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VW scandal and impact on German economy


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VW scandal and impact on German economy

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  #301 (permalink)
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VW daughter AUDI announced today to recall 850000 diesel cars.
This is a result of the pressure EU is making as well as the politics
in Germany.

Of course such a hercules work is not done by end of the year, when
the EU intends to ban not repaired vehicules.

More "hot bad news" around the corner

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  #302 (permalink)
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VW and Daimler self-reported to the prosecuting attorney about
a large cartel between the 5 German car makers around the diesel.
This had been started in the 90ies already. More than 200 people
worked in "special work groups" to discuss how reduce producing
costs with illegal measure by circumventing the competition rules.

Stocks fell
2% for Daimler (already -11% since January)
2,5% for BMW and
3% for VW within 2 hours

Source: (german)
Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, BMW und Daimler unter Kartellverdacht - SPIEGEL ONLINE

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  #303 (permalink)
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This severe ban will affect all vehicules, hybrides and oldtimers too...
A whole new gas station model will be needed as well

Other countries are thinking of those restricting rules as well: France will be earlier
than GB. That will be a big competition for old an new car makers - who will be first?

More things to come for sure.
At least the discussion is started and may bring new concepts very soon.

GFIs1

edit: Norway from 2025...

Title error: means of course 2040 haha.. - wishful thinking - lol

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  #304 (permalink)
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Source: Handelsblatt

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GFIs1 View Post
VW and Daimler self-reported to the prosecuting attorney about
a large cartel between the 5 German car makers around the diesel.
This had been started in the 90ies already. More than 200 people
worked in "special work groups" to discuss how reduce producing
costs with illegal measure by circumventing the competition rules.

Stocks fell
2% for Daimler (already -11% since January)
2,5% for BMW and
3% for VW within 2 hours

Source: (german)
Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, BMW und Daimler unter Kartellverdacht - SPIEGEL ONLINE

GFIs1

Thanks @GFIs1
Amazed this isn't news in the US.

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  #306 (permalink)
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fyi some fresh VW numbers via Reuters:

BRIEF-VW has had 12 bln eur dieselgate cash outflows in 2017 -CFO
July 27 (Reuters) - VW <VOWG_p.DE>
* Expects stronger Audi car sales in H2, citing orders
-sales chief
* Has had 15 billion euros dieselgate cash outflows to date,
12 billion of which in 2017 -CFO
* Expects further dieselgate cash outflows in H2 but at
significantly lower level -CFO
* CFO declines comment on speculation about asset sales
* Says trucks IPO no priority at the moment, focus is on
boosting synergies among truck brands -CFO
* Brand shows early signs of restructuring paying off but
still long way to go -CFO
* CFO says confident to stay below 20 billion euros on 2017
dieselgate cash outflows
* CFO declines comment on Porsche Cayenne illicit software
findings

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The result of a process from DUH (Deutsche Umwelthilfe) against Baden-Württemberg (state of Porsche, BMW,
Daimler) gave a clear win for the DUH.
That means diesel ban in the city center may be activated very soon. A sum of 18 days per year will be allowed
to be above the limits - measured at the the "Neckar-Tor" - the most polluted junction in Germany.
From there a total ban of Diesel is possible - for all Diesel from EURO 3 to EURO 6.

Bad news for the German car makers - they face a big battle from existing customers as well as a neglecting crowd
of new buyers.

More news with next post (Porsche)

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EURO 3 to EURO 6.

What does that mean?

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SMCJB View Post
What does that mean?

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/euro-emissions-standards/

Stuff to keep folk that write rules in work to make it harder for folk that make things to do so economically, thereby preventing economics from working as it should, but sometimes saving parts of the planet, so that other bits can be unintentionally buggered up, usually by cheating executives, scheming politicians, grantless scientists or some other crowd of scumbags or accidental do-gooder heroes.

Hope it helps. Baffles me.

Cheers

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What does that mean?

EURO x are European emission standards.
EURO 3 to 6 would basically ban ~90% of all currently licensed Diesel cars.

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What does that mean?

Euro 3, Euro 4, Euro 5, Euro 6 are standards that define the maximum limit of mg/km pollution is
allowed for:
• HC = Kohlenwasserstoffe (engl.: „hydrocarbons“)
• HC+NOx = Summe der Kohlenwasserstoffe und der Stickstoffoxide
• NOx = Stickstoffoxide
• CO = Kohlenstoffmonoxid
• NMHC = Nichtmethankohlenwasserstoffe
• PM = Partikelmasse (Fein-) Staub (engl.: „particulate matter“)
• PN = Partikelanzahl (engl.: „particle number“)

Every higher class of allowance means less pollution. Every class can have added sub classes.
Some cities in Germany are allowing only "cleaner" classes of cars - banning all other that do
not reach the demanded standards.

See details for gasoline and diesel engines here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasnorm

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Thanks @ratfink, @choke35, @GFIs1 that was very interesting and highlights how far behind Europe the US is. While diesel engine's are not as popular as in Europe the US has a proliferation of pickups & SUVs that are far less efficient than cars. But gasoline is a lot cheaper than in Europe, and half the population is either a climate change denier or elects climate change deniers to represent them, so it's a non-issue and nobody cares.

Auto Sales - Markets Data Center - WSJ.com
Gasoline prices around the world, 24-Jul-2017 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com

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Same restrictions evolve in other countries :
- Paris (France)
- Antwerp (Belgium)

I think it's a trend that will only become stronger and stronger
and as a result the planet will become cleaner and cleaner

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rleplae View Post
I think it's a trend that will only become stronger and stronger
and as a result the planet will become cleaner and cleaner

I welcome the trend, but using logics I sometimes wonder if e.g. the German population of 80mn
- which is basically the rounding error of China or India - will make much of a difference ...

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I think that's part of the reason for the apathy in the US. The cost for US business to reduce emissions is significant and even then the effect is insignificant when compared with other countries who could have a much larger impact at a fraction of the cost. Although this image may not agree with that line of thought ....


