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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?
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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?

  #141 (permalink)
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Bosch777 View Post
Go back and read the posts again then you will see that you are the one missing the point.

Firstly, to think that you can somehow force people to honestly declare whether they are on sim or real is impossible for the purposes of this forum. The only way that can be done is for a full and proper trade audit to be carried out on the brokerage account and bank account. Secondly it dosent really matter a jot.

In the context of this forum it is really a thing of Nothing. Whoever would spend money on and product, indicator or system that appears on ANY website without first doing their own DD is crackers and dosent really mind if they loose money or not. Anyone with an ounce of sense who is considering engaging with any of these "products" would realise there is a good chance that the quoted results are not necessarily from real money trades REGARDLESS of what the vendor or website says. Oh ya and what about the vendors I see that are flogging this indi and that and when the purchaser open the box he see stuff that he didnt expect to see like stuff not painting or repainting? Or dudes flogging various types of get rich bars (oh you just hop on here and hop off there and book the profits!!!) but never a word about "same second" bars and the like?

If you saw some gee whizz set up or methodology posted here by someone, regardless of whatever guarantees you were given, would you go and run it on a real cash account without first simming it for an appropriate length of time? Dont think so..

This forum is meant to be an educational one so that being the case there are rakes of posts about guys getting burnt on this and that product. If you get burnt then you suck it up and learn from it. If you want to take it further with that vendor then work away, you wouldn't be the first!!

Yes we can bang on about striving to keep the integrity of the site as strong as possible, and we should, but at the end of the day it is CAVEAT EMPTOR and you know it. Or at least you should..!

Perhaps a better wording for the poll would be "should vendors and journal posters who pretend........................"

Right, I'm the fool.

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  #142 (permalink)
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Thanks Bob...


bobwest View Post
There's a lot in @wldman 's post, but this part of it gets to the heart of the matter. Some things are just too good to be true.

It seems to me that there are about 3 things that a person can show on a chart they post:

1. General trade ideas, or hypothetical trades, or "trades I saw but didn't take," or "trades I see now," or possible setups, or discussion ideas, etc. Any sort of opportunity not taken.
2. Sim trades where they actually clicked the button.
3. Live trades where they actually clicked the button.

There's nothing wrong with any of these, if labeled for what they are, and if the labeling is true.

The problem is validation. @wldman 's point that many posts simply cannot be real is important. Many can't even be real sim trades .

But:
a.) No one is going to supply anyone with their broker account statements; and if they said they were, I would doubt that they were real.

b.) @wldman and @shodson have suggested posting a screenshot showing the trades with only a partial account number showing (something that doesn't start with "Sim....") I'm not a graphics guy, but I believe that it wouldn't take long for someone (just about anyone, with the tools that are out there today) to figure out how to edit that screenshot to show anything they wanted it to.

There is a statement on the main page of futures.io (formerly BMT), under the chatbox:


Discussion thread is here: https://futures.io/feedback-announcements/19852-rules-calling-trade-ideas-chatbox.html Exactly the same issues are raised in support of that rule as have been raised in this thread. Violators face deletion of their posts.

I have noticed that very few trades are posted in the chatbox; I have been on chat sites where absolutely amazing trades are claimed all the time. Hmmm.

I know that @Big Mike does not want to make any more changes to the present version of futures.io (formerly BMT), but a similar statement appearing on every journal post would put people on notice and would make enforcement simple: they either identify what they are doing or the post is deleted, and the reason is given. Most people would probably follow the rule without being bashed, once it's stated, and the level of posting -- and of understanding of what is posted -- would go up.

There would still be the problem of BS "trades" that really are suspect because they are just too good. But this would only apply to claims of live trades, and could be addressed on a case-by-case basis as exceptions, not as something that requires a lot of moderator effort or attention.

Bob.

I did not simply suggest posting authentic information...I did it. Mostly to demonstrate how easy it is to dramatically increase the likely validity of the information. Could some sick person STILL doctor that to make themselves appear a certain way, sure....but it would take significant considerable effort.

Dan

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  #143 (permalink)
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Question.


Do threads and their content eventually revert to the mean?

Seems like they might, so I'll say that I bought this one at the high and rode it hard selling at the top just before the crater reversal...and because I said it it must be true.

