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PROFESSIONAL or NON-PROFESSIONAL
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PROFESSIONAL or NON-PROFESSIONAL

  #11 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Quite reasonable, but I'm done with this horse.

I did post a list of CME criteria back in @michaelleemoore's thread, and it did include some of the criteria you mentioned. FWIW, you are an independent contractor with TST, not an employee.

Not that I think that is determinative. The wording is something like, "acting on behalf of....", which clearly makes your employment status not the point. Contractors will be included.

Here is the CME list I was using: https://futures.io/elite-trading-journals/38439-scalper-s-journey-828.html#post596004

Edit: just noticed that it's the same form as @grausch posted.... oops. But there's also an attempt to parse the meaning, which is a little different....

But here I am, beating this horse again.....

Last time, I promise....

Bob.


Last edited by bobwest; September 16th, 2016 at 11:14 AM.
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  #12 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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What are the questions as far as "pros"?

1) There is a pro definition as far as the CME and that is for data fees
2) There is a definition of a pro as far as as the SRO (NFA) is concerned.

These are totally different because one focused on data fees (CME) and one is concerned with you being licensed in the futures industry.

So are you guys trying to determine whether you need to pay pro fees for quotes and data or registered and being licensed?

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

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  #13 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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mattz View Post
What are the questions as far as "pros"?

Hi Matt,

My fault, I started it..doah.. I am due to give a talk to Latin finance students etc. about retail futures trading. I'm not going to sex it up too much, I'm actually worried about corrupting young minds with get rich quick ideas but some number may benefit.

My question was if someone already has a non-pro broker account and they get funded with TST, are they "pro" across the board and need to update their self-certification (or not) and pay pro fees on any data they get.

There seems to be ambiguity on whether when your trading you personal funds in a self-directed brokerage account will you lose access to the cheap data bundles. If someone's system has extra internals Tick & VIX, Eurex for reference etc, it could put a TST trader paying maybe $450 p/m which is too much for a new trader.

Thats basically it.

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  #14 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Rory View Post
Hi Matt,

My fault, I started it..doah.. I am due to give a talk to Latin finance students etc. about retail futures trading. I'm not going to sex it up too much, I'm actually worried about corrupting young minds with get rich quick ideas but some number may benefit.

My question was if someone already has a non-pro broker account and they get funded with TST, are they "pro" across the board and need to update their self-certification or not and pay pro fees on any data they get.

There seems to be ambiguity on whether when your trading you personal funds in a self-directed brokerage account will you loose access to the cheap data bundles. If someone's system has extra internals Tick & VIX, Eurex for reference etc, it could put a TST trader paying maybe $450 p/m which is too much for a new trader.

Thats basically it.

Understood. let me do some digging and consult with some guys. My answers should not be construe as legal advice because many areas are grey areas. I will try and answer it shortly.

Thanks,
Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #15 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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mattz View Post
Understood. let me do some digging and consult with some guys. My answers should not be construe as legal advice because many areas are grey areas. I will try and answer it shortly.

Thanks,
Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Cheers Matt,

It would affect very few in reality of course, just a few student (there are a few) who have small accounts already. Edit: a bunch of them won some business student trader competition thing I gather. It also crossed my mind to do a TST combine myself so as to explain it better but its messy for me. I might do the combine but not go funded of course.

Regards,
Rory

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  #16 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Rory View Post
Cheers Matt,

It would affect very few in reality of course, just a few student (there are a few) who have small accounts already. Edit: a bunch of them won some business student trader competition thing I gather. It also crossed my mind to do a TST combine myself so as to explain it better but its messy for me. I might do the combine but not go funded of course.

Regards,
Rory

Again, please consult with all concerned parties, and this is not legal advice, rather I am conveying my interpretation of the facts gathered.

The CME rule says that if you manage actual capital for anyone besides your own, you are considered a pro.
Especially when you share a potential for profit. Once you are a pro, you are one across all your accounts and you have to update your status with your FCM.

If you think to the contrary, please state your opinion based on rules and regs, not gut feel, intuition, etc.