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I welcome the trend, but using logics I sometimes wonder if e.g. the German population of 80mn
- which is basically the rounding error of China or India - will make much of a difference ...

Yes it will: because if you travel to Greece, Southern Italy or Romania etc. - you will not find the fat Benz, the fast
Audi, the Porsche SUV Cayenne - because the on those cars you have to pay enormous taxes for import.
Such cars only moving ONE person with 2,5 tons of tara weight are just ridiculous.
Think about the scaling for India, China (taxes meant as well of course)

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I think that's part of the reason for the apathy in the US. The cost for US business to reduce emissions is significant and even then the effect is insignificant when compared with other countries who could have a much larger impact at a fraction of the cost.

Now everyone knows why Trump does not want to sign the Paris climate contracts: America First

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Yes it will: because if you travel to Greece, Southern Italy or Romania etc. - you will not find the fat Benz, the fast
Audi, the Porsche SUV Cayenne - because the on those cars you have to pay enormous taxes for import.
Such cars only moving ONE person with 2,5 tons of tara weight are just ridiculous.
Think about the scaling for India, China (taxes meant as well of course)

GFIs1

Fiat Chrysler has similar problems although their mix is biased towards much smaller cars.
And unfortunately China is one of the countries with the highest number of high-powered and
spacious cars - absolutely so far, but relatively the scaling is also at full steam ...

Without any greenish missionary zeal: (imho) there is absolutely no reason for the present degree of
individual transport within city areas since there are myriads of alternatives. But more than 75% of premium
and/or high-powered cars in Germany are licensed in metropolitan areas - exactly where the fat cats live that
cause the problem and complain about it. (If you want to lose your last illusions just watch mommies dropping off
their single precious offsprings by SUV at the kindergarten every day - which is regularly within walking
distance in German cities.) But which politician wants to convey that to the locals?

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...metropolitan areas - exactly where the fat cats live that
cause the problem and complain about it. ... just watch mommies dropping off
their single precious offsprings by SUV at the kindergarten every day - which is regularly within walking
distance in German cities.) But which politician wants to convey that to the locals?



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Attention for Wednesday - when trading German car stocks or the DAX:
There will be held the German "Dieselgipfel" which means a severe conference about solving the
problems of the Diesel in Germany / Europe and other continents.
The 3 parties - German carmakers, highest German politicians, organizations against the pollution (including some
towns that have larger problems) will discuss on Wednesday. A catalog of questions to the car makers will be opened
and the answers given by the parties will steer the rules by WHEN some city drive bans for certain models will be
starting.
So be well prepared to either NOT to trade (my proposal) or wait for what the outcome will show

Of course the German election (24th of September) is nearing - but the problems need to be solved either election
results.

Think about a difficult trading week concerning the DAX (as we have seen already since some days and especially
today)

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choke35 View Post
I welcome the trend, but using logics I sometimes wonder if e.g. the German population of 80mn
- which is basically the rounding error of China or India - will make much of a difference ...

hehe @rleplae - there are some voices in Germany speaking about "The Diesel will CLEAN the air while driving".

Such nonsense is broadcasted and many people that were buying a "clean Diesel", a "Bluetec" etc. still believe in... lol

But Germany is still thinking they are the car maker country number ONE in the world - speaking of technology.
Which obviously was only built by Hollywood's hollow impressions.
Now people are frazzled and are not sure of what to think of the future of those companies protected 25 years by
German politics. Every 7th job is depending on this "car making".
Now things come to an end. Maybe with elections even more.

We will see.
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Now people are frazzled and are not sure of what to think of the future of those companies protected 25 years by
German politics.
GFIs1

Looking at VW and Porsche, 25 years are a very charming interpretation

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The future does no longer base on individual freedom to self-drive.
Why?
Because
• accidents occur mostly by human driven vehicule
• rules are clear - but not known by most people in the streets
• planes, big trucks, ships, trains etc. are already fully automated without humans needed

The self driving electric cars (5 to 6 seats) will be available soon. Everyone can hire one
by app. Result: you will know exactly when to start and when to arrive. You can work while
driving. There will be no long traffic jams as the the cars are filled with at least 3 people
going to a nearby place or route. Thus the cars in the street are divided by 3.
Accidents are less and travel will be much more smooth.

More details to be discussed. In fact such concepts are like airplanes, self driven trucks etc.
and no longer a big threat.

A lot of jobs will be created by startups and smaller companies to organize all that.
We will see what new concepts can do for better traffic organization over all.

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A new poll shows that global warming is essentially tied with the Islamic State as the most-feared security threat around the world — except in the U.S., where cyberattacks and ISIS are considered the greatest dangers. The Pew study also tracked just how far Americans’ views on climate change skew politically. Among the left-leaning, 86 percent cite rising emissions as a dangerous threat, compared with 31 percent on the right.

NYTimes:- Islamic State and Climate Change Seen as World’s Greatest Threats, Poll Says

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Very good article...

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death

Changes go slowly but surely, i think what we see now in electric vehicles is disruptive
for the classic car industry, the question will be how quickly VW (and other German
car manufacturers) can change gear and create e-vehicles

When i say e-vehicle, i'm not talking about the pseudo 'green' vehicle like the hybrid
Porsche cayenne, which sold very well, because of fiscal stimuli, which in my opinion were
not correctly attributed, as the battery is very small and the combustion engine delivers
the bulk of the horse power...

Will those German brands be around in 10 years time ?


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Will those German brands be around in 10 years time ?


In my opinion: NO!
There is now a big space for new startups with new transportation concepts - NOT cars.
Individual transport has to be lifted to a new platform.

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A Ford Mondeo 2l has been found in Germany to have a illegal software with a "defeat device".
That finding means that not only European car makers were cheating.
But of course there are some Ford models made in France and Germany...

The scandal has not ended here.
More to come.

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GFIs1 View Post
A Ford Mondeo 2l has been found in Germany to have a illegal software with a "defeat device".
That finding means that not only European car makers were cheating.
But of course there are some Ford models made in France and Germany...

The scandal has not ended here.
More to come.

GFIs1

For me this is like top sport
all know that someone is taking illegal substance,
only the laboratory is not yet able to detect it...

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NYTimes :- Audi Engineer Implicates Superiors in Diesel Case, Lawyer Says

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/21/business/audi-volkswagen-diesel-emissions.html

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NYTimes :- Audi Engineer Implicates Superiors in Diesel Case, Lawyer Says

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/21/business/audi-volkswagen-diesel-emissions.html

Several German sources say that the engineer states that Audi management knew and was involved into
the cheating since
2006!

Why are those criminals not behind the curtains? Because of the strong lobby in Germany...

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First trial has resulted with 40 months prison for an engineer of VW arrested in USA.
He was admitting to have installed illegal parts and software in serial cars of VW.
Some other judges will have to rule about several persons in USA as well as in Germany.
All of them in the case of betrayal of Diesel motors sold in the last 11 years.
Persons around the high management are also under survey.

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You have to think there was collusion amongst all parties in this affair, including regulators; as in all bull market scandals, on the way up everybody wants a piece of the action, once we turn the hairy corner for real we should see many skeletons in many quarters getting outed, including from green corners..

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Just some thoughts about who was/is victim of such behavior of one car make like VW.
What went wrong?
The Diesel scandal reveals some points to not forget:

• Telling by marketing: "Clean Diesel" - best of ever (We are the best fulfilling clean air conditions today)
• Taking subventions from the state (here Germany) as Diesel is much cheaper than gasoline - paid by the tax payers
• Cheating on the environment: nothing by selling such cars will be better: Best is to NOT PRODUCE a car...
(Just to mention today's NEW German Diesel cars in Germany waiting for a buyer: 300000 which fill 525 soccer fields)
• Cheating to the stock holders by admitting late and never got out a stock holder note about the problems
This infected the whole markets... including all depending products hanging on the VW stock, the futures, CFDs EFTs etc.
• Now clear illegal stuff about paying less tax because of fake emission sheets - every car sold got subvention from the
country - plus the buyer got a better tax class paying... So both the seller and the buyer were cheating the country by
not paying the real tax for the class.
• Company gets subvention from the state to "develop" even better cars...
• Distorting markets - by not pricing in all the pricey side effects when selling in own and foreign markets

Nobody of the management "knew about"

Now as the management KNOWS where to not fly to (US etc. haha!) it is obvious that all this was dictated by the
most top management (holding their golden seats and parachutes) since 2006: Everything was done from top to
down to cheat millions of car buyers, environment, stock holders, futures traders, tax payers et. al.... you see

If this mismanagement (other labels included) is still surviving by not paying the damage done - then such companies
need to be forced to get out of business.

This is not the end of the thread - we will see much more evident parts - and for sure a lot of justice.

Hopefully for better technology including networking transport systems to replace individual traffic.

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Nobody of the management "knew about"

Always knew that levels from 7 down to 50 of an organizational chart are highly dangereous
Like in every good economic thriller they are diligently neutralizing the designated fall guys.

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According to an actual article in "Süddeutsche Zeitung" there are

• 38 responsible persons of VW are under investigation
• 5 persons are searched by Interpol with red flag (sudden arrest - plus delivery to USA)
• 1 person already is in prison (as mentioned above)
• More than 8 billion Euro financial claims by VW stock holders because the betrayal was not announced on time by the management (BaFin is responsible for treating this stock holders case)
List not complete

But VW still produces these cars every day - which is unbelievable 2 years after knowing about the scandal

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But VW still produces these cars every day - which is unbelievable 2 years after knowing about the scandal

GFIs1

true true and one more time true.Germans own EU - thats the answer

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Completely and utterly off-topic, but thought people here might find it interesting, and may be able to weigh in on it's accuracy.

538.com :- Six Charts To Help Americans Understand The Upcoming German Election

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/six-charts-to-help-americans-understand-the-upcoming-german-election

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The german reseller of VW will lance a plaint against mother VW with a sum of hundreds of millions.
They claim to be left in the rain with the VW clients - as VW production does nothing for them.

Lets see what will happen in the last quarter of 2017. After that VW thinks to be safe as
the legal attempts from clients might be too late.

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Lets wait and see what tomorrow's results will show:

As about the VW Diesel Scandal it will be important if the Traffic Minister Dobrindt (CSU party)
will survive or will be sent into the desert.
This was the man who brought not ONE positive point to the German traffic as there were:
• Diesel problem US / EU worldwide
• German highway MAUT (tax)
• New BER Berlin Airport which will not open soon (was foreseen to be active since 2014)
• Renewing roads / highways to a better level
etc.

It does not matter if he is longer the Traffic minister as for sure there are some lobby jobs in
the German car industry

Happy elections then!
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• New BER Berlin Airport which will not open soon (was foreseen to be active since 2014)

The famous "Berliner Luft" (Berlin air): Once people get too much of it they are so stoned that they
cannot complete semi-complex projects within 30 years anymore ...

The never-ending story of Germany's #3 ranked airport-to-be (actual #3 is DUS):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

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Munich prosecutors arrest second Audi employee in emissions probe
MUNICH, Sept 28 (Reuters) - Munich prosecutors have arrested
a second Audi <NSUG.DE> employee in connection with the
carmaker's emissions scandal and widenened out the number of
suspects in a related investigation, a spokeswoman said on
Thursday.
Prosecutors have also searched personal premises, the
spokeswoman said, adding that corporate locations were not part
of the raid.
Audi admitted in November 2015, two months after parent
Volkswagen's <VOWG_p.DE> diesel emissions scandal broke, that
its 3.0 litre V6 diesel engines were fitted with an auxiliary
control device deemed illegal in the United States.

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VW says today that some problems arise around the 2l models in USA where extra money needs to be set aside to solve the problems: VW stock holders were today informed that some extra billions need to be set aside. WIN WARNING!
Nothing told about the same affected 10 million VW in Europe though.

