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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?
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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?

  #81 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Accepted ;-)


Massive l View Post
@choke35 - my apologies with how I've come off.

I just can't believe people don't mind liars. That's crazy to me...

No prob.
I think, we agree that it is often hard to find out if the web counterpart is who (s)he pretends to be.
Finding out is at least a time-consuming process; and esp less experienced traders are "ideal" prey for pretenders and false gurus.

In that sense, I also loathe liars. But I'm no strong believer in protecting trader fellows from (bad) experiences by imposing tons of rules on the community.

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  #82 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
New poll.



I am talking about sim traders that post charts or posts/threads in a way that they pretend to be trading cash, like trading 10 lots at a time and making "calls" over and over etc etc, but that are instead on sim.

Should these traders be allowed to continue posting on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Should they be banned?

If you've been a member of the forum for any length of time then you should know that I strongly encourage people to create journals to help them become better traders. But some threads have stopped being about learning and instead become some sort of "showing off" thing where a small number of traders routinely post charts as if they are making big trades on cash, when they are really on sim.

For anyone that believes that sim is the same as cash, obviously I strongly disagree as does everyone I can possibly think of and respect.

So the issue here is what it does to the more rookie traders that fall for those posts, thinking it is "real" when it is not. Those of us that have been around a while can see the BS from far away, but the newer traders can't. They may waste weeks, months, or even years trying to follow someone who seems to be a profitable trader, when in fact they are just on sim and are a huge BS'er.

Thoughts?

Mike

Up until recently, I would've said certainly, let them post their fantasies...
We all have to start somewhere right?

But I have had a change of mind on this position, isn't that what us traders do, admit when we're wrong?

There is a lot of posturing and inexperienced drivel that is put out there in some of these posts by the Sim guy's.

Do I believe you should ban them completely? No, but there should be an entry bar, we all trade SIM to try ideas, and that's one thing. But if you have an entry bar, like proof of a funded account somewhere, sure then let them trade SIM and post so they can obtain feed back.

But truly, this is not a site for non-traders or pretenders, our screen time is too valuable to be eaten up with non-sense.

Respectfully,

Joe

In alcohol's defense, I've done some pretty dumb shit while completely sober too.
 
  #83 (permalink)
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Massive l View Post
It seems the majority don't mind fake online traders, and honestly, that doesn't surprise me.
Does the majority prefer to dream, rather than achieve real success?

You're currently reading the question the wrong way around - the majority of 68% (No) are against the fakes and the huckster rock-stars. I'm still amazed that 38% (yes) are for it though. Maybe a lot of people read it wrong, or are just good wind-up merchants.

Travel Well
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  #84 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
New poll.



I am talking about sim traders that post charts or posts/threads in a way that they pretend to be trading cash, like trading 10 lots at a time and making "calls" over and over etc etc, but that are instead on sim.

Should these traders be allowed to continue posting on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Should they be banned?

If you've been a member of the forum for any length of time then you should know that I strongly encourage people to create journals to help them become better traders. But some threads have stopped being about learning and instead become some sort of "showing off" thing where a small number of traders routinely post charts as if they are making big trades on cash, when they are really on sim.

For anyone that believes that sim is the same as cash, obviously I strongly disagree as does everyone I can possibly think of and respect.

So the issue here is what it does to the more rookie traders that fall for those posts, thinking it is "real" when it is not. Those of us that have been around a while can see the BS from far away, but the newer traders can't. They may waste weeks, months, or even years trying to follow someone who seems to be a profitable trader, when in fact they are just on sim and are a huge BS'er.

Thoughts?

Mike

Absolutely something should be done Big Mike.(Not for debating any sweeping sim vs. non-sim "rule"; only on the issue of pretending tgtbt sim results as cash ; as journals just begun don't really fit in this; but seeing journals going on over six months or year(s) with (almost) no losers and just wins without fail usually with no platform trade marks, then some hint at outside links maybe youtube or another site, then it gets annoying.) I don't think it quite warrants immediate banning. But maybe just warnings or closed/locked threads after repeated warnings/complaints then temp-ban/ban if ignored. Yes, those who've been around longer than two or three years at least, have probably seen too-good-to-be-true journals or results. There was even some results posted using volume profile, then links to another site. Like hitting home runs out of the "ballpark" so many days. After subscribing to the site, it was found the results of said poster on futures.io (formerly BMT) was far far less impressive than those originally posted on futures.io (formerly BMT) on so many days. Definitely gives the wrong impression to newbies that trading is "so easy" or "with the right way & experience" when the posted results by the individual "showing off" were sim/fake to begin with. And to those continuing on the journey, may add to frustration. If the results were so good, they'd be working at GS,JPM, topstep or a hedge fund already. And.. I think I have a notion of at least an example member you may likely be referring to with this poll question, but I'll just leave it at that.

At least many journalers do say they are on sim as appropriate especially with abnormal leverage used. I remember a journal on using max leverage on each shot, called the "odds of leverage" or something. Kind of a fun one.


Last edited by Cloudy; April 15th, 2014 at 08:21 AM.
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  #85 (permalink)
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ratfink View Post
I'm still amazed that 38% (yes) are for it though. Maybe a lot of people read it wrong, or are just good wind-up merchants.


