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Who makes more money. Scalpers or Point Traders
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Who makes more money. Scalpers or Point Traders

  #71 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Itchymoku's Avatar
 
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Idk I'm 25. Looks like I have a long way to go competing with people twice my age

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  #72 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
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Platform: My own custom solution
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monpere View Post
If you are not trading Market profile on an hourly chart, and are not following the mandates of higher time frames as dictated by oh god @Big Mike, then you are a heretic. If you dare have a different approach then his highness then you should be subjugated.

I have written 22,817 posts on the forum, of which you have thanked 18 of them if my MySQL query is correct. So it is clear that you don't agree with most of what I say That's a ratio of 1267:1.

You have written 1,781 posts on the forum, of which I have thanked you 75 times (again, if my MySQL query is correct). That's a ratio of 23:1.

So it seems that neither one of us seems to like too many of the other persons posts, probably because we have such complete polar opposite views when it comes to trading.

That said, I have always respected you which I have demonstrated by asking you to be a presenter (twice, if I recall, both times you declined), and always thanking you when you share your code contributions with the community.


Quoting 
my time on the site is at its end.

Overall, you've received 2,349 thanks on the site - 1.3 thanks received for every post you make. So it seems clear that many people in the community value your posts. Because of that fact alone, I value your posts as well, even if I disagree with many of them.

It's a diverse community. On top of that, we are traders, which means in general we have big egos and aren't the easiest people to get along with. But the whole point of the community is to share and discuss different opinions to help each other improve their trading.

Hopefully you will reconsider your decision to leave the community. I for one would like to see you stay.

Have a good weekend,

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
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Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

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  #73 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
los angeles
 
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Itchymoku View Post
Idk I'm 25. Looks like I have a long way to go competing with people twice my age

I am starting to take Geritol....get a early start.

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  #74 (permalink)
Elite Member
Indianapolis, IN USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader TOS Custom
Broker/Data: Several
Favorite Futures: ES CL ZB
 
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Big Mike View Post
I have written 22,817 posts on the forum, of which you have thanked 18 of them if my MySQL query is correct. So it is clear that you don't agree with most of what I say That's a ratio of 1267:1.

You have written 1,781 posts on the forum, of which I have thanked you 75 times (again, if my MySQL query is correct). That's a ratio of 23:1.

So it seems that neither one of us seems to like too many of the other persons posts, probably because we have such complete polar opposite views when it comes to trading.

That said, I have always respected you which I have demonstrated by asking you to be a presenter (twice, if I recall, both times you declined), and always thanking you when you share your code contributions with the community.



Overall, you've received 2,349 thanks on the site - 1.3 thanks received for every post you make. So it seems clear that many people in the community value your posts. Because of that fact alone, I value your posts as well, even if I disagree with many of them.

It's a diverse community. On top of that, we are traders, which means in general we have big egos and aren't the easiest people to get along with. But the whole point of the community is to share and discuss different opinions to help each other improve their trading.

Hopefully you will reconsider your decision to leave the community. I for one would like to see you stay.

Have a good weekend,

Mike

@monpere and @Big Mike have both put great information into countless posts over the years - and I've been here a long time - and read most of them. @monpere is frustrating sometimes because he gives great information, but never quite discloses what he's doing - his choice and I respect it. @Big Mike runs a great forum that creates tremendous value. In fact, I'd say the elite membership is one of the single best investments anyone could make to learn about trading. Personally, I completely disagree with the way @Big Mike suggests to trade - longer time frames, fluid stops, scaling into the market, emphasizing market profile, suggesting that indicators are "not useful or bad", prioritizing discretion in lieu of a rules-based approach, etc. I think he was wrong to drop NinjaTrader and use Multicharts then Sierra Charts. (Of course, I think Ninja is superior - more selfishly, when @Big Mike moved away from Ninja, so did many of the forum members - and several of the Ninja contributors moved on.) And for the record, I think he'll eventually return to Ninja but that's another story. Fortunately, this community is still full of incredible contributors in both Ninja, and other aspects of trading as well. @monpere , while frustrating to get information from at times, has shared very valuable information for the traders who read his approach. Consistently, he advocates a rules based approach, where entries and exits are objective and results are based on positive expectancy. Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with diversity. And... here is the key: there is more than one way to find success in this business. The great thing about this forum is that we can all read other peoples views / opinions / ideas in a non-confrontational way. Please keep posting. If you're actually trading, it's not about the process - it's about the profit. Yes, not a misprint. Feel good all you want about how good you executed your plan or how well you kept your journal today - but you either made money or you didn't. And if you're not making money, you'll soon be doing something else for a living. Keep the posts and the diversity coming.

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  #75 (permalink)
Site Administrator
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timefreedom View Post
And for the record, I think he'll eventually return to Ninja but that's another story.

Too late

https://futures.io/elite-automated-ninjatrader-trading/21595-my-return-ninjatrader.html

It's a work in progress...

Thanks for your support, as always.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

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  #76 (permalink)
Administrator: Retired Backtester
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pfranz View Post
I'd like to ask frequent traders (especially scalpers) how do they rate latency.
I mean, do you think latency makes a big difference in your returns?
Is it important to get a submission confirmation in 50ms rather than 250ms? And to receive quotes in 20ms rather than 100ms?
I think it should be taken into account when asking who makes more money, because if latency makes a difference for a scalper,(s)he could make more money than a slower trader having a low latency,but could end up doing worse than a slower trader if latency is high.

From what my VPS customers are saying, it helps, the fills and slippage are better with a low latency connection (<5ms).
Hard to say "how much" better, and still far away from HFT, but this is the comment I had most of the time.

Success requires no deodorant! (Sun Tzu)
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  #77 (permalink)
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Oh my, didn't expect the drama unfolding in this way. I hoped to stay out of this thread but I have to preface that I'm siding with @monpere on this one; I wrote the entire https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/23848-r-r-misleading-2-example-strategies.html thread to point out the flaws on djkiwi and Anagami's analyses using R:R without any time scale but didn't want to name anyone.

I also believe I wrote this little post that is very relevant to this thread's topic:


Quoting 
Trading short-term allows you to place more bets. Provided your strategy comes with an intrinsic edge (let's denote this with some fixed value called the expected mean of returns), Bernoulli's theorem states that the larger the number of bets, the closer the sample mean of returns approaches the expected mean. As such, you should experience a smaller deviation of the sample mean from the expected value for every fixed unit interval of time while your strategy is run. In more concrete wording, the more the number of bets, the smaller the deviation of your realized daily returns from the expected mean of daily returns that you should experience, and hence higher Sharpe ratio. It can be estimated that the maximum compounded growth rate attainable with your strategy varies with the square of your Sharpe ratio, an order of magnitude faster than losses from transaction costs. By this reasoning, quite the contrary, there is actually an absolute advantage in shorter time frames.

which must not come without this fantastic and important follow-up (https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/19870-why-7-difference-between-failure-success-trading-7.html#post239917):


Fat Tails View Post
Transaction costs do matter. If you trade ever smaller timeframes, transaction costs will outgrow the intrinsic edge, and you strategy will be making losses.

ThMessage:
at said from your statement above and the knowledge that transaction costs will overcome the edge for very small timeframes, you may conclude that there is an OPTIMUM timeframe to trade.

Under optimum I understand the timeframe that allows you to attain the maximum compounded growth rate.


I have tried to give an example for the optimum frequency / targets in the thread "Risk of Ruin". You will probably like these posts:

https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/15602-risk-ruin-7.html#post210597
https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/15602-risk-ruin-8.html#post210800
https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/15602-risk-ruin-8.html#post210847

The key is understanding that the variance of return matters, and that you more easily achieve a better variance with a high win rate than with a high R-Multiple.

I don't think there is any statistical advantage of longer-term trading over scalping. However, I admit there is an operational basis and one historical basis. This is agreed upon by pretty respectable traders from both sides, technical and fundamental. e.g. Those who have read those who have read Kirkpatrick's book (Technical Analysis: The Complete Resource for Financial Market Technicians (2nd Edition): Charles D. Kirkpatrick II,Julie R. Dahlquist: 9780137059447: Amazon.com: Books) would know that he elaborates that trading longer-term trends has a lack of popularity because many traders are poorly equipped to estimate slippages or trade at low commissions, and merely has a historical basis (and not a statistical one) in technical analysis, where the tools fail typically in "whipsaws" in smaller frequencies (Chapter 13~14). Those who have read Chan's book (Quantitative Trading: How to Build Your Own Algorithmic Trading Business (Wiley Trading): Ernie Chan: 9780470284889: Amazon.com: Books) would also know that he believes any edge should be brought to a higher frequency insofar as possible.

To put it short, if you know the right set of statistical techniques, you should scalp the living daylights out of the market. Really.

I noticed that everyone focuses on the disadvantages of high slippages relative to profit margins, and those of high commissions. However, what very few (none?) of you have pointed out is that the analysis for scalping is very clean. For example, to have a reasonable set of data to carry out backtesting for a scalping system in futures, you need not look beyond one contract of a specific expiration month. This is ridiculously awesome! You can't do this for a long-term trading setup. So you have to modify your data using either the nearest contract, perpetual contract or continuous contract adjustment. But you must understand that the people who invented these methods weren't statisticians. Some of these techniques are older than electronic trading. You can easily create numerical effects which don't exist in the original data. I'll argue that the difference introduced with each method is greater than the difference between whether you are using IB or Nanex data.

Another thing, you can know if your scalping setup fails - really fast. One of the things I've realized is that trend traders are slow to abandon their strategies when they fail. Scalpers adapt much faster. There's a different kind of "slippage" when you trade larger moves: it's the amount of loss it takes for you to realize that your strategy doesn't work anymore. It's hard to quantify yet it is probably as important as execution slippage. But kudos to you if you have found some awesome strategy which hasn't failed for the past decade or something.

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  #78 (permalink)
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Rad4633's Avatar
 
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1)Guys need your help, years back there was a challenge where traders would sign up and trade in Sim to see who made the most and a cash prize was rewarded to the winner. Does anyone know if their still doing it or know of any like this because this site it showed info who was leader per week, their trades taken, so one could see if scalper or points trader was better.

2) I dont know anything about Combine bc I have no interest in it, but if they make public the records of trades, I ll take a look.Do they?meaning a scoreboard of everyone

3)I like score boards better than spreadsheets for reasons others have listed, spreadsheets are perfect for there intensive purposes-to make projections or to input true data on. But from what we've said to date in this thread no true data is available and we have to remember 97% are wrong I know its 95 but IMO another 2% B/e or make little so I use 97%

I know most of you are saying why does this guy want this info.... Its very simple, for the Data. Then one would say what will you do with the data. Compile it and analyze winning net combinations. Then if enough data is available you can adapt your style to it "build a better mouse trap" One might ask why dont you do it yourself and see. Main reason is it takes time to build core data, why do you think companies buy out other companies for the foundation and structure, its way cheaper than building it from the ground up. There are exceptions as with anything

Thx in Advance for all replies
R

@monpere shrug it off text is text, Ive had recent threads where I was called lunatic for my way of thinking, told to stop trading, told I didnt know why I entered trades where I did and for me to understand trading, and so on I dont care all I want is the $$$$$$$$.I like futures.io (formerly BMT) (@Big Mike)and show respect to everyone, my Thanks shows this I will even go past the button and make direct comment thanking someone(its a southern thing). I enjoy learning thats what this all about. Each has their way of learning, this is mine(I call it Rad's networking 101)

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  #79 (permalink)
Live Your Bliss
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monpere View Post
It's confounding when spreadsheets dictate the profitability of traders. How dare you be profitable, the spreadsheet say you cannot. If you can achieve a 60% win ratio, you must be a liar. If demi-god @Anagami says no scalper can reach 30% win ratio, it must be the gospel.

Not sure why some people insist on putting words in my mouth and turning my objective and rational research into a neurotic argument. Could it be that they are so insecure with themselves and their trading?

I am sorry I shared my research with the futures.io (formerly BMT) community. Won't do that again. All the best.

"...the degree to which you think you know, assume you know, or in any way need to know what is going to happen next, is equal to the degree to which you will fail as a trader." - Mark Douglas
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  #80 (permalink)
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Anagami View Post
Not sure why some people insist on putting words in my mouth and turning my objective and rational research into a neurotic argument. Could it be that they are so insecure with themselves and their trading?

I am sorry I shared my research with the futures.io (formerly BMT) community. Won't do that again. All the best.

I know about your thread, and I have read parts of it. You and Fat Tails went back and forth with others, it has tons of data in it. I will agree monpere comment was unnecessary, by no means should anyone stop posting bc of any said individuals, we all have opinions and different views I enjoy hearing them all whether I agree or disagree is irrelevant.

Best wishes,
R

Oh and I like your avatar

I ll tell you a quick story years back I was going to Tornoto to buy a high end drag racecar, had alot of cash on hand for the purchase, you know us Americans we need protection, so guess what happened crossing the border, took me 5 hours to get tow vehicle out of impound,and my friend out of jail not counting the fines......learned the hard way---HANDGUNS not allowed in Canada, but I did enjoy walking around seeing Niagara Falls while he was being processed


Last edited by Rad4633; October 21st, 2012 at 07:14 PM.
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