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VW faces fines from some 500 thousand gasoline vehicules sold from 2009 to 2016. Those cars never had a legit admission on US markets. Such could cause more fines - means 2,5 billion dollars estimated or more.
If those cars need to be retaken / paid - the sum could add up again.
Of course the problems found in USA will affect EU and Asia countries too - that number of affected cars might be much much larger.
All that threat is still not solved.

VW stocks had a slump of 4% on Eurex markets today.

Still no end on the problems at the horizon
as all problems came from top management of VW -
and Porsche (one manager from Porsche went to prison already this week)

GFIs1
who still does not see any survival of this cheating PREMIUM car maker group (see first posts 2 years back in this thread)

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Those interesting maps with link sent by Fat Tails page 3 in this thread is discontinued.

Some validated data of the most important air pollutants here (no near real time) but comprehensive:

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/dashboards/air-pollutant-emissions-data-viewer

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VW says no plans for now to shift Skoda production
BERLIN, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Volkswagen <VOWG_p.DE> said on
Friday there were no plans at present to change where Czech
subsidiary Skoda makes its cars, as it seeks to allay the fears
of unions and politicians in the republic about losing work to
Germany.
Skoda's main union on Thursday threatened to cut back on
overtime work if the VW group were to shift output to Germany.
[nL8N1MG3O9]
Facing possible cuts in production capacity at home,
Volkswagen managers and labour leaders want to benefit from
Skoda's success by taking on some of the Czech company's work in
Germany and make the lower-cost stablemate pay more for shared
technology, company sources have said. [nL8N1M652O]
In particular VW workers' representatives are demanding the
transfer of some Skoda production to their underused German
plants to offset declining output of the VW Passat and ageing
Golf that could otherwise threaten more jobs.
"At the present time, no changes (in production) are planned
for the Skoda brand," a spokesman at VW's Wolfsburg headquarters
said on Friday.
However, tensions between VW's various carmaking brands are
expected to rise ahead of a Nov. 17 supervisory board meeting
which is due to approve annual investment budgets across the
group.
Skoda Chief Executive Bernhard Maier has told staff that the
Czech unit would only make use of VW's wider maufacturing
network to cope with peaks in demand, according to a letter sent
to employees which was seen by Reuters on Friday.
Skoda now ranks as VW's second most profitable car brand
behind Porsche and production capacity at its three Czech plants
is stretched to the limit.
The company will have to consider raising capacity to be
able to meet customer demand, Maier said.
"To meet the large customer interest in our cars, we
continue to rely on the effort and flexibility of the entire
workforce and the constructive cooperation with the (Czech) KOVO
union," he said in the letter to staff.
"As a matter of principle, our Czech factories are and will
remain first choice," he added.

------

Even the "denial" is a telltale sign of the underlying mindset ...

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How toxic is your car exhaust? - BBC News

Interesting. Especially the Qashqai.

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Thanks for this. Quite shocking.


For the TL;DR among us (admittedly I skim-read most of the article):


Quoting 
So what does the test show?

Quite a lot, it seems to me.

That a diesel can be better for NOx than an old banger with a petrol engine.

That older diesels can beat newer ones.

That the European testing regime failed at some point in the last decade.


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For the TL;DR among us

It did ramble a little bit, but I agree, Quite shocking.

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It did ramble a little bit, but I agree, Quite shocking.

The BBC started doing this type of long pieces about a year ago or so. I think it's good, as we're becoming too much a society driven by buzzwords and tidbits, our attention span can no longer go through long articles so that tries to counter that.

Anyway, back to topic, the other quote I wanted to include but forgot was


Quoting 
This narrow focus has made it easy to game the system, he says.

Auto makers rather than trying to meet the spirit of the regulations are trying to meet the letter of the law.

I sincerely hope that these new EU tests really are tough and reflect real-word situations.

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Obvious really, but the BBC dieselgate article reminded me of the last financial crisis, and the roles of the regulators and the bond rating agencies; the same 3 factors always apply:

1) The devil is always in the details, and producers will go to extraordinary lengths to exploit such.
2) Government interventions nearly always make things worse, at least at first.
3) Regulations and ratings are pointless unless they are done by truly independent bodies and are based on good science and math.

Cheers

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There we are: Ford accused to have manipulated over 500k diesel trucks!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ford-motor-lawsuit/ford-sued-by-truck-owners-alleging-diesel-emissions-cheating-idUSKBN1EZ292

AMERICA FIRST: "we don't cheat - but deliver the cleanest diesel trucks ever"

With this law suit against Ford and Bosch (Bosch already paid a sweet fine of 327.5mio $) VW's tiny little fine of 25 billion dollars to the USA seems ridiculous - isn't it?

Let's see to where those investigations will lead.
Especially in the old European countries... (Fahrverbote für Ford?)

GFIs1

I see - should open a NEW thread - as the VW diesel scandal seems to be a world wide one

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Quoting 
The law firm representing the owners, Hagens Berman, has launched lawsuits in the last year against General Motors Co and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV as well as engine maker Cummins Inc, making similar allegations.

Amazingly this is a non-event here, and not in the news at all. But then US Society is so litigious that people may just not give it any credit and just assume Hagens Berman are just another ambulance chasing law firm.

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Amazingly this is a non-event here, and not in the news at all. But then US Society is so litigious that people may just not give it any credit and just assume Hagens Berman are just another ambulance chasing law firm.

EU wants to get that simple money of 25 billion $ sent over the ocean with ZERO compensation back.
As those illegal VW cars were banned in USA the same will happen in EU if US cars are no longer tolerated...
Think of America first against EU first...
Then things might seem a bit more clear.
As in Europe some intensive US law suits are in the news - more of those incredible US fines are @ hand.
Means US cars will be under special investigation on imports...
Be sure to hear even in Houston more of this sort... as well as from China!

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EU wants to get that simple money of 25 billion $ sent over the ocean with ZERO compensation back.
As those illegal VW cars were banned in USA the same will happen in EU if US cars are no longer tolerated...
Think of America first against EU first...
Then things might seem a bit more clear.
As in Europe some intensive US law suits are in the news - more of those incredible US fines are @ hand.
Means US cars will be under special investigation on imports...
Be sure to hear even in Houston more of this sort... as well as from China!

