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PATs, Mack Style Price Action Trading YM ES NQ CL
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PATs, Mack Style Price Action Trading YM ES NQ CL

  #31 (permalink)
Site Administrator
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timefreedom View Post
Looks like this thread has already taken a life of it's own - not in the direction the op intended. I'm not familiar with the trading approach they utilize but if you want long term thread viability, the key is to post similar views to @Big Mike. This is not a bad thing - but a clear and present reality. When I first came to this forum, Mike was using Ninja and building indicators. Consequently, this forum attracted Ninja users and some incredibly talented and generous coders - some of whom we are still blessed to have contributing. But as Mike's focus has changed over the years what is viewed as "acceptable" has also changed - quite considerably actually. This is completely natural and understandable given the fact that those who join the forum are, by default, viewing Mike as an authority. Many of the original contributors are gone now - which is fine - and the emphasis has changed to "using context and discretion." I don't fault anyone's approach to the markets - what works for one might not be appropriate for another. We all certainly have extremely strong opinions, beliefs and confidence in what we do or we simply would not be able to effectively trade. That said, I hope the forum remains open to those of us who think using the futures market to swing trade or position trade is, for lack of a better description, borderline ridiculous. Further, it would be good to see the same rules applied, in terms of what is appropriate and tolerated, applied not only to people who disagree with Mike's current trading meme, but also to those who don't. Good luck.

@timefreedom,

Can you please help me by showing me specific examples of where I've applied rules unfairly.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
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6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

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  #32 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Not adding to the particular conversation, I just wanted to state that I, still, very much think of futures.io (formerly BMT) as one of the - if not the single most friendly and open community I've witnessed over the years - not only in trading but across many many topics.

Yes, there are hiccups every now and again and yes, sometimes, people get overly rude for no apparent reason. But @Big Mike does his best to preserve the friendly tone that so much defines this forum, even against people who he thinks highly of, maybe even looks up to (we all know how hat THAT is!) and yes, he might get it wrong sometimes, too - we're human after all!

I like being on futures.io (formerly BMT). It's a good place, not perfect but that's what makes it human.

Now let's get back to what matters: CHARTS CHARTS CHARTS!!

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  #33 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
@pipandrun, let's get this out in the open please. I would appreciate it if you would please help me understand how my reply in #4926 was insulting or how it added to the problem instead of trying to address it, or how it ended the thread.

Please feel free to break down my reply line-by-line and help me understand your point of view.

Thank you.

Mike

I assume, that josh had hopefully good intentions, but it apparently appeared very, very different to the other guys. But they could help themselves as to be seen in the posts thereafter. Thatīs not fine, but shit happens sometimes and there are really bigger problems in the world.
What makes me feel so actually "sad" is this part of your reply:
"But that said, I just wanted to say that some of the follow-up replies from you guys are not welcome here on futures.io (formerly BMT)"
...not welcome here on futures.io (formerly BMT)...i mean, who offended and who defended? Maybe itīs a native language problem, that iīve got it wrong, but who should calm down , josh or the people being adressed by him in an totally improper judgement being allegedly lazy and stubbern? (even no one has been adressed personally)
Itīs not anyone, who said, that, but you, the "ruler of the ring" the boss himself, who created the forum rules and being respected by everyone. This must have gone deep in the ass of the people, who doesnīt post anymore.
Iīm very sure, that was never your intention and yes, maybe iīve got it wrong. But if i got it wrong, maybe other could got it wrong, too.
Thatīs the situation. I donīt have a solution. I couldnīt go on posting as normal without naming that. I donīt want to offend anyone. I just hope, that my "2 cents" help to clear up the situation, why people are wondering, that that thread isnīt breathing anymore.

Waiting, Discipline and Patience Pays!
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  #34 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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tturner86 View Post
Having survived the scalping battles of ol '14, it was a matter of time that we wade through the aftermath.

Personally I love @Fritzk, @josh, and @Silvester17 they are all great guys.

But I have also noticed that if someone offers a different opinion, some users take offense, or even take it very personally. I have been taught throughout life that if someone says something to you and it offends you, there is a reason on the inside that you are offended. They have hit a nerve with you. The best thing to do is to look inside and figure out why you were offended.

The issue I see is that people have tied their egos to their trading or their method. SO if either don't work out well they feel like they have personally failed. You cannot do that, because it will never end well. Only once I removed my self worth from my trading was I able to take an objective view of it.

Unfortunately, I think that egos get involved on all sides when anyone is criticizing anyone else. It is important to walk softly and with consideration, and with an awareness that one's own ego is inevitably involved, whether receiving or delivering the critique.

Things get out of hand very easily, when there is no face-to-face communication, where a tone of voice or an expression can be read and quickly understood and responded to.

