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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?
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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?

  #61 (permalink)
Elite Member
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I do concur that those who claim to be making X$ and are charge for their "services" should provide proof.

I always loved the Snake Oil salesman saying "But it's my personal financials - would you show your personal financials" - well my answer was ....

"Warren Buffet - can show his Billions to the world and Forbes Magazine/Worth can tell the world about how many Billions a person possesses - but you a futures/stock vendor/teacher cannot show me your account?"...haha


Steve

 
  #62 (permalink)
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wldman,

one reason why this might not work would be that this method would rule out all non Ninjatrader users from posting trades.

One idea could be to label all journal as "sim trading" in the beginning. Then there could be something like what was proposed with the certified trustworthy vendors - a certified trustworthy trading journal.
Which doesn't have to mean the creator is trading live or sim, but following a certain journal guideline.

Regards,
ABCTG


wldman View Post
@Big Mike

just make it mandatory that anyone wanting to post trades do it with that script that feeds a thread automatically. Everything not through that method WAS, not is, a possible trade set up...not an actual trade SIM or real. Once running on a chart or OE that is real time seamless and requires no effort and takes no time...really the simplest less invasive way to do it.

Someone explain why that won't work.

The "trades" posted on futures.io (formerly BMT) will drop perciptiously, but so will the bullshit. That seems very simple doesn't it?

Dan


 
  #63 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.probabletrades.com 
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I agree with the intentions of @Big Mike but like many have stated I think the execution of banning is difficult.

I think people like to brag about trades, fake, SIM or cash, for a myriad of psychological reasons. For me, when I was journaling, there was a want to be acceptance from the group. It was tempting to want to post entries of trades either I didn't take, or should have took, or took on SIM to get the rush of acceptance from other traders. It's similar to why people post "cool" things or misrepresent themselves on social networks: there is a psychological rush from getting a bunch of "Likes" from those around us. But I resisted that temptation because I realized the journal was for me, and the group aspect of it was more for my benefit than anybody else's. In the end I think, at the time, I was the only person that posted exact entries, fill, contract size, posted privacy-protected PDFs of statements, etc. mainly just to shush the haters but in the end it wasn't necessary.

Here's an idea. We currently have

- Journals
- Elite Journals

How about we create a new category of journals called

- Cash Verified Journals

This group of journals would have to comply with stricter set of guidelines that would allow Mike to be ban-happy, without punishing the other journals. Maybe some of the guidelines are
  1. All trades mentioned must be cash trades. But how to prove it? Here are some ideas, not sure I like all of these
    1. Submit a screenshot of your trades with the account number in it, or some part of your account number, other than "Sim101". This would vary by trading platform.
    2. When showing a chart, include fill arrows and position sizes.
    3. Give Mike or some moderator at futures.io (formerly BMT) you account login and password that they can use to verify your trades (yikes!)
    4. Send to Mike or some moderator at futures.io (formerly BMT) copies of your statements verifying your trades.
    5. Require posters to post copies of broker statements monthly. Journalers are allowed to didact any personal information like account number, name and address, etc.
    6. Any other ideas?
  2. Mike could require a higher level of membership (for more $$$) to access the cash journals. People that keep a cash verified journal for more than 90 days consistently can maybe get a rebate.

If the "verification" seems like too much work, then just call it "Cash Journals" and let Mike wield his power to ban or rubber-stamp the journaling going on in there.

In general, if you think you only want to follow journals that actually use cash, then that is the place for you. If you don't care if people are trading cash or SIM then use the other journals as-is. For newbie readers you can put a warning or disclaimer on the top of the journal educating readers that some posters may pretend to be posting real trades so buyer beware, kind of like what Craigslist does about how to avoid scams or fraudsters when buying something listed on Craigslist.


Last edited by shodson; April 13th, 2014 at 01:23 PM.
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  #64 (permalink)
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Love that..

@shodson

I, for one, will just stipulate in my "journal" or anywhere else that I posted a trade or trade set up that it is SIM...everything is SIM...even my ideas that I don't share. So I am a lying bastard, but the other way from typical. I will identify everything as make believe...my hallucinations and wild eyed hopes. SIM..everything SIM.

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  #65 (permalink)
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I believe journals are a form of accountability to the poster/trader himself. To me it makes no difference whether the journal is live or sim or both. It is all about the trader's handling of the trade itself - followed rules, kept emotions out of the decision-making process, etc. If the fear is a futures.io (formerly BMT) viewer will try to emulate a poster's journal in his live account because he likes the results, well shame on him for not doing any due diligence. One should assume all journals are sim unless explicitly stated it is a live cash journal. I really dislike the thought that journals have to be policed and results proven. I mean really!

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  #66 (permalink)
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vote to NOT allow demo/paper trading charts

I had not understood the question when voting. I do see the issue at this point. Paper trading is not real because of the Psychological impact. There is not a great deal of REALITY but I have not idea how that could be regulated. A chart is a chart. It is up to the honesty of those posting it that can be requested but not mandated. Hence the onus is always on the individual.
If anyone truly finds that holy grail, it will be lost among the thousands of strategies posted.

 
  #67 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I am talking about sim traders that post charts or posts/threads in a way that they pretend to be trading cash, like trading 10 lots at a time and making "calls" over and over etc etc, but that are instead on sim.