Being against banning posters doesn't mean one is in favor of what they post.

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  #86 (permalink)
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let me restate in more simpler terms:


kronie View Post
as usual I am more cerebral than coloquial,

in the common mans language,

should a trader post on these open forums, that the world, literally the world (whether they're trader or not; whether they will ever contribute to the mind share or not; whether they are relevant to traders or not) that they had a +$200,000 USD day and here's the proof on the chart and the quantity of contracts and the time and the market traded?. Should same trader post that they had a -$83,246.37 day and here's the proof on the chart and the quantity of contracts and the time and the market traded?. I don't think so, as evidenced by the need for this thread. We know whom we're (all) talking about anyways...

after all, whom are we to demand that from others?, in that we hid behind monikers we choose, with avatars we select, and we participate on our own timeframes, when it suits us, and we respond to pm's and quotes when we have time if we want to?.

Wall Street long ago solved this equation by forming partnerships with legal entities and contracts and geographic physical location around the exchanges, whether in Boston (stock exchange), or the Pacific (stock exchanges in Los Angeles and San Francisco), or Chicago (CBOT, CME, etc.), or Kansas (City stock exchange, now defunct), or similar.

at this point, someone queue Patrick Stewart on the National Car Rental commercial:
National Car Rental 2013 Commercial - Project Manager - YouTube

You are a Business Pro, maestro of project management, barron of the buildout, you need a permit to be this awesome, and you rent from National. (queue music)


1) who are we? (as the character in Wall Street II demanded to know...)
who are we?...., that we should demand these (fraudsters, and outstanding traders - in their own minds) participant should post real monies earned and lost?

2) on Wall Street, in the hay days, guys would form partnerships and confess their sins to their Rabbi(s), Rebbies and Priests, all named their accountants and to no one else

that is essentially why the form of ownership of the exchanges were membership based, and purchasing a seat on the floor bought your membership into the most exclusive club short of printing money at the US Treasury.

that is why, not even the employees at those exclusive firms did not even have a clue of the real monies being earned, won and lost... not even the department heads in Accounting...

3) what does futures.io (formerly BMT) or any public thread offer in exchange for this priviledged knowledge?, a thank you on a post that gets lost amongst these flurries of comments and pages?

one very smart trader said, one should keep off these boards for that sole reason, that all you can get is some red lettering behind your moniker and a thank you on your posts...

4) these boards are open to anyone and everyone, especially since they can be shown up as results from any search engine, without membership on these threads..

so what does that mean?, I am shocked no one picked up on that. It means any lawyer, any detective, any agency (such as the IRS) can find out as much information on you personally (hiding behind a moniker is nothing), just like finding anything on social media.

so say you're in divorce proceedings, and you previously admitted to banging out 20 cars and making over +$200,000.00 on that trade, and here's the chart (with contract, date, time and market conditions -- essentially a legal document) to prove it. Now, how would you hide your assets (all puns intended) now?

5) I say, let them post and post away,

perhaps there are some insights that can be derived from their contributions....

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  #87 (permalink)
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futuretrader View Post
Being against banning posters doesn't mean one is in favor of what they post.

Fair comment, I focussed on the morality of the 'pretend' bit, but the 'allowed on' could also be taken as the main argument, in which case an ambivalent result seems reasonable. Charts or no charts is fine, trades or no trades is fine, sim or no sim is fine, winning trades or losing trades is fine, fake seems not fine but in the end I guess it's just life and the offside rule's usual ambiguity.

Travel Well
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  #88 (permalink)
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Great Thread

It seems hard to deal with the fake posters, unless you force them to show an actual account page. What about creating a thread that shows how to tell a fake poster using a sim account from a real trader. Or create a secure way of allowing elite members to prove their account to Mike and earn a special degree of trust that other traders can see and use when looking at posts.

I appreciate this discussion, as a newer member of the trading community I've wasted many hours on traders not worth following.

"When new money is created on a grand scale, it must go somewhere and have some major consequences. One of these will be greatly increased volatility and instability in the economy and financial system."
J. Anthony Boeckh
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  #89 (permalink)
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deltason View Post
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned or already exists, but perhaps there can be a designated location on the site (or a webinar, etc.) for newbies to get solid advice on spotting fakes and identifying various "tricks" pretenders use to gain 'rockstar status'. The same could apply to arming newby defenses against shady vendors.

I am only aware of one article I read about it. Other might know of more. But Dean Handley wrote an article about deceitful and dishonest trading rooms in futures magazine. You can search for it online. I think 95% or greater could not pass his test.

When I started I went to many trading rooms and read many threads to learn about day trading. And I tell you to find an honest one is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You have to request proof. Make them show you there trade logs. Or get a trial and see if they clearly show their trades entries stops and targets. Do they show the charts and / or DOM. In all my search I found only a couple I thought were honest. In fact I had some traders get angry at me when I asked for proof. My advice is when they get angry about showing proof don't walk away; run away.

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  #90 (permalink)
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This business is full of fakes trying to get your money. Ask lots of questions. Use google to do some research. If you can't find anything besides the website trying to get your money, run away, run away fast.


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