So, while I think Terry is basically right about leaving your ego out of your trading, it does get mixed up with any communication on the faceless internet, going in either direction. So we need to step back and let these things deescalate.

Bob.

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  #35 (permalink)
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pipandrun View Post
I assume, that josh had hopefully good intentions, but it apparently appeared very, very different to the other guys. But they could help themselves as to be seen in the posts thereafter. Thatīs not fine, but shit happens sometimes and there are really bigger problems in the world.
What makes me feel so actually "sad" is this part of your reply:
"But that said, I just wanted to say that some of the follow-up replies from you guys are not welcome here on futures.io (formerly BMT)"
...not welcome here on futures.io (formerly BMT)...i mean, who offended and who defended? Maybe itīs a native language problem, that iīve got it wrong, but who should calm down , josh or the people being adressed by him in an totally improper judgement being allegedly lazy and stubbern? (even no one has been adressed personally)
Itīs not anyone, who said, that, but you, the "ruler of the ring" the boss himself, who created the forum rules and being respected by everyone. This must have gone deep in the ass of the people, who doesnīt post anymore.
Iīm very sure, that was never your intention and yes, maybe iīve got it wrong. But if i got it wrong, maybe other could got it wrong, too.
Thatīs the situation. I donīt have a solution. I couldnīt go on posting as normal without naming that. I donīt want to offend anyone. I just hope, that my "2 cents" help to clear up the situation, why people are wondering, that that thread isnīt breathing anymore.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I don't really understand.

You said the part of my reply that was most offensive was where I said the follow-up responses where upsetting to me.

From my point of view, @josh made an error with his off handed remark (first sentence of his post), which I addressed in my reply. But like I also said, I believe you have to really try and look at his participation on futures.io (formerly BMT) as a whole and not judge him for one sentence of one post.

But when I read some of the follow-ups, it's just people piling on with negativity. All because @josh said that trendlines don't move the market?

At the core of the issue is people's emotional involvement with their trading philosophy, which has been brought up by others here.

I have been emotionally involved with my trading methods as well. And I've changed them drastically over the last many years, to what I believe is a continuing evolution of my understanding of the market. What I believed in several years ago I have sense come to learn was utter crap. I try to pass on my experiences to others, and I happen to agree with what @josh said. But I also ended my reply with the comment that if you are making money, then don't let it bother you.

What I meant by that is the vast majority of traders fail, as in - lose money. And it is those that I am trying to help the most, because it is those that need the most help. So for anyone that is following any methodology and they are losing money, then they need to examine not just themselves (psychology) but also the method to see if the method itself makes sense or if it is even possible to execute on the method.

What I have learned with direct experience in my own trading is that you can have a flawed methodology yet still be a profitable trader. But it isn't easy, and it comes down to being good with your understanding of the market despite the method not because of the method.

People say I caused that thread to end, but I would like to consider for a moment that perhaps people re-evaluated their success with the method, and decided to not pursue it further?

And if I am wrong, and the method is in fact what best describes the market, then who cares what I say? Just keep trading it and keep making money.

Again thanks for your reply. I do believe the core issue is emotional attachment to ones trading beliefs.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

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  #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Sorry your thread is going off-topic. However, there are two issues.


Big Mike View Post
@Happy Rick,

Sorry your thread is going off-topic. However, there are two issues.

(a) It is better to use existing threads than create new duplicate threads for existing topics.

(b) The original thread has been viewed as "dying" or "coming to an end abruptly" because a few people are upset about some things that transpired.

I think the best way to deal with it is to confront it, so hopefully your thread will serve that purpose. However, when we are done, it is best this thread be closed and the original thread continue. I agree with the other poster that said the best way to bring life into the old thread is to bring life into the old thread (posting).

Mike

I stop posting that day also and I will tell you why. First of all I don't like to have conflict involved with trading its hard enough as it is to trade. I enjoyed that thread and the people I posted with they helped me a lot so I like to give back if I can. I started a new thread to trade the YM and other markets plus the ES at times. I can take the ES off if you think its causing a conflict. Maybe some of the people are like me they just won't say anything and hit the road and the thread is dead.

Reasons I didn't speak up on the last thread.
1. Its trendwaves thread if he wants to stop someone from posting I guess he could its not my place.
2. I don't want to get kicked out of futures.io (formerly BMT), I like it here and have learned a lot plus a $100.00 is $100.00. Why make you made if you agree with a poster.

(a) It is better to use existing threads than create new duplicate threads for existing topics.
Please explain why so I will understand.

(b) The original thread has been viewed as "dying" or "coming to an end abruptly" because a few people are upset about some things that transpired.
It did almost stop and a lot of people are gone. If I have a problem on this thread can't I stop it?