Should these traders be allowed to continue posting on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Should they be banned?

If you've been a member of the forum for any length of time then you should know that I strongly encourage people to create journals to help them become better traders. But some threads have stopped being about learning and instead become some sort of "showing off" thing where a small number of traders routinely post charts as if they are making big trades on cash, when they are really on sim.

For anyone that believes that sim is the same as cash, obviously I strongly disagree as does everyone I can possibly think of and respect.

So the issue here is what it does to the more rookie traders that fall for those posts, thinking it is "real" when it is not. Those of us that have been around a while can see the BS from far away, but the newer traders can't. They may waste weeks, months, or even years trying to follow someone who seems to be a profitable trader, when in fact they are just on sim and are a huge BS'er.

Thoughts?

Mike

Just want to throw my hat into the ring. I haven't used Sim in over a year and a half and I think it is silly for people to fake trades. There is a lot of bravado in the trading community and some people fall victim to the validation they get from calling tops and 'being right'. With that said, I think forcing people to define whether they are on Sim or not will have unintended negative consequences for newer futures.io (formerly BMT) users. Instead of practicing on a Sim, users will be keen to prove themselves and trade real capital prior to actually becoming familiar with a trading strategy.

I feel like if you are trading your strategy, it isn't necessary to have a full disclosure. On the flipside though, one thing I cannot tolerate is people who trade differently on Sim. That should require disclosure. There is nothing to learn about trading 10-lots on the sim if you can only afford 1 ct in real life. That type of journal is counterproductive in every sense of the word...

Journals are for members to reflect on their trades, not to validate their experiences to other members. As much as I encourage people to trade via Sim, I'd be lying if I said I would be as interested in a Sim Journal as I would be in a Live Journal. Anyone who has the patience to have a Sim Journal will be subjected to less overall feedback and responses in their journal at a time when they need feedback the most.

One final thing I want to mention is that the reason why many people look down on Sim trading is because there is little/no emotional investment because there seems to be nothing at stake. However, we create an illusion that there is something at stake because money is involved without taking into account the context all the time. Someone who has over a million in the bank and trades 2-lots on CL a few times a week has little/no emotional investment compared to a trader with a $3,000 account using one contract of NQ to hopefully quit his day job.

I think that we should focus on eradicating users who approach trading in general from a braggadocious place (not just Sim), and not force members to disclose whether they are on a Sim or not.

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  #68 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
New poll.



I am talking about sim traders that post charts or posts/threads in a way that they pretend to be trading cash, like trading 10 lots at a time and making "calls" over and over etc etc, but that are instead on sim.

Should these traders be allowed to continue posting on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Should they be banned?

If you've been a member of the forum for any length of time then you should know that I strongly encourage people to create journals to help them become better traders. But some threads have stopped being about learning and instead become some sort of "showing off" thing where a small number of traders routinely post charts as if they are making big trades on cash, when they are really on sim.

For anyone that believes that sim is the same as cash, obviously I strongly disagree as does everyone I can possibly think of and respect.

So the issue here is what it does to the more rookie traders that fall for those posts, thinking it is "real" when it is not. Those of us that have been around a while can see the BS from far away, but the newer traders can't. They may waste weeks, months, or even years trying to follow someone who seems to be a profitable trader, when in fact they are just on sim and are a huge BS'er.

Thoughts?

Mike

Words cannot explain how much I detest phonies in the trading world looking for an ego stroke from online strangers. As you said, these people are easy to spot.

They end up steering unsuspecting noobs the wrong way without a lick of concern for the damage they may cause trying to make it all look so easy. The predominant theme is always talking winners, while sweeping losers under the rug. There's never any mention of legitimate trade management routines or psychological-related issues.

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  #69 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Whose ego?

In 2012, there was a nice comment by Brian Lund on Traderplanet about "finding out", that a (pretended, widely known) gap trading blogger wasn't trading at all.

Does It Matter If Your Mentor Is Trading?

First reaction: "I was aghast. I was incensed. I was angry and upset."
Second thought: "Oh, and I was able to trade gaps pretty damn good."

So, whose ego is involved when some complain about others trading sim or live? Whose ego is at stake when some concentrate on irrelevant factors for trading like other's notional wealth?

I don't care, if any author trades 1, 100 or 1000 contracts as well as about whether (s)he is only doing some intellectual masturbation. If his/her idea has a point, I try to learn from that.


Last edited by choke35; April 14th, 2014 at 08:53 AM.
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  #70 (permalink)
Membership Temporarily Revoked
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Progress


After all the posts made in this thread I think we are making progress because some of the posters quit doing it but now new threads are started in the Journal section that are not focused on journaling.

https://futures.io/trading-journals/31363-dctrade69-daily-context-journal.html
Here is a new one, it is not a journal so I think the best place for this is here: https://futures.io/commodities-futures-trading/

I wanted too mention this in the thread but Iam on the starters ignore list. This starters ignore list is like going back 50 years when you could not express yourself, like in Africa APARTHEID.

Bigmike you have too change the option to put people just on an ignore list just because the thread starters do not like your question. This is a forum so if you are not rude then I think no body can put you on an ignore list.

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