GFIs1

I would dare to put my hand in the fire, based on my experience with China
if the German car makers were fooling the emissions tests a little bit
what the Chinese equivalent should look like ?

**no comment**

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ford-motor-lawsuit/ford-sued-by-truck-owners-alleging-diesel-emissions-cheating-idUSKBN1EZ292?feedType=RSS&feedName=environmentNews

https://jalopnik.com/lawsuit-accuses-ford-of-cheating-diesel-emissions-on-50-1821962910

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/ford-sued-by-truck-owners-claiming-diesel-engines-were-rigged

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/10/us-law-firm-accuses-ford-of-rigging-trucks-to-cheat-emission-tests.html

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2018/01/10/ford-super-duty-diesel-emissions-lawsuit/1022910001/

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ford-bosch-named-in-diesel-emissions-cheating-lawsuit/

Ford Becomes Newest Target of Diesel Emissions Cheat Lawsuit - The Drive

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2018/01/10/ford-super-duty-diesel-emissions-lawsuit/1021788001/

https://www.axios.com/ford-s-1515612072-06106175-103d-496a-bdda-2b3beca81b63.html?source=sidebar

Drivers Sue Ford, Allege Super Duty Emissions Cheating - Motor Trend

https://www.motoring.com.au/owners-sue-ford-over-emissions-cheating-110511/

etc... etc... please make your own research

Hey @SMCJB - do you still think this is a non-event in USA and Australia?

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Maybe 'non event' was the wrong choice of words. 'Lacking coverage in mainstream media would have been better'. Most American's don't watch/read Reuters/Bloomberg/CNBC - they watch local news and read Facebook & Twitter. There's a reason 'Fake News' is so prominent here. Too much/most US News is about selling advertising, not producing accurate or informational content. I honestly think if you did a survey of Americans less than 1 in 20 would know about this.

Case in point. Houston is the 4th largest city in America. The local news paper is the Houston Chronicle. I just did a search for "Diesel Engine" on their site, using Google. On pages 3 and 4 of the results there's 1 article (each page) about VW. Nothing about the 'Hagens Berman' lawsuits which I believe have been going on for months.
 
Code
"diesel engine" site:www.chron.com

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The local news paper is the Houston Chronicle. I just did a search for "Diesel Engine" on their site, using Google. On pages 3 and 4 of the results there's 1 article (each page) about VW. Nothing about the 'Hagens Berman' lawsuits which I believe have been going on for months.
 
Code
"diesel engine" site:www.chron.com

Well thanks for opening our European eyes.
Be sure - those things will come up when real tough fines for US car makers as well as import restrictions to Europe, Asia et al will be on the table.
From that moment on some stocks will have shocking movements and US people might be informed.
Of course we are very aware that a normal US citizen is not informed about what is behind the guards. Is a lack of speaking more than ONE language as well as to think about what might influence the states. The actual president seems to support those short thoughts.

GFIs1

PS: please be informed that above mentioned president wants to visit Switzerland (yes - my country) to attend the WEF party (World Economic Forum in Davos) as the second US president since 2000. He will be here to dictate some more America First sentences. But this is not welcomed as the WEF is a place for world wide open trading and securing people in every country. We will see what impact this might have for USA. For sure - THIS will be not even make headlines in your local tv's! Just to know: at the WEF some important US billionaires like Bill Gates under others are on board nearly every year...

PS II: US pres needs to bring along 1500 people to secure his life during his stay in the most secured country in the world - named Switzerland travelling to DAVOS. First big aircraft landed today in Zurich.
Just to know - the small village of Davos in the snowy mountains has exactly 11136 inhabitants...

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Some off topic here - but influencing the markets around the world:
The biggest lender to USA (according to news today) is CHINA*.
They lent 1.2 trillion dollars in bonds to the USA.
As China is thinking to no longer invest in the US bonds that might
get USA into troubles. And the US $ will shrink against any other
currency very soon.
Influence of the stock markets and car makers - such theme
should be above every soap opera made by US film makers...

THINK about it...
GFIs1

*Germany is on place 19 in this list

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Some off topic here - but influencing the markets around the world:
The biggest lender to USA (according to news today) is CHINA*.
They lent 1.2 trillion dollars in bonds to the USA.
As China is thinking to no longer invest in the US bonds that might
get USA into troubles. And the US $ will shrink against any other
currency very soon.
Influence of the stock markets and car makers - such theme
should be above every soap opera made by US film makers...

THINK about it...
GFIs1

*Germany is on place 19 in this list

That would be pure self destruction...
where will china dump all there cheap low quality stuff if they kill the US
and indirectly the US consumer market ?

If you can point me a viable alternative, then i give your theory a chance....
if not, no chance...

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That would be pure self destruction...
where will china dump all there cheap low quality stuff if they kill the US
and indirectly the US consumer market ?

If you can point me a viable alternative, then i give your theory a chance....
if not, no chance...

Well - you are right!!!
There is no way of dumping...
but think of dumplings in China

GFIs1 who is very aware about upcoming import/export problems around the globe

Now we are back to the theme of the thread: IMPACT to ECONOMIES

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According to this FT article things aren't so bad in Wolfsburg. Paid off the Diesel Scandal (SO FAR) from cash flow...
https://www.ft.com/content/a12ec7e2-fa01-11e7-9b32-d7d59aace167

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According to this FT article things aren't so bad in Wolfsburg. Paid off the Diesel Scandal (SO FAR) from cash flow...
https://www.ft.com/content/a12ec7e2-fa01-11e7-9b32-d7d59aace167

Just to know that more than 1000 legal cases are not done...
Plus to know that discussions are most within Germany - that is less than 15% of VW-group market.
As the tough sentences (USA with really low percentage) had been given in the last year(s) some more might
be at the horizon.
The moment Germany will close cities for Diesel cars we might see some reaction in the treatment of VW clients.

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Carillion covered up a lot of mess with just cashflow into their own now broken Ponzi, a lot of which is/was apparently owned by the Landesbanks. I don't know much about VW core accounts but cashflow can hide many things until the time is ripened..

What we do know is that all big corporations are way too big for our little person's health.

Cheers

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Audi - daughter of VW - needs to recall V6 models of A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q5, SQ5 und Q7 fulfilling Norm Euro 6 because of "illegal defeat devices". Those cars are all upper class and are sold worldwide as "Premium Cars" with BEST German technology - slogan "Vorsprung durch Technik" which means "ahead because of best latest technology".

How many affected cars they say?

130000

And this 2.5 years after the VW scandal went public... **
Shadows are getting longer.

GFIs1

** Audi A8, flagship of Audi with TDI-motor, 8 cylinders and admission Euro-6. This model was produced from 2013 until August 2017 with the same defeat device.
How many VIP and politicians are riding this car?

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Nearly undergone the news just around Christmas time:

Audi has to recall in Germany 330000 cars - risking to burn. Models A4, A5 and Q5 built from 2011 to 2015 may get on fire because of a special heater.
Already October 2017 Audi needed to recall in USA 250.000 same cars with the same problems.

source: Audi ruft 330.000 Autos wegen Brandgefahr zurück - SPIEGEL ONLINE
german

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NYT:- 10 Monkeys and a Beetle: Inside VW’s Campaign for ‘Clean Diesel’

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/world/europe/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-monkeys.html

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Audi - daughter of VW - needs to recall V6 models of A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q5, SQ5 und Q7 fulfilling Norm Euro 6 because of "illegal defeat devices". Those cars are all upper class and are sold worldwide as "Premium Cars" with BEST German technology - slogan "Vorsprung durch Technik" which means "ahead because of best latest technology".

How many affected cars they say? 130000

And this 2.5 years after the VW scandal went public... **
Shadows are getting longer.

GFIs1

As you say the shadows get longer.

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NYT:- 10 Monkeys and a Beetle: Inside VW’s Campaign for ‘Clean Diesel’

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/world/europe/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-monkeys.html

Great article - thanks @SMCJB

In fact - VW and Toyota are still battling for being No 1 in selling cars worldwide.

What does it mean - to "sell a car"? - some questions:
• a produced car - at the end of the building process - still on industry area
• a car - shipped on a vessel to country X
• a car in a re seller shop
• a car reserved/ordered by a client
• a car prepaid (partly or fully) by a client
• a car sold and delivered to a client
• a car sold and resisting the guarantee (2 years plus) given by the seller
• a new car replacing an old car because of winning a legal case
• add more..

Questions over questions about those statistics:
The real threat for cheating companies is the fact that the "sold car" numbers need to be adjusted to those that are real driving around - not those that are on hold, were produced or shipped.

Given those "real" numbers - things might be very different.

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Many 'car' companies make most profit from their financing operations.

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NYT:- 10 Monkeys and a Beetle: Inside VW’s Campaign for ‘Clean Diesel’

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/world/europe/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-monkeys.html

Thank You For Smoking, anyone?

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I saw the Netflix original series "Dirty Money", episode "Hard NOx", last night which is about the VW diesel scandal. It's probably 15 mins longer than it needed to be but it was very interesting. While it mostly focused on VW, even going back to it's ties with Hitler, it did mention Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Ford & GM and the NYT Monkey story above. It was interesting that at the time TDI was developed it said that US emissions standards were tougher than the EU. It also (very lightly) accuses the German Goverment and EU of being implicit in the scandal. Apparently the Germans have some rule that says that under certain circumstances "Defeat Devices" are allowed, and one of the conditions is 'to protect the engine' so it was alleged that that's what all the manufacturers claim. If you like documentaries and have Netflix, probably worth the watch. I gather its available in French, German and Spanish for our euro friends.

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Daimler said ALWAYS they had NO cheating devices in their Diesel cars.
haha..
As we know today Daimler had 2 very efficient defeat devices installed in their Premium (sic!) cars:
There is one to shut down cleaning after exactly having reached 26km after starting engine and the
other one is reading the "slippage" when starting: on a test roll the speed is much more than the
same on the road - with weight etc. - thus the system knows exactly when the car is in test mode.

Daimler said that they were "cooperating" since 2 years with US.

But at the end this is all very ridiculous - yes?
Even boss Zetsche of Daimler will no longer travel to the USA - now we know why!

Of course Daimler will be fined by the USA for billions... Plus every client will get money back
...and the German client will get NOTHING.

This is the freedom of the world

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Well - the "Bundesverwaltungsgericht of Leipzig Germany" was hesitating...
Means no vehicular DIESEL traffic bans in German towns were announced yesterday.
But the highest court in Germany concerning this matter wanted to have more
time until next Tuesday...
Whatever - there will be ban for Diesel Cars entering certain cities in Germany with
high NOx problems (measured for years)
see actual NOx map of Stuttgart town here REALTIME:

https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/feinstaub

What does it mean for the Germand Diesel vehicle suppliers?

Not good news - things might have a bunch of unhappy clients of VW, AUDI, Skoda, Porsche, SEAT et al.
And car revamp of every Diesel model from German vendor might be a pain in the a..

VW group is having yearly assembly to show "golden numbers" with a highly earning rate for every stock holder.

BUT
Things are not developing well for the car maker - as so many things are not solved until now.
The "free" software" is not performing well on the vehicules recalled.
Some hardware option on the cleaning part (NOx) is needed - but VW is not ready to pay for those change
in every vehicle concerned. That means a cost of around 2000 € per car involved. Means xx billions for the
company.

Without those "upgrades" VW might have a nightmare to get their cars legally driving in countries and into
cities. If they will not find a regular answer - the company faces millions of owners with complaints very soon.

That easy
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A razzia in Porsche premises brought up 100 persons to interview and many documents were brought away. Everything in the name of the Diesel scandal (motor manipulation) in Porsche cars.
Finally three people were arrested - one of them manager of Porsche.

Things will become clearer soon. After intense investigation.
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Interesting... is it too good to be true? https://www.ft.com/content/95d990c8-4887-11e8-8ee8-cae73aab7ccb

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$33.5 million after a settlement in Maryland yesterday:

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/04/25/us/ap-us-volkswagen-emissions-settlement-maryland.html

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The US government has charged Martin Winterkorn, the former chief executive officer of Volkswagen, with fraud in the company's diesel emissions-cheating scandal. Max 25 years of prison possible..

Volkswagen ex-CEO charged with fraud in diesel emissions scandal

In Germany some fraud investigation is on its way - especially if the VW company warned its investors to late.

More to come for sure.
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Ex CEO of VW group, Mr. Martin Winterkorn, is said to have "earned" more than 100 million € plus at least 30 million € feeding his pension fund. And he "earns" every day 3000 € still until who knows.

But now this seems to have finished: he can no longer visit his properties in Mallorca (Spain) nor all the others he has abroad because of the drowning US arrest crossing any border.
Even more worse: VW has accused him for the 25 billion desaster with the still not finished Diesel scandal. This might him cost such a bunch that he will need social support in the future. (Frankfurter Zeitung am Sonntag).

GFIs1

PS: German justice said that last preparations against M. Winterkorn are at stake - things will be published in June/July

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German Minister Scheuer invited yesterday chief of Daimler, Mr. Zetsche to explain now how many cars are sold with one up to 5 defeat devices. Mr. Zetsche spoke from nearly 800000 in Europe - means for Germany only a total of 238000.
Scheuer has said to recall all of them as soon as possible for an update.
Daimler answered to react over justice to reject the recall which Scheuer did not accept.

Some insight here: https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20180612/p2g/00m/0bu/031000c

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German justice finally put a fine of 1 billion € on VW.
VW did not reject but accept - means they admit to be responsible in Europe to to have betrayed clients, ministers and worked against environment.
The money has to be paid within 6 weeks to Niedersachsen - where the investigation was made.
Just to know: All other trials in Europe are nor halted or affected - clients may push more on VW which will result in more payments out of the cash box of VW.

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Fahrvergnugen! Aah scheisse...

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There are millions of vehicles in Europe that are belching out far more Nitrous Oxide from burning diesel fuel, than what was once believed. The great lie by all of the auto manufactures was that they had developed diesel technology that was somehow cleaner than regular gasoline technology. It wasn't...and they got caught when someone in California discovered how the cheating devices worked on the VW's. And all of the auto makers were doing it.

But, is that what is causing the huge rise in ground level Nitrous Oxide pollution in European cities?

Is there also cheating in the testing of CO2/N2O emissions from private and commercial jet aircraft that are burning diesel-like fuels in the atmosphere over the planet? Is what is happening to VW a red herring to divert everyone's attention away from a much larger pollution issue? An issue that all of the World's governments know exist, but don't want made public...because they don't have a ready alternative to commercial jet traffic for fast transportation of goods.

My own two cents,

Eric.

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The personal pression on Audi chief Stadler was increasing in the last weeks. Now an end of this came up this morning: the police arrested the chief of Audi and member of the board of VW. This means bad news to the group. Never had been arrested a member of the board of a car maker in Germany.
News will clarify soon where things will go in this never ending story in the Diesel scandal...

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Stock holders of VW had accused the company to have not or too late informed the stock holders of VW in the cause of the diesel scandal 2015.
The trial started in Braunschweig and some first positive results for stock holders are to recognize today. Stock price of VW nearly fell 50% after the news 2015 about the diesel scandal. Therefore the stock holders made a complaint of 9 billion EURO against VW.

If the main complaint of seeing 2008 as the first moment of betrayal versus the stock holders - this might be a breakthrough for many. At the moment there is a discussion of around 2012 which is the last year for today to get some positive results. Former CEO Winterkorn - which was not really accused directly - now is in the eye of the hurricane. It is part of big money lost and the responsible persons of the past might be torn to the sunlight again...

We will see - some pay back to people involved in Europe might start right now! Which is time. Finally

GFIs1

PS: New German article here
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/diesel-affaere/volkswagen-prozess-martin-winterkorn-haette-aufklaeren-muessen-15782543.html

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Is that ok?
In fact - VW is producing unmeasured more cars every month. A big problem has arised for those are NOT SOLD. But brought to several parking lots - even never finished new airport BER in Berlin was taken as a super large parking lot - to let stay the still unsold cars at the sideline. That is all because those vehicles are not ready to get into service because they had not passed the new WLTP test that all the intermediate parked cars had still not yet passed. That wlll take a lot of more time as all variants have to be tested as a new variance. In fact VW counts those "fabricated" but not yet passed cars as SOLD. Which is not ok for the statistics. And where is the clientele to buy a car that had been burned half a year or more in the bright sunlight - still sold as a NEW CAR... Only Mercedes Benz is saying that all their cars had been tested positive and passed.
VW now has to clean up the past and to head to non burner motors for the future. They said not to change the strategy. If not - all the company with its 12 daughters will be down and sorted out. IF VW still survives until then.
So - with the main theme of this thread: VW is still strong gambling. And not far away from sudden death.

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Only Hamburg has closed some 200m of city road for diesel cars 1-4. All others are allowed.

Now 2 big threats are ahead:

1) There are at least 5 new cities to take control over clean air act very soon. Means Frankfurt, Munich and others.
2) The threat to take EURO 1-4 cars out is announced - but very soon EURO 5 cars may get a ban to enter those cities. That means several 100 thousands of cars that are no longer admitted to get into those cities - nor pass through on a highway...

That result arises because of the German government not having taken serious steps but always playing the game with the car makers. Now is the time when EU Brussels is stepping in... NOT good for the German car makers.

AND FOR ALL GERMAN CAR MAKING INDUSTRY

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https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-18/transition-time-volkswagen-announces-electric-all-campaign

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For tomorrow Sunday Chancellor Merkel has invited the big 3 car makers to decide the tactics for hardware enhancements on sold diesel cars. Merkel wants to make pay the carmakers VW, BMW, Mercedes 100% for on the road cars Diesel 4, 5 and 6.
Lets see what will be the result

Of course the judges went in the last 6 months for the clients:
Hardest occurence: a client got a new car incl. all guarantees for nothing and had not to pay for the km he made with the old one.
Might make some fire onto the lazy carmakers that only want to set up rebate when in exchange of a new car with higher Euro class.
Means at least 3 years AFTER detection of the diesel scandal which came up more than ten years ago

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  #390 (permalink)
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The personal pression on Audi chief Stadler was increasing in the last weeks. Now an end of this came up this morning: the police arrested the chief of Audi and member of the board of VW. This means bad news to the group. Never had been arrested a member of the board of a car maker in Germany.
News will clarify soon where things will go in this never ending story in the Diesel scandal...

GFIs1

Audi chief now sits more than 3 months in German jail. He wants now to quit VW - means to cancel the contract that is for mid 2019. This might help him to get out of prison earlier.
But some golden parachute might disappear.

We will see next week from Thursday on what the judges will tell.

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the company - according to sources in Germany.
But Stadler can still not get out of jail. He calculates that quitting the VW group might help him to make things faster.

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German police started today a Razzia in all German production plants of OPEL. It is being said that OPEL had installed in 3 different models of Diesel cars some illegal software.
Along with different sources there are ~100k vehicles built from 2013 to 2017.
More to come.

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AUDI had built in larger Diesel Motors into their "Premium Cars". The motors came from *mother" VW (same group) and had obviously software with defeat device. Which meant that the motors blew out much more CO2 and of course quadrupled the limit of NOx.

Finally Germany comes up with a fine for AUDI of 800 Million EURO for this betrayal-case.
AUDI has accepted the fine... according to legal voices from Munich.

To sum it up: EX-chief of AUDI Robert Stadler is still in jail.
Some others are free but are waiting for their legal case(s).

Germany (politics) and German "Premium Car Makers" are under survey and slipped into troubled waters.
Which has mid- to long term effects on the economy.
Just to know where the voyage heads...

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Third largest reseller from VW group in Hamburg "Tiedtke" is out of business.
Because so many illegal Diesel cars came back to be replaced by newer cars - the renowned sellers of cars from VW group (Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and TRATON AG (commercial vehicles, trucks, and buses) under the marques MAN, Scania) are under high pressure:
Every car taken back costs €28 per day and car. And those have a large reduction in reselling price or will not being sold at all. This makes resellers of VW group weak - many of them are in trouble to stay in business. Banks are no longer backing them - and clients for the stinker cars are no longer around.
The more weight in the leasing business the higher the risk of bankruptcy.
More than 350000 cars are back at the seller - most of them outdated EURO 5.
Many sources.

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VW group (Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and TRATON AG (commercial vehicles, trucks, and buses) under the marques MAN, Scania) are under high pressure:

Had no idea they were all VW

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Had no idea they were all VW

True @SMCJB - VW group started small with AUDI Porsche, Seat and then Skoda.
Then bought many other companies to fill the portfolio. Trucks included.

Today the bigger car players in the market are condensing and drying out the rest.

In the new technology we can still find small and very small companies that make
a great business with electric cars, new mobility, software for connecting transport etc.
Still they are in the focus of the large "old school" car makers.

Here a short overview on VW group:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group

GFIs1

PS: I hope that real change from diesel/gas engines may emerge very soon.

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Today Stadler officially has been released from his 4 month adventure behind bars.
First he has to pay a non - official sum before he gets out.
Then he is forced to not contact any members of AUDI involved in the motor scandal.
And third he is still under investigation and under alleged betrayal.

Still he can not leave Germany - as US still has an open "most wanted" ticket abroad.

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This week the "Oberlandesgericht Karlsruhe" which is the second highest court in Germany judged that VW has to replace 3 different VW with a brand new car for their clients. Without any costs and without a deduction for the years the clients drove the cars. Those cars were equipped with illegal defeat devices. The cars were from 2009 to 2011.
The court accepted the fraudulent behavior of VW group who betrayed clients and accepted damage to the environment just for their own profits. The court measured that it is not a big deal for VW to change the cars with a new vehicle rather than a "software update" which might shorten the life of the car.
VW went into revision to the BGH (Bundesgerichtshof) - the highest court in Germany.
This verdict means a real hammer - as the BGH hat no case of VW until now because VW always made a "deal" with the clients to prevent from a judgment from top. The BGH recently gave out a brief overview to the public of how they see the base for a future case. That was the start for a client-friendly judgement.
On September 30th this year the most important case will start which will have impact on hundred thousands of VW group clients who took legal action against the car producer.

In the latest past VW, Daimler, Porsche and BOSCH paid large fines to the state.
For Daimler clients where the scandal came up later than with other companies - the betrayed clients may still have time to take legal actions - as the time limit is 3 years after public knowledge of the scandal company.

Will be a hot summer and autumn for courts and car makers as well as car dealers.

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After 4 months of prison for Audi ex boss Rupert Stadler some news channels say that the prosecutors officially accused today Rupert Stadler for "betrayal, forgery of documents, illegal national and international advertising".
In the papers are included cars with illegal software: 250.712 cars from Audi, 71.577 cars from VW and 112.131 cars from Porsche.
If a lawsuit will follow the court "Landgericht München II" has to decide next.

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Impact on German economy: I live in Bamberg and Bosch has a 7500 employees here producing components for combustion engines including 4000 workers producing diesel pumps and injectors. This past April, thousands of Bosch workers protested the climate policies, ie anti diesel policies. Here is an article about the situation , it’s in german so google translate: https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.br.de/nachrichten/amp/bayern/bosch-mitarbeiter-demonstrieren-in-bamberg,RMeCrhc

The impact: Over past year, 100 shifts were reduced because of reduced diesel demand. over the next 10 year half the diesel work force may be reduced so that will have s real impact on the local economy.


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