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Trade Well, or be Homeless
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Trade Well, or be Homeless

  #21 (permalink)
Site Administrator
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For those that are struggling, here is a good thread:

https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/26691-time-give-up.html

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  #22 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
portland me usa
 
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I can't imagine that scenario working out well for anyone. I tried something similar last year and the pressure was unbearable, so I had to stop for the sake of my sanity. Trading without a steady income was a completely different animal, for me at least. There is also no way I could make a living on a 50k account. Profitable at year end? Yeah, most likely. But a living? No way.

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  #23 (permalink)
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I am definitely not going to give up. This journey(even in the last few months) has drawn my away from indicators and towards PA and MP. My trading has gotten much more objective and I am closer to a global methodology than I ever have been. And I agree it would reckless to do with a family and no other source of income. @Big Mike thank you for the link. I'd seen it before but its a good reminder to review it. And it also puts back into focus all the things I need other things that I need to put work into to be successful in this business besides the 2-3 hours of trading a day. (I am currently spending 10 - 12 hours a day with all the aspects of my trading business.)

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  #24 (permalink)
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Two traders: one increases size after a loss; the other gets smaller. Both continue to lose. You can neither trade to not lose, nor can you trade as if the size of your loss does not matter. One may be caused by being under funded and the other may be caused by being over funded, but the result is the same. It still boils down to having effective skills and money management. If you don't know how to trade, it doesn't matter how well funded you are - its just a question of how long it will take until are finished trading.

Bottom line:

You have to be sufficiently capitalized to become successful trading, but being sufficiently capitalized does not guarantee success.

From Dr. Brett:

I believe the implicit learning perspective helps to explain why so few traders ultimately succeed at their craft. Quite simply, they cannot outlast their learning curves. If, indeed, it takes thousands of trials to generate successful implicit learning, a great number of traders would have been bankrupted by then. Many others might not survive that number of
trials simply due to the time and energy required. It is impossible to hold a full time job and generate the degree of immersion in the markets needed for implicit learning. On the other hand, it is impossible to obtain a full-time income from trading without developing the mastery conferred by years of experience. Part time traders never develop expertise for the same reason that part-time chess players or athletes are unlikely to succeed. For purely practical reasons associated with raising a family, making a living, etc., few people can undergo the “starvingartist” phase of skill-building.


.


Last edited by tigertrader; June 22nd, 2013 at 09:42 PM.
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  #25 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Two traders: one increases size after a loss; the other gets smaller. Both continue to lose. You can neither trade to not lose, nor can you trade as if the size of your loss does not matter. One may be caused by being under funded and the other may be caused by being over funded, but the result is the same. It still boils down to having effective skills and money management. If you don't know how to trade, it doesn't matter how well funded you are - its just a question of how long it will take until are finished trading.

Bottom line:

You have to be sufficiently capitalized to become successful trading, but being sufficiently capitalized does not guarantee success.

From Dr. Brett:

I believe the implicit learning perspective helps to explain why so few traders ultimately succeed at their craft. Quite simply, they cannot outlast their learning curves. If, indeed, it takes thousands of trials to generate successful implicit learning, a great number of traders would have been bankrupted by then. Many others might not survive that number of
trials simply due to the time and energy required. It is impossible to hold a full time job and generate the degree of immersion in the markets needed for implicit learning. On the other hand, it is impossible to obtain a full-time income from trading without developing the mastery conferred by years of experience. Part time traders never develop expertise for the same reason that part-time chess players or athletes are unlikely to succeed. For purely practical reasons associated with raising a family, making a living, etc., few people can undergo the “starvingartist” phase of skill-building.


.

Thank you for your comment and the quote.

I agree with what you and Dr Brett said 100%. Its been a steep learning curve ditching indicators and trading price action. Trying to assimilate all the little nuances of PA and learning MP has been very challenging. Its not something I could do with the amount of focus I have been able to devote to trading over the past few of months. But I believe I am in a place in my life where I can go this through the process and make the transition.

Addition -- If it does truly take years of full time experience then I will not make the curve. I'll have to pursue trading as a hobbyist in my spare time. I have a lot of respect for your experience in the industry and the wisdom you share on futures.io (formerly BMT). I also hope that you are trying to help me with the advice above.

Chris


Last edited by calitrader; June 23rd, 2013 at 12:22 AM. Reason: Amended my statement after rereading the end of the quote.
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  #26 (permalink)
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Great thread. I am lucky enough to have a steady job that is flexible where I can work from home most of the time, focus on trading during the market hours I need to, and manage my time to do both. While underpaid, my situation is that overall it's just enough to live contently, pay the bills, and over some time produce a small stake to trade with. I haven't moved on to bigger/better/higher paying jobs like my collegaues because of wanting to take advantage of the flexibility I have and focus on succeeding in trading. Thus far it's been 5 years trading haphazardly, and I have not put in the effort/work needed to succeed, and have also fallen behind on where I would like to be with my financial situation at this point in my life. But I am willing to put in the effort/work needed now and make it happen, even staying in my current situation for some time, as I feel in the long run the rewards and results in all aspects of my life will be worth it, and I fully intend to do so and put in the work needed to succeed.

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  #27 (permalink)
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Interesting topic. I think I can agree with both camps: you can't trade your way out of misery if you depend on your immediate results; however, having a strong need to perform and deliver can push you very far comparing to relaxed state when you treat trading as a way to pass time. If you are young and single it might be a good excersize as well. I think in any circumstance you need to have a cushion built for minimal expense living for at least 6 months, in a sutuation like that first thing to do you must minimize and reduce you expenses to bare minimum, including moving to cheaper location/hood/small flat, getting rid of cars or just leave small cheap one if you are not in a big city, getting rid of all these ipads with data plans, etc. You get the notion. But then you might actually do better than if money is not problem. You must only allow yourself any luxuries when you trading results support and fund it. You must start very small so you don't have a question what to do after a loser - go down or up, you trade minimal size until this question does not require any discussion. Then you can do great.

Alex Nekritin shares similar story in his book about tape reading, he followed this path.
Actually there is a great book from the guy who was a pit trader and moved onto to path of slacker and wagabond, first by circumnavigating the world with his wife on a catamaran and then travelled everywhere in old VW Kraft. He's living solely from trading on the road and his story might be interesting to many. Great read too. He has published two books: first about his sail and second about how to trade your way to the living on the beach. You can start with second and if you like his (impossible not to like him) you can read about his sail.

http://media.blubrry.com/thenewmanpodcast/p/www.thenewmanpodcast.com/audio/TNM131-NickOKelly.mp3

Live on the Margin

Creativity is a product of necessity.

Trade to live. Not live to trade.

Last edited by xelaar; June 27th, 2013 at 04:25 AM.
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  #28 (permalink)
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I think some will enjoy this one too http://www.liveonthemargin.com/Audio/1_Introduction.mp3

Trade to live. Not live to trade.
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  #29 (permalink)
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Futures Operator View Post
Thus far it's been 5 years trading haphazardly, and I have not put in the effort/work needed to succeed, and have also fallen behind on where I would like to be with my financial situation at this point in my life. But I am willing to put in the effort/work needed now and make it happen, even staying in my current situation for some time, as I feel in the long run the rewards and results in all aspects of my life will be worth it, and I fully intend to do so and put in the work needed to succeed.

Hi @Futures Operator have you made concrete
steps to reach your target, which are written down and can therefore be measured in the
future ?
Do those follow the SMART criterias Specific Measurable Accepted Realistic Timely

I see myself in a comparable situation, right now i am saving every cent to get enough money
to start a fulltime trading endeavour. I have done a written plan of small steps to reach this target.
And right now this keeps me motivated to focus on the small steps, which are necessary to reach my long term goal.

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  #30 (permalink)
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FB2012 View Post
Hi @Futures Operator have you made concrete
steps to reach your target, which are written down and can therefore be measured in the
future ?
Do those follow the SMART criterias Specific Measurable Accepted Realistic Timely

I see myself in a comparable situation, right now i am saving every cent to get enough money
to start a fulltime trading endeavour. I have done a written plan of small steps to reach this target.
And right now this keeps me motivated to focus on the small steps, which are necessary to reach my long term goal.

Thanks @FB2012, for this. I have done this, and they do follow the SMART concept in general, but they were not written with it specifically in mind, with a planned out small step roadmap for each target. I do like this idea and will implement it and track results more closely with the small steps goals/targets in mind.

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