
The FRAUD does not disappear while installing new software over the old one:
Simple clients bought these cars understanding that they are "Best Of Technology",
using 3,5l diesel per 100km and will be best for nature ;-)
If VW is putting the original "cleaning" back to work - the same car uses
suddenly 6 to 7 l diesel per 100km and is much less powerful than seen in
prospects.
All the good numbers evaporate - every client feels cheated again!


The technical problem here is that if you wish to achieve maximum fuel efficiency for a car, you need to use more oxygen in the combustion chamber. The higher content of oxygen means

-> that next to all carbon atoms are burned (low emissions in sooth and carbon monoxide)
-> that fuel efficiency is increased
-> that the exhausts still contain between 5% and 20% of oxygen

With a surplus of oxygen in the exhaust it is basically impossible to cut down NOx with simple NOx storage catalytic converters. Other technical solutions such as SCR (selective katalytic reduction) need to be applied. This process requires the use of DEF (Diesel exhaust fluid), which is an aqueous urea solution.

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For small cars the SCR devices are rather expensive.

I am curious to understand how the other manufacturers of Diesel cars coped with the problem.

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  #55 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
For small cars the SCR devices are rather expensive.

I am curious to understand how the other manufacturers of Diesel cars coped with the problem.

Well, this may be cynical, but I think the answer, for the smaller Diesels at least, probably was that they found a good way to cheat as well....

Bob.

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bobwest View Post
Well, this may be cynical, but I think the answer, for the smaller Diesels at least, probably was that they found a good way to cheat as well....

Bob.

One of the main problems here are the laboratory tests used by governments for testing. The New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) dates back to 1997. As the car manufacturers knew the test, they focused on designing cars that passed the test, not cars that were complying with the regulations that were meant to be implemented with the test.

I think there are two way of cheating:

active cheating: recognize test and switch off cleaning devices when the test is not being performed

passive cheating: design exhaust cleaning devices in a way that they are optimized for the test without caring about the output under regular driving conditions

I think all manufacturers of Diesel cars found a more or less practical solution to pass the tests. The question is how far they went to cheat.

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A publication shows that also 1.8 million small trucks are impacted by this fraud software

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  #58 (permalink)
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VW update

Calculations of damage in this case of VW fraud are going up to 40 billion Euro up to now.

Some cash and worth calculations on the VW group:
20 billion are held in cash or stocks
VW could pay up to 80 billion (including selling brands like Bugatti, Porsche and others)
before going bust.
Of course the company can not go forward as planned as long all that threat are not from the table -
and that takes years. VW is the first large german car builder now being out of the serious manufacturers.

VW had given order in year 2005 to use fraudulent software to reach US conditions to obtain license.
That came directly from Wolfsburg - the central of development.
No real excuses for that - even for later management - as all documents were at hand.

GFIs1

more to come

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  #59 (permalink)
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PeakGrowth View Post
You literally know everything @Fat Tails it's almost scary.

I think VW will go under, or broken up and sold for parts.

This is bad, I got 3 VW's in the family and one of them is diesel, my almost 3 yr old niece rolls in the diesel

This could be the end of diesel, if every authority around the world retests all diesels from all manufacturers in real world tests (and not on rollers) and they find they are all doing it - I wouldn't be surprised if they all are to some degree.


Actually I do not think that this is the end of the Diesel engine.

Most of the Diesel cars that Volkswagen sold were sold in Europe. The offensive EA189 engine, which was fitted to 11 million vehicles, is a Euro 5 engine. The Euro 5 limit for NOx stands at 180 mg/km. I think that it should be comparatively easy to fix all Diesel cars with the EA189 engine in a way that they pass the old European limits of 180mg/km.

The new Euro 6 Diesel motors are (apparently) not using a defeat device. The Euro 6 limit has been set at 80 mg/km.

The main problem are US sales. In the US the limits were set at around 31 mg/km, and obviously it is much more of a challenge to retrofit the Diesel cars in the US. Let me repeat this:

NOx limit in Europe for Euro 5: 180 mg/km (easily achievable)
NOx limit in Australia (Euro 4): 250 mg/km
NOx limit in the US: 31 mg/km (requires redesign/retrofit of exhaust treatment)

By the way my son is driving an old Volkswagen - very robust - from 1995 with a petrol engine. At that time the Euro 2 limit allowed for 500 mg/km NOx for petrol cars, which is 2.5 times as high than the limit for Eur0 5 Diesel cars.

Average emissions of passenger cars in the US were 870 mg/km in the year 2000. (Source EPA). I think there is a lot of hype around the case.

However, I consider it a criminal offense that VW installed a defeat device to manipulate real world emissions. It will take some time to find the guys who are responsible. Let us see whether they will be jailed.

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  #60 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
I think that it should be comparatively easy to fix all Diesel cars with the EA189 engine in a way that they pass the old European limits of 180mg/km.

I don't doubt the cars can be modified to pass emissions without the defeat device. Isn't the question under what circumstances, in other words with how much loss of horsepower?

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