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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?
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Should sim traders who pretend to trade cash be allowed on BMT?

  #131 (permalink)
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what happened

If it doesn't say what happened (all of it, plus and minus), how it felt (laughed, smiled, cried or hit something) and maybe a stab at why it might have been so, then as far as I'm concerned it isn't a journal, it's a thread. I'm not even that interested in fancy charts with execution markers or similar - because they damn well aren't there on the chart when we're looking at the right hand edge.

Threads are where we learn about stuff, journals are where we learn about ourselves.

Travel Well

Last edited by ratfink; April 18th, 2014 at 06:32 PM.
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  #132 (permalink)
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How can one post live money trades in a trading journal without being suspected of promoting themsellves?
Should we post a disclaimer? Newby or not, sim, real money or not, time to grow up and accept the risk if one wants to play the game. No hand holding here. Any newby with a trading account has chosen to accept the risk. For most of us, a blown account is the ONLY way to learn.
Ken

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  #133 (permalink)
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I agree with you about keeping the integrity of the site at the highest level.

But we should keep this concept in mind.

There may be a trading genius out there who simply has no money and for what ever reason, leaves his
PnL, shall we say, ambiguous.

If he / she has come across a pattern or concept that appears to work most of the time after the fact ,
we would be foolish not to try to incorporate the idea in our trading during the fact

For the record, I did vote with the majority in the poll, not to allow such behavior. That being said, I am also
concerned about missing out on ideas, just because a player is poor at this point in their career.

The key for me is to be constantly learning and absorbing.

Mike has a tough decision on this one.




DarkPoolTrading View Post
Spot on, and if you read between the lines I suspect this may be close to the reason BigMike created this thread. ie: The integrity and reputation of the forum.

Im sure 90% of futures.io (formerly BMT) users will agree that there is something unique and special about this forum. There are countless other trading forums out there which are filled to the brim with negativity and BS'ing. Every second user claiming to be an expert and hardly any learning going on because everyone is more interested in proving how great they are.

If I was brand new to trading and I came to futures.io (formerly BMT) today, I have no doubt I would immediately be attracted to the very journals being spoken about in this thread. Why? Because it looks so easy. These guys are plotting a few trendlines, circling all the "actual trades" they have taken and clearly making a bucket load of cash every single day. Wow, i've just found the one place where the world's best traders hang out!

But for anyone who actually trades knows, a few typical traits of top traders discretionary traders are:
- humility
- 50 - 60% win rate (As quoted by several prop firm owners)
- A massive focus on psychology (so much so that top prop firms have trading psychologists on staff)

But in some of these journals the win rates are clearly above 80% (lol, yeah right good luck with that), and there is very little if any focus on anything other than posting perfectly marked up charts, after the fact.

This hurts the reputation of futures.io (formerly BMT) and wastes new traders time. It truly is amazing at how so many people are more attracted to following a guru and then acting like they too have become a guru,...instead of focusing on their weaknesses and learning to be a better trader.

Show your losing trades! Dig into your weaknesses! Put in the hard work that is required! Stop insulting the rest of us by acting as if this is easy. I challenge anyone to post your analysis ahead of time,...and forget about these after the fact perfect charts.



AJ
Nashville, Tennessee


"Life On The Edge of SR"
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  #134 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
You are missing the point. Not ban SIM...ban any intentional continuous misrepresentation. OR Require a simple step to be included with any trade claim. That is basic and simple.

Go back and read the posts again then you will see that you are the one missing the point.

Firstly, to think that you can somehow force people to honestly declare whether they are on sim or real is impossible for the purposes of this forum. The only way that can be done is for a full and proper trade audit to be carried out on the brokerage account and bank account. Secondly it dosent really matter a jot.

In the context of this forum it is really a thing of Nothing. Whoever would spend money on and product, indicator or system that appears on ANY website without first doing their own DD is crackers and dosent really mind if they loose money or not. Anyone with an ounce of sense who is considering engaging with any of these "products" would realise there is a good chance that the quoted results are not necessarily from real money trades REGARDLESS of what the vendor or website says. Oh ya and what about the vendors I see that are flogging this indi and that and when the purchaser open the box he see stuff that he didnt expect to see like stuff not painting or repainting? Or dudes flogging various types of get rich bars (oh you just hop on here and hop off there and book the profits!!!) but never a word about "same second" bars and the like?

If you saw some gee whizz set up or methodology posted here by someone, regardless of whatever guarantees you were given, would you go and run it on a real cash account without first simming it for an appropriate length of time? Dont think so..

This forum is meant to be an educational one so that being the case there are rakes of posts about guys getting burnt on this and that product. If you get burnt then you suck it up and learn from it. If you want to take it further with that vendor then work away, you wouldn't be the first!!

Yes we can bang on about striving to keep the integrity of the site as strong as possible, and we should, but at the end of the day it is CAVEAT EMPTOR and you know it. Or at least you should..!

Perhaps a better wording for the poll would be "should vendors and journal posters who pretend........................"


Last edited by Bosch777; April 19th, 2014 at 08:07 AM.
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  #135 (permalink)
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tukhoai View Post
How can one tell whether any trade is sim? Almost anything can be doc'ed these days
Thanks in advance.

When you go over someones supposed 'results' in a thread trading CL, and it turns out they are averaging about 150+ ticks per day (trading with stops), everyday, rain or shine, for months on end, you know that it's not real. It's that simple. It's not even 'sim'. It's just hindsight make-believe.

I know some people will say ''just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's not possible!'' etc. lol. Such people are probably in for a shock when they eventually wake up.