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  #144 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
Right, I'm the fool.



I'd doubt that...!! LOLLL

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  #145 (permalink)
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Rachel View Post
Hi,

Just want to say, if you see someone post a trade live, DO NOT FOLLOW them and put a live trade on.
That person could be using futures.io (formerly BMT) to sell their contracts to you.
BUYER beware.
Learn for yourself, to trade your own way.
You can get an idea from someone and test it out for yourself but don't be foolish and trade live with them, they could be using you to sell their contracts to you.
Learn their system, take stats and if it works, then you can trade live then.
If you come to futures.io (formerly BMT), thinking you can find a trader and you can follow their trades and make money, that is lazy and foolish.
This is the internet and it is trading, it is the wild wild west and people take advantage of others, plain and simple.
I have been there, if someone posts they are in a trade, just watch and observe and if you like their trading style, LEARN how they trade and do your homework and stats and then you trade your set ups.

Sorry, if I am a bit blunt but I have been trading for a long time and just had to speak up.
You have to do the work.

Wishing you the best,
Rachel

Well said @Rachel,
Sim or live doesn't really matter as I see it, just use your head and not blindly follow along with the trades that get posted. Examine the methodology put forth and see if it works for you or not.

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  #146 (permalink)
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Spot on, and if you read between the lines I suspect this may be close to the reason BigMike created this thread. ie: The integrity and reputation of the forum.

Im sure 90% of futures.io (formerly BMT) users will agree that there is something unique and special about this forum. There are countless other trading forums out there which are filled to the brim with negativity and BS'ing. Every second user claiming to be an expert and hardly any learning going on because everyone is more interested in proving how great they are.

If I was brand new to trading and I came to futures.io (formerly BMT) today, I have no doubt I would immediately be attracted to the very journals being spoken about in this thread. Why? Because it looks so easy. These guys are plotting a few trendlines, circling all the "actual trades" they have taken and clearly making a bucket load of cash every single day. Wow, i've just found the one place where the world's best traders hang out!

But for anyone who actually trades knows, a few typical traits of top traders discretionary traders are:
- humility
- 50 - 60% win rate (As quoted by several prop firm owners)
- A massive focus on psychology (so much so that top prop firms have trading psychologists on staff)

But in some of these journals the win rates are clearly above 80% (lol, yeah right good luck with that), and there is very little if any focus on anything other than posting perfectly marked up charts, after the fact.

This hurts the reputation of futures.io (formerly BMT) and wastes new traders time. It truly is amazing at how so many people are more attracted to following a guru and then acting like they too have become a guru,...instead of focusing on their weaknesses and learning to be a better trader.

Show your losing trades! Dig into your weaknesses! Put in the hard work that is required! Stop insulting the rest of us by acting as if this is easy. I challenge anyone to post your analysis ahead of time,...and forget about these after the fact perfect charts.


@DarkPoolTrading I could not have said it better myself.

I read a poster commenting that this was a public forum and traders should be allowed to post what they want. First I think of public as Government tax paid for and this forum as a private member subscribed (Elite section) forum. And @BigMike can and should set high standards regarding postings.

As @DarkPoolTrading said I have been to the other sites where traders just make up trades in order to get you to subscribe to the their trading room. @BigMike has done a lot to implement higher standards than some of the other trading sites and I hope he continues to do so. I want to be able to come to this site and not read the BS.

Also I keep reading posters talking about traders not being allowed to trade in Sim or even circle trades in hindsight. In my mind this is not the issue. The issue is about being honest about your trading. Not pretending to make live trades that were made in sim or circle a bunch of trades in hindsight and acting like this is what they traded live.

These phony journals do not read like a personal journal to help oneself become a successful trader, but read like someone trying to run a scam; at least to me. It is kind of like the fellow who said I know pornography when I see it. Well I know a faked journal when I read it.

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  #147 (permalink)
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blown accounts are a fact ... not fictitious

@wldman -- Note the quote of mine was inaccurate on your part. I said, "For most of us, a blown account is the ONLY way to learn." I am stating a fact. Learning to trade costs money if for no other reason than it is a money game.
Have you blown an account? If not, you are one of the few.
Ken


wldman View Post
the ONLY way to learn is from a blown account. Crazy talk.


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  #148 (permalink)
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Oh Stop...


COTtrader View Post
How can one post live money trades in a trading journal without being suspected of promoting themsellves?
Should we post a disclaimer? Newby or not, sim, real money or not, time to grow up and accept the risk if one wants to play the game. No hand holding here. Any newby with a trading account has chosen to accept the risk. For most of us, a blown account is the ONLY way to learn.
Ken

@COTtrader

You have two grand generalizations within a 13 word statement. Who is the group "most of us"? Since you are responding to me, does that mean that "us" is you and me? No, I reasonably believe that you meant futures.io (formerly BMT) members in general. So, I call "crazy talk" as there is no way that you can make that statement based on anything but your opinion. How would you have any idea, less a way to measure the current and past trading account results of the 50,000+ futures.io (formerly BMT) members. You'd need to know that half plus one had first blown an account and then, you'd have to have a way to know that doing so was the ONLY way that they have learned...that's crazy man. When considering those 25,000 plus accounts that have been blown up shoule the initial deposit count for anything? How much is required to count as a viable trading account?

That first part is reasonable compared to the second stated element. You even put ONLY in caps. The ONLY way? That is beyond ridiculous. Just as a construct premise, the statement demands that everyone that has blown an account knew absoultly nothing prior to making their first trade....that simply CANT be true.

What does blow an account even mean? Have I sailed well past zero, gone debit and had to liquidate personal asset to get back to zero? Yes, I have done that. A money game? I shudder to even mention how many commas come before the decimal...so don't get too bold with the way you make accusation or seek to establish yourself in front of others.

The inclusion in your statement of "most" and "ONLY" are harbingers that I can't ignore and ones that you should be aware of. I stand by the statement with no misgiving and no misunderstanding. "The ONLY way to learn is from a blown account" is crazy talk.

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  #149 (permalink)
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Some of the difficulty in the discussion in this thread is that the time frames used in the trading are not considered.

I do not do intraday trading of any stripe. But have occasionally used level 2 charts for timing an entry into or exit from swing stock play when I want to maximize my earnings....the last thing on my mind during this time is...wow I must detail this event before it happens in my journal. I am tunnel visioned on that chart looking for a movement in price that may or may not occur.

In long term trading where a few cents here or there are pretty well meaningless, then it is not hard to work through thoughts in my journal in detail, show how I arrive at a decision and then announce the action I will take and then in the following days see how well that analysis/prediction worked or failed. Using history to point out patterns that support your current views is instructive this way.

I think it is impossible to predict ahead of time what you will do in an intraday trade. Anything can happen within a day on a 5min or less time interval.

Journals that simply document wins and losses have very little instructional value to others and are suspicious to me...if they are documenting a decision process that is another thing and simulations are fine for that purpose as long as they are not cherry picked incidents

In my opinion, for non-intraday trading, you can simulate your decision making abilities using real data rather than historical. The simulations come in the form of giving yourself monopoly money and from this phantom investment set up a phantom portfolio through real decisions based on current data. Then we can see the success or failure of the approach .

As I said, in longer term stock trading and I suppose options (don't do those either) this works well....short term intraday trading...it is hard to do due to the stress of this type of trading.

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  #150 (permalink)
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COTtrader View Post
@wldman -- Note the quote of mine was inaccurate on your part. I said, "For most of us, a blown account is the ONLY way to learn." I am stating a fact. Learning to trade costs money if for no other reason than it is a money game.
Have you blown an account? If not, you are one of the few.
Ken

Far from a fact, I have heard this story told on here many times. Someone blows through hundred thousand dollar account then all of sudden the person started making profitable trades. The psychological damage would be hard to overcome. Think about this, It is in the best interest of the brokers and vendors for someone to jump straight to live account and fund the account.

Can someone only learn from blowing through account. Maybe. but the real winners are the brokers and vendors. I heard this advice on here too "Don't waste time on sim or paper, real funded account is the only way to learn." For me personally that would be the worst advice I could have ever received. I traded options through the 2008-09 financial crisis and I was paper trading a strategy for 8 months that I thought was foolproof. Wrong Glad it was paper/simulation mode. I learn that for my style of trading the less commission intensive strategy and the simplest is the most profitable.

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