PS. Treat others the way you want to be treated we will all get along on any thread or any style of trading. God intended it that way!

 
  #37 (permalink)
Elite Member
Charlotte NC
 
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Unfortunately, I don't really understand.


Big Mike View Post
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I don't really understand.

You said the part of my reply that was most offensive was where I said the follow-up responses where upsetting to me.

From my point of view, @josh made an error with his off handed remark (first sentence of his post), which I addressed in my reply. But like I also said, I believe you have to really try and look at his participation on futures.io (formerly BMT) as a whole and not judge him for one sentence of one post.

But when I read some of the follow-ups, it's just people piling on with negativity. All because @josh said that trendlines don't move the market?

At the core of the issue is people's emotional involvement with their trading philosophy, which has been brought up by others here.

I have been emotionally involved with my trading methods as well. And I've changed them drastically over the last many years, to what I believe is a continuing evolution of my understanding of the market. What I believed in several years ago I have sense come to learn was utter crap. I try to pass on my experiences to others, and I happen to agree with what @josh said. But I also ended my reply with the comment that if you are making money, then don't let it bother you.

What I meant by that is the vast majority of traders fail, as in - lose money. And it is those that I am trying to help the most, because it is those that need the most help. So for anyone that is following any methodology and they are losing money, then they need to examine not just themselves (psychology) but also the method to see if the method itself makes sense or if it is even possible to execute on the method.

What I have learned with direct experience in my own trading is that you can have a flawed methodology yet still be a profitable trader. But it isn't easy, and it comes down to being good with your understanding of the market despite the method not because of the method.

People say I caused that thread to end, but I would like to consider for a moment that perhaps people re-evaluated their success with the method, and decided to not pursue it further?

And if I am wrong, and the method is in fact what best describes the market, then who cares what I say? Just keep trading it and keep making money.

Again thanks for your reply. I do believe the core issue is emotional attachment to ones trading beliefs.

Mike

Mike thanks for trying to sort this out and hearing all sides.

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  #38 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Arguments on who is right or wrong are not really productive.


bobwest View Post
I think this has the potential to get off topic very quickly, if people are going to take sides on who is right and who is wrong, and is already doing so.

Whatever was the cause of the diminished posting on the PATs thread, those who like it can do so, and those who think it's not a good way to go do not have to.

Arguments on who is right or wrong are not really productive.

Speaking just for myself, I like the discipline of marking the trendlines and channels on a minimal chart, and use price action as a component of decision-making. For that, and not because I exactly follow Mack, I have enjoyed and benefited from the Mack-style posting and have been sorry to see it go.

I am with @Happy Rick in supporting this type of posting; I just would prefer to see the older thread revive. I'll put up an early-morning chart there today to put my money where my mouth is. (Maybe here, too. )

Whichever way this shakes out, I would like to see these types of chart posts continue in some form or another.

Bob.

Thanks for your input and for always trying to put this back the way it was.

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  #39 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Sarasota FL
 
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Today I posted on the old PATs thread. @Malthus and @Noelgarc posted on the thread. Yesterday @lasecondababele posted on the thread, and has been doing so for a while.

My suggestion: not to let being upset by something that happened in the past, and that likely had a fair amount of mutual misunderstanding mixed up in it, stop everyone who likes this kind of chart work and trading from posting their work and sharing their ideas.

I will post at least something every day in that thread, even if I am the only one in the world who does, until it revives, with either new or old participants, or until I leave futures.io (formerly BMT) (as, no doubt, a multi-millionaire .)

Anyone else who likes this kind of thing is very welcome to join in.

I don't even trade on the short timeframes of PATs, nor use only Mack's method or his version of price action. But it has helped me, and I want to do something in return for anyone who also sees value in it.

See you there tomorrow.

Bob.

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  #40 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Thanks to Mike for dissecting the thread, having joined recently I could feel something ominous lurking beneath the surface but hand't had the time to go back and find out what it was.


tturner86 View Post
The issue I see is that people have tied their egos to their trading or their method.

This. Bang on.
Having fresh eyes to look at this, it seems this has all been blown out of proportion.
I'm learning a lot from all of the traders involved, independently from their propensity to divulge or welcome theories, independently from the personality behind the message.

If we're voting on this, I'd rather have the old thread resuscitated, simply for ease of access to previous material.
Hopefully it will be but a blip on a much longer thread.


bobwest View Post
I will post at least something every day in that thread, even if I am the only one in the world who does, until it revives, with either new or old participants, or until I leave futures.io (formerly BMT) (as, no doubt, a multi-millionaire .)

This. Too.

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