Just think about the mathematics of it. Think about their apparent success rate. Think about how gigantic their 'edge' must be! Think about the potential scalability and the money that someone like that trading futures contracts should be making. And you think they're spending 8 hours per day on bikemikes trading forum posting charts marked up in MSPaint?!

Our common sense is sometimes clouded by our dreams.

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  #136 (permalink)
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subterfuge View Post

tukhoai View Post
How can one tell whether any trade is sim? Almost anything can be doc'ed these days
Thanks in advance.

When you go over someones supposed 'results' in a thread trading CL, and it turns out they are averaging about 150+ ticks per day (trading with stops), everyday, rain or shine, for months on end, you know that it's not real. It's that simple. It's not even 'sim'. It's just hindsight make-believe.

I know some people will say ''just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's not possible!'' etc. lol. Such people are probably in for a shock when they eventually wake up.

Just think about the mathematics of it. Think about their apparent success rate. Think about how gigantic their 'edge' must be! Think about the potential scalability and the money that someone like that trading futures contracts should be making. And you think they're spending 8 hours per day on bikemikes trading forum posting charts marked up in MSPaint?!

Our common sense is sometimes clouded by our dreams.

That's true to some extent, but still not proper way to go, because your judgement is not based on facts, just mere speculation, and common sense is just another form of illusion anyway, so ...



Last edited by Thxo; April 19th, 2014 at 12:29 PM.
 
  #137 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
When I see guys on futures.io (formerly BMT) consistently SMASH the results of the best traders in the world it exposes their naivete and their blatent bullshit.

There's a lot in @wldman 's post, but this part of it gets to the heart of the matter. Some things are just too good to be true.

It seems to me that there are about 3 things that a person can show on a chart they post:

1. General trade ideas, or hypothetical trades, or "trades I saw but didn't take," or "trades I see now," or possible setups, or discussion ideas, etc. Any sort of opportunity not taken.
2. Sim trades where they actually clicked the button.
3. Live trades where they actually clicked the button.

There's nothing wrong with any of these, if labeled for what they are, and if the labeling is true.

The problem is validation. @wldman 's point that many posts simply cannot be real is important. Many can't even be real sim trades .

But:
a.) No one is going to supply anyone with their broker account statements; and if they said they were, I would doubt that they were real.

b.) @wldman and @shodson have suggested posting a screenshot showing the trades with only a partial account number showing (something that doesn't start with "Sim....") I'm not a graphics guy, but I believe that it wouldn't take long for someone (just about anyone, with the tools that are out there today) to figure out how to edit that screenshot to show anything they wanted it to.

There is a statement on the main page of futures.io (formerly BMT), under the chatbox:

Quoting 
Guidelines for trade ideas in the chatbox: List entry, stop and target + "sim" or "cash".

Discussion thread is here: https://futures.io/feedback-announcements/19852-rules-calling-trade-ideas-chatbox.html Exactly the same issues are raised in support of that rule as have been raised in this thread. Violators face deletion of their posts.

I have noticed that very few trades are posted in the chatbox; I have been on chat sites where absolutely amazing trades are claimed all the time. Hmmm.

I know that @Big Mike does not want to make any more changes to the present version of futures.io (formerly BMT), but a similar statement appearing on every journal post would put people on notice and would make enforcement simple: they either identify what they are doing or the post is deleted, and the reason is given. Most people would probably follow the rule without being bashed, once it's stated, and the level of posting -- and of understanding of what is posted -- would go up.

There would still be the problem of BS "trades" that really are suspect because they are just too good. But this would only apply to claims of live trades, and could be addressed on a case-by-case basis as exceptions, not as something that requires a lot of moderator effort or attention.

Bob.

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  #138 (permalink)
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Thxo View Post
That's true to some extent, but still not proper way to go, because your judgement is not based on facts, just mere speculation, and common sense is just another form of illusion anyway, so ...


If you look closer at those threads you will see allot of members asking the same:
Can you turn on plot executions?

Response from them:
1. You are put on the starters ignore list OR
2. I only use NT for analyzing my executions are on another platform.

The problem with those threads is that in order to pick tops and bottoms, I bet you will see allot of losers before hitting that big winner!

It is just: camouflage the bad trades and show the good ones.

I think we do not need that here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

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  #139 (permalink)
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That is insane...


COTtrader View Post
How can one post live money trades in a trading journal without being suspected of promoting themsellves?
Should we post a disclaimer? Newby or not, sim, real money or not, time to grow up and accept the risk if one wants to play the game. No hand holding here. Any newby with a trading account has chosen to accept the risk. For most of us, a blown account is the ONLY way to learn.
Ken

the ONLY way to learn is from a blown account. Crazy talk.

 
  #140 (permalink)
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Right AJ...



tderrick View Post
I agree with you about keeping the integrity of the site at the highest level.

But we should keep this concept in mind.

There may be a trading genius out there who simply has no money and for what ever reason, leaves his
PnL, shall we say, ambiguous.

If he / she has come across a pattern or concept that appears to work most of the time after the fact ,
we would be foolish not to try to incorporate the idea in our trading during the fact

For the record, I did vote with the majority in the poll, not to allow such behavior. That being said, I am also
concerned about missing out on ideas, just because a player is poor at this point in their career.

The key for me is to be constantly learning and absorbing.

Mike has a tough decision on this one.

My personal experience is that most guys that are prolific and make a shit ton of money tend to keep their p/l ambigious or totally hidden. Folks who seek the limelight are a dramatic minority. Folks that seek the limelight with the consistent high level production to back it up are very few and far between.

Ultimately I don't think Mike changes much. We as participants should though strive to change the culture...imo of course.

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