Thank you,
Matt Zimberg
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #17 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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mattz View Post
Again, please consult with all concerned parties, and this is not legal advice, rather I am conveying my interpretation of the facts gathered.

The CME rule says that if you manage actual capital for anyone besides your own, you are considered a pro.
Especially when you share a potential for profit. Once you are a pro, you are one across all your accounts and you have to update your status with your FCM.

If you think to the contrary, please state your opinion based on rules and regs, not gut feel, intuition, etc.

Thank you,
Matt Zimberg
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Thanks. Clarification is good.

Bob.

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  #18 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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mattz View Post
The CME rule says that if you manage actual capital for anyone besides your own, you are considered a pro.
Especially when you share a potential for profit. Once you are a pro, you are one across all your accounts and you have to update your status with your FCM.

If you think to the contrary, please state your opinion based on rules and regs, not gut feel, intuition, etc.

Hi Matt

I understand the bit above. Just looking clarification on this sentence


Quoting 
Once you are a pro, you are one across all your accounts

Would you be able to point me to the CME rule that says that please?

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  #19 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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@xplorer

The CME states the following as part of its rules:
The Non-Professional Subscriber’s Use of Information must:

(f) be solely for the Subscriber’s personal or private use;
(g) be limited to managing the Subscriber’s own assets, and
not be used in connection with the management of any
assets of any third party(ies) in any capacity.

So we established that when you are allocated capital and trade for others, you are a Pro.

When it comes to applying this across all your accounts, is not something that I referenced within CME rule book.
Instead, I called data feed providers and consulted with those who apply it within the FCMs.
They told me that once you are a pro, they need to apply it across all accounts with your name.

There is logic to what they say because CME also says:

"Are Non-Professional Subscriber fees applicable,
if I meet some, but not all of the criteria?

No, all criteria must be met to qualify for the Non-Professional
Subscriber fees."

As you see I have tried to gather info from industry contacts and info that is available to me.

It very well may be that your FCM may apply a different policy. If you are given assets to manage, please call your FCM and ask them whether your personal funds account would fall under the Pro category. Maybe they can present a different perspective and approach to avoid Pro fees. I would be glad to know about it and learn further (not being sarcastic).

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.

Last edited by mattz; September 17th, 2016 at 10:00 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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mattz View Post
@xplorer

The CME states the following as part of its rules:
The Non-Professional Subscriber’s Use of Information must:

(f) be solely for the Subscriber’s personal or private use;
(g) be limited to managing the Subscriber’s own assets, and
not be used in connection with the management of any
assets of any third party(ies) in any capacity.

So we established that when you are allocated capital and trade for others, you are a Pro.

When it comes to applying this across all your accounts, is not something that I referenced within CME rule book.
Instead, I called data feed providers and consulted with those who apply it within the FCMs.
They told me that once you are a pro, they need to apply it across all accounts with your name.

There is logic to what they say because CME also says:

"Are Non-Professional Subscriber fees applicable,
if I meet some, but not all of the criteria?

No, all criteria must be met to qualify for the Non-Professional
Subscriber fees."

As you see I have tried to gather info from industry contacts and info that is available to me.

It very well may be that your FCM may apply a different policy. If you are given assets to manage, please call your FCM and ask them whether your personal funds account would fall under the Pro category. Maybe they can present a different perspective and approach to avoid Pro fees. I would be glad to know about it and learn further (not being sarcastic).

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Thanks Matt

I don't have a "dog in this fight" - it's just purely interest and professional curiosity.

When the CME says 'The Non-Professional Subscriber’s Use of Information must...', is there any room to interpret that sentence to mean that the use of information for the feed you are subscribing to is bound to those rules?

In other words, can we not have one subscription, which is bound by those rules (because it relates to a personal account), and have another, separate, subscription for which the Use of Information would force the subscriber to be classed as Pro?

I understand that standard practice for the data feed providers you surveyed says otherwise. I am just exploring with you the possibility of giving the wording of the CME rules a different interpretation.

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