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W.D. Gann, Murrey Math and White Elefants
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W.D. Gann, Murrey Math and White Elefants

  #21 (permalink)
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Lornz View Post
Oh, I almost forgot...

SACRED SCIENCE INSTITUTE: Where Ancient Wisdom & Future Science Meet...

Gann seems like a schoolboy compared to these guys:

Consciousness enters the arenas of manifestation, down-stepping through the frequency spectra of a time matrix, in accordance with precise mathematical-geometrical templates. The accretion of (non-manifest) electromagnetic units of identity-awareness to form quarks, atoms and gross matter is ordered. So too are the processes by which the resultant spherical energy domains evolve through the spiralling cycles of time. Encoded and reproduced within each fractal iteration, each holographic tessera, are to be found the patterns and laws of the whole. Herein lies the key to the financial markets.

Long before our presently recorded history, our world bore host to civilizations who understood the science of manifestation templates, the scalar wave grids existing beyond the veil. For reasons far beyond the scope of this book, the depiction inherited by the Kabbalists does, in fact, mirror certain alignments within our reality field. But it is a distortion of the geometry of primordial consciousness.

A financial market is a spherical energy field of consciousness. Like all phenomena, its structure derives from the unseen manifestation templates. And the nodal transmission lines, the “distortive boundaries”, have a direct bearing upon price-time behaviour.

The spherical nodes may be thought of as dimensional control centres. They regulate the eternal fission-fusion cycles through the first phase of which ante-matter units of conscious sound vibration split apart to form interconnected units of bi-polar light radiation. These particles and anti-particles are projected at a 90 degree angle of separation. In simple terms, the variances between the fission-fusion cycle rates and angular rotations of particle spin allow multiple reality fields of conscious energy to co-exist (invisible to each other) within the same apparent space. And it is through the nodal connection lines that the flows of consciousness, the mathematical-geometrical sequencing of dimensionalised frequency bands (indeed, the properties of time) are regulated.

The proposition that our Universe is a holographic construct implies that correspondences must exist between all phenomena.

Paradoxically, it is the trader’s natural (but usually subconscious) resonance with the group consciousness of a market which often accounts for lapses of discipline and errors of judgement. Major pivots tend to occur in a market when time counts and price levels (or price movements) are harmonically related to the shared encryptional characteristics of the individuals who participate in it. The greater the number of individuals entering or exiting a market at any given point, the more strongly the individual trader will be pulled into resonant alignment with their actions.

If photons of an appropriate wavelength strike the atom, their energetic quantum (measure in electron volts, eV) will be absorbed, causing the electrons to “jump” into higher energy state orbitals. In much the same way, as buyers enter a market they raise its energy state and thus “excite” prices into higher orbital shells of harmonic equilibrium. Through sympathetic resonance, prices will be drawn towards these points of equilibrium where they can, once again, rest in harmony with the fundamental tone of the market.

It is said that 90% of traders lose their money in the markets. Since a market can only move up or down, one would expect even pure guesswork to yield an approximate 50:50 ratio of winning to losing trades. In truth, with the advantages of modern computer analysis, the winning trades should far exceed the losing ones. The fact that this does not occur indicates, quite plainly, that the markets must operate in such a way as to negate the individual trader’s probability of success.

When their stops are hit, the traders, though aggrieved, take comfort in the fact that their analysis proved to be correct – the market did indeed form a pivot and change trend as predicted. They conclude that they were simply unlucky on this occasion, and thus repeat the process in subsequent trades. But they find, to their chagrin, that the same thing happens again and again. How many times have you entered trades based on thorough and precise analysis (which later proved to be correct) only to find that the market had somehow managed to extend its current trend by exactly the amount necessary to hit your stop? This is not an accident.

When traders use the same technical indicators as each other, they will tend to draw similar conclusions as to the trend of the market and formulate similar trading strategies based upon the apparent levels of support and resistance. Paradoxically, of course, the greater the degree of consensus, the less reliable the technical indicators will prove to be.

Cycles evolve and recalibrate in harmony with a market’s encryption. This principle has long been recognised by the advanced practitioners of astrological science. In their careful study of the solar return chart and the rotational progressions of the natal chart, they seek to accommodate an ancient conception of the solar orbit as an escapement through which the hidden mainspring of fate is steadily released. In truth, the astrologers are compensating for the gradual rotation of the spherical holographic domain within which the conscious identity is stationed. More specifically, they are compensating for the accretion of dimensional frequency and resultant shifts in angular rotation of particle spin though which consciousness aligns with the accelerating time pulse rhythms of successive probability vectors.

This phenomenon can be ascribed to the holographic properties of our reality field. There awaits, behind the façade of individuation, a world of immanent correspondence. And it is the task of the analyst to penetrate the doctrinal (and bio-energetic) frequency barriers by which this world is obscured from the masses. In effect, it is the task of the analyst to identify and harness the fractal replications of a supervenient order.

But markets are dynamic. They rotate within the nested holographic domains of the unified field. And, as they do so, their angular relationship to the forces which shape them must adjust. In other words, the phase alignment between a market and any given cycle is transient in nature, constantly shifting.

The physical senses afford us little more than a vantage point from which to interpret the mathematical fragmentation of conscious energy. In advanced terms, they may be said to record the outward projection of a symbolic reality through the electromagnetic sequencing of the chemical DNA. In simplified terms, they may be said to create from inner focus the perception of external form. And it is by shifting this inner focus, by shifting what the Toltec shamans described as the “assemblage point”, that we may begin to transcend the chaos of the financial markets.

Not easy to condense such an amount of intellectual rubbish into a few words.

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  #22 (permalink)
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Silvester17 View Post
I would like to make some new friends too.

for me there's absolutely no difference between murrey math, fibonacci levels, trend lines, moving averages, etc. as long as there are enough people trading the same way and are able to move the market, then it really don't matter and price should react at those levels.

on the other hand, you can draw the nicest trend lines on a 5 min chart, but if nobody else is doing the same thing, well you might be out of luck.

conclusion a: if a whole bunch of big players would be using a flawed murrey math indicator, then of course this indicator would be very useful.

conclusion b: since I don't believe conclusion a is very likely to happen, I'll stick with the old fashioned "time and sales", where you don't have to depend on anybody else.


I absolutely agree with your statement. Trading is built upon fads, exploitong those fads can lead to riches. The fads change in a similar way as species have evolved and changed on our planet. The carnivores need to adapt to the current population.

I would like to point out that the NinjaTrader Murrey Math indicator is a false transscript of a MetaTrader indicator. As it procudes completely different lines than any other Murrey Math indicator, it cannot be useful in the sense that you have described with conclusion (a).

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  #23 (permalink)
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@Fat Tails

It's really simple.... write a strategy based on these indicators and if back testing it produces a profit... that proves either that the indicators work.... or that back testing is bogus too... a bit of warning though... proclaiming that back testing is a sham will cause a bigger reaction than just kicking Gann and Murrey to the curb ....

Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point of the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of and especially not for any platform vendor with a questionable product and a pit bull lawyer. Nor should I be held responsible for feeble attempts at humor at your expense. This post is meant purely for entertainment and should not be confused with a real thought.

The NinjaTrader indicator cannot even be backtested, because it produces different lines on a 2 min, a 5min and a 10 min chart. The original MetaTrader indicator would at least produce the same lines on all types of charts, as it was based on daily ranges.

But then I do not feel that I have to prove that Murrey Math lines do not work. It is just a waste of time, and I will go on to something different. Noise traders are needed to feed the professional traders, and noise traders also want to be entertained and need some pictures on their charts.

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  #24 (permalink)
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I have this setup there look for trend and trend shift.
I see it all a question about probability, and there are many indicators there can help to give picture of oversold, overbought.

Alot of people use trendline, trendchannels with indicators to give some picture if line can hold. "ES 06-12 Daily Channels 25-5-2012.png" I have fib target outside channels around 1345 and 1267,5. something have to give before or later.

Fib is a nice tool with alot of strategies. I use fib my own way and have spend alot of time to se how it's works and give some nice probability.

I have look at Gann's tools. some of them give nice probability, but Ninja is not the platform to use Gann tools. Maybe next version.
So I have a big CAD program where I put picture in background and can make what ever I want of lines. Only problems is CAD program is not so good for big picture. :-(

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  #25 (permalink)
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I really enjoy...

the idea and the content of this thread. Much insight is provided here in a way that can be useful in understanding the cognitive approach of different people. I do not think that segregating my own ideas in an agree or disagree arrangement will be very productive here....mostly because of the limitations of this communication medium.

I have seen the term "indicator groupies" here in the forums and that is good for more than a chuckle.

I do keep my eyes open and at least take a cursory look at everything. Most items like the one in question here are dismissed rather quickly. However, I do think it more productive to apply glue to the stuff that might produce good fruit. Should I feel like I need to warn the others here, in general...not this specific thread, by spending time to debunk nonsense? Gann would certainly not be on the top of that list (for me)...granted the connection between Gann and the focus here is distant and loose.

That item posted with link referencing the binary vibration across all octaves is quite amusing...but I have seen guys make consistent money with those ideas....BUT when I examine that I find there is almost always a much much simpler explanation. That then begs the question, why cloak things in layers of mystery?

I try to find contact here with people whose ideas and experience can make me better. Fat Tails, you are almost certainly one of those guys. When I reached out by asking if the screen name was an indication of Mandelbrotian statistics, you never responded. It was clear in my mind anyway, but I couldn't figure out why that question would not be engaged, especially in light of why the current one is....so that remains a mystery.

Concerning indicators on a chart, those are just visual reference points of where others might respond based on recent past behavior. In my mind I'm trading against the emotions of other participants. The evolving methods have worked well for me for over 15 years. I don't spend much time trying to describe that for two reasons. p/l is justification enough and most will discard or not understand the description anyway.

Thanks for the dialogue, the posts here are all very interesting. DB

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Trading is continuously evolving, to me the question is not about finding the right system but rather understanding when the system and/or indicator is not working anymore(new trading techniques, new fulfilling prophecies, the indicator of the moment etc...), or even worst when the system has never worked . The cycle of these changes might vary from a few months to several years, while many traders do not even make it to the next cycle. One way to survive in this trading evolution is continously studying and exploring different solutions, even if we think we have the right system. We are lucky to have FT on the board, the greatest lesson is his hunt for the truth, as this job is made of many charlatans(I do not refer to the OP reference).
The reputation of FT can be trusted, if many young fellow traders will follow his advices they might save some money in their early trading, I had to learn the hard way but I soon became less enchanted and lost a bit of naiveness regarding trading.. Trading is getting more and more complicated, it's not just about knowledge but there is a technology gap which is out of reach for many retail traders, I am afraid that we will reach a point where even FT will be not enough and we'll be waiting for the new "Legendary Wizard".

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  #27 (permalink)
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Video about Gann angle. And he says it works.

Doing Gann Angles on currