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VW scandal and impact on German economy
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VW scandal and impact on German economy

  #121 (permalink)
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JohnS View Post
and either reselling them in non-EU lands (way to go VW for your "environmental" good will thinking) or sending them to the scrap heap.

THIS is the second scandal!

GFIs1

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  #122 (permalink)
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GFIs1 View Post
THIS is the second scandal!

GFIs1


I do not think that this is a scandal.

The Diesel engines built by Volkswagen are extremely economic and have by far lower CO2 emissions than conventional gasoline engines. Also they can be considered state of the art with the exception of the NO2 emissions. Technically, you may even value the low fuel consumption higher than the emission of NO2.

Currently, the cars that are sold to developing countries are those that were on our roads about 10 to 20 years ago. The cars that are currently debated are much more advanced and definitely have lower emissions than those that are usually being shipped to African countries and countries of the former Soviet Union.

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  #123 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
I do not think that this is a scandal.

The Diesel engines built by Volkswagen are extremely economic and have by far lower CO2 emissions than conventional gasoline engines. Also they can be considered state of the art with the exception of the NO2 emissions. Technically, you may even value the low fuel consumption higher than the emission of NO2.

Currently, the cars that are sold to developing countries are those that were on our roads about 10 to 20 years ago. The cars that are currently debated are much more advanced and definitely have lower emissions than those that are usually being shipped to African countries and countries of the former Soviet Union.

First:
If a company is fraudulently "reaching" current emission limits in many countries around the world over years, cheating clients, states, climate protocols etc. etc.
And collecting subvention money from states, clients - and making Large PR with the support of states and clients - having the "Ultimate Clean Diesel Technology"...
And then long after ALL is coming out and the company tells states and all people that they only made a "mistake"!

This was discussed in this thread.

Then the company decides instead of repairing the damage done to x and y - the same company thinks of taking
back all the non conform cars to export them to countries where climate restrictions are not controlled and sell "new technology" to all already before cheated clients:

THEN
we have another scandal
Point
This is simply ridiculous and can not be accepted by any means

What are the marketing slogans for those cars? The following sentences are snapshots from today's websites - weeks after
the scandal

VW:
"VW - das Auto!"
"Diesel Clean Technology"

vw.com:
"Quality and expertise. At your service."

"Nobody knows your car better than our Volkswagen Certified Technicians. Highly trained and relentlessly dedicated, they use Genuine VW Parts. After all, that’s what today’s German engineering demands. Quality. Performance. Peace of mind. Go with the pros for all the right reasons."

and the peak of the iceberg*:
"Prepaid Scheduled Maintenance
Invest in a Volkswagen maintenance program that can help protect your vehicle’s value and save on costs over time."


audi.com:
"Fortschritt durch Technik"
The mobility of tomorrow. Intelligent products and solutions
and on the SAME main webpage:
"In the affected markets, you can find all information about the recall campaign for diesel exhaust gas EA189 (23Q4) directly on your national Audi website."
"Genuine VW Parts
Identical to the factory originals, for uncompromised VW performance."


*did VW really take care about the cheated clients or others - after the scandal was in every news? - NO
*are clients being helped by VW et al within a reasonable time? NO
VW knew since 2014 from the EPA facts found on their Diesel engines - but never reacted appropriate.
Not even today - look at their web pages.
so why can we find such arrogant behaviour still today?

GFIs1

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  #124 (permalink)
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GFIs1 View Post

Then the company decides instead of repairing the damage done to x and y - the same company thinks of taking
back all the non conform cars to export them to countries where climate restrictions are not controlled and sell "new technology" to all already before cheated clients:

THEN
we have another scandal
Point
This is simply ridiculous and can not be accepted by any means

You are absolutely wrong.

First technically, if you talk about "climate restrictions", the CO2 emissions of those cars are the lowest that you can find. The problem here are NOx emissions only. NOx is not affecting the climate. Let us look at the NOx emission limits over the last years.

Euro 2 (1996 - 2000): 900 mg/km
Euro 3 (2000 - 2005): 500 mg/km
Euro 4 (2005 - 2009): 250 mg/km
Euro 5 (2009 - 2014): 180 mg/km
Euro 6 (since 2014): 80 mg/km
US Tier 2: 31 mg/km

You may assume that the cars definitely comply with the Euro 3 norm which was in place until 2005. We know that the cars cannot be easily retrofitted to comply with the US norm. However, it should be relatively easy to attain the limits imposed by the Euro 5 norm, which was in place until 2014.

For most of the cars a software update is probably good enough. The software update would slightly reduce the horsepower and the mileage per gallon. Maybe not acceptable for old customers, but certainly good for export to other countries.

It is obvious, that a retrofit of the cars will be most difficult in the US. Why not take back those cars and export them to countries, where Euro 5 has not even be introduced? I mean the Euro 5 cars were good enough to be sold here in Europe last year. And the average car on the road in Europe is probably a Euro 4 car. The retrofitted cars would be above average compared to the current European fleet! But it would be probably difficult to modify them to match current US standards.

As I said before, it is up to the legislator to define the limits and specifications. And Volkswagen has to comply with them, but they certainly do not need to overcomply. I even believe that there will a strong demand for those Diesel cars on an international scale. After all they are pretty economic.

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  #125 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
You are absolutely wrong.


It is obvious, that a retrofit of the cars will be most difficult in the US. Why not take back those cars and export them to countries, where Euro 5 has not even be introduced? I mean the Euro 5 cars were good enough to be sold here in Europe last year. And the average car on the road in Europe is probably a Euro 4 car. The retrofitted cars would be above average compared to the current European fleet! But it would be probably difficult to modify them to match current US standards.
c.


Yep- Let's get those cars off our streets in the US- At least when they are returned the steering wheels of these cars
will be on the correct side.

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  #126 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
For most of the cars a software update is probably good enough. The software update would slightly reduce the horsepower and the mileage per gallon. Maybe not acceptable for old customers, but certainly good for export to other countries.

@Fat Tails

Are YOU really believing that VW will buy back affected vehicules, MAKING a software update on every car and EXPORT them to countries that do not have even EURO5 limits?
Are you kidding?

GoForIt

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  #127 (permalink)
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Opel Zafira CDTi 1,6l also with cheating software?

Up to now - Diesel cars of the VW group with all subcompanies one motor type was found to be manipulated.
All other german car makers were not found to have such cheating software for emissions built in.

EURO6 cars with the new standard
were until now not involved in the scandal - at least not with VW. This may have changed:

News from Swiss Depeschen Agentur yesterday
mention that a Opel Zafira CDTi 1,6l with EURO6 standard has been found with irregular behaviour in 3 tests done by Swiss Institute of Berner Fachhochschule in Berne. In some driving situations (when all 4 wheels worked) the car had 17 times more NoX emission than EURO6 limits allow.
Only when the two front wheels were turning - the emissions were within those limits.
This test was published yesterday by Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) in Berlin.
The car maker Opel said the test was not seriously done and is not accepted by the company.

Original message (german):
"In der Affäre um manipulierte Abgastests bei Volkswagen erhebt die Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) nun auch schwere Vorwürfe gegen den Autobauer Opel. Die Abgasprüfstelle der Berner Fachhochschule habe einen Opel Zafira 1.6 CDTi untersucht und dabei in bestimmten Fahrsituationen bis zu 17-fach höhere Stickoxid-Emissionen gemessen als nach dem Euro-6-Grenzwert zulässig, teilte die DUH am Freitag in Berlin mit.

Der Autobauer wies die Anschuldigungen als unseriös und nicht nachvollziehbar zurück. «Da ist überhaupt nichts dran», sagte ein Opel-Sprecher der deutschen Nachrichtenagentur dpa in Frankfurt.

Nach DUH-Angaben stiess der getestete Opel Zafira im offiziellen Prüfzyklus mit drehenden Hinterrädern in drei Tests jeweils mehr Stickoxid aus als erlaubt. Im Zweirad-Antriebmodus habe das Fahrzeug die Vorschriften hingegen erfüllt. (SDA)"

GFIs1

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  #128 (permalink)
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GFIs1 View Post
Up to now - Diesel cars of the VW group with all subcompanies one motor type was found to be manipulated.
All other german car makers were not found to have such cheating software for emissions built in.

EURO6 cars with the new standard
were until now not involved in the scandal - at least not with VW. This may have changed:

News from Swiss Depeschen Agentur yesterday
mention that a Opel Zafira CDTi 1,6l with EURO6 standard has been found with irregular behaviour in 3 tests done by Swiss Institute of Berner Fachhochschule in Berne. In some driving situations (when all 4 wheels worked) the car had 17 times more NoX emission than EURO6 limits allow.
Only when the two front wheels were turning - the emissions were within those limits.
This test was published yesterday by Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) in Berlin.
The car maker Opel said the test was not seriously done and is not accepted by the company.

Original message (german):
"In der Affäre um manipulierte Abgastests bei Volkswagen erhebt die Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) nun auch schwere Vorwürfe gegen den Autobauer Opel. Die Abgasprüfstelle der Berner Fachhochschule habe einen Opel Zafira 1.6 CDTi untersucht und dabei in bestimmten Fahrsituationen bis zu 17-fach höhere Stickoxid-Emissionen gemessen als nach dem Euro-6-Grenzwert zulässig, teilte die DUH am Freitag in Berlin mit.

Der Autobauer wies die Anschuldigungen als unseriös und nicht nachvollziehbar zurück. «Da ist überhaupt nichts dran», sagte ein Opel-Sprecher der deutschen Nachrichtenagentur dpa in Frankfurt.

Nach DUH-Angaben stiess der getestete Opel Zafira im offiziellen Prüfzyklus mit drehenden Hinterrädern in drei Tests jeweils mehr Stickoxid aus als erlaubt. Im Zweirad-Antriebmodus habe das Fahrzeug die Vorschriften hingegen erfüllt. (SDA)"

GFIs1


This makes me think of top sports
when someone is able all of a sudden to do a remarkable better delivery
there is probably something he found that is not yet detectable

For me it was only a matter of time before other brands would be in the same case
why would VW have very dirty engines
if the industry knows how to make very clean one's ?

If the industry does not know how to make very clean one's
the norm should be revised or the technology should be advanced

It is of course much more nuanced and more complex
but i think this will still spread across brands
i can't believe there were just a few criminals at VW to do this
while there is an easy way not to do

If they did, it's probably because there was not easy other engineering way...

funny...
as an engineer to think how to fool those tests

if (all 4 wheelse move && if gps location moves)
{
// we are driving
}
else
{
// we are in lab... shut down the polution
// don't care about performance
}

and all possible complex combinations
;-)))

you could even use the GPS location with 20 km radius around the test centers ;-)

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  #129 (permalink)
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rleplae View Post
funny...
as an engineer to think how to fool those tests

if (all 4 wheelse move && if gps location moves)
{
// we are driving
}
else
{
// we are in lab... shut down the polution
// don't care about performance
}

The initial condition is already flawed:
Even if 4x wheelspin && GPS location does not move, it could easily be outside of a lab.
e.g.: A female driver just forgot that the back end of the garage was already reached ...

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welly192 View Post
Yep- Let's get those cars off our streets in the US- At least when they are returned the steering wheels of these cars
will be on the correct side.

They must be taken off. It is like a game of soccer. The regulator makes the rules. If somebody does not comply, this is a foul. When the foul is noticed, the player - or the cars - should leave the playing ground and

- the application of all rules be restored
- or the players banned if they don't comply

Very simple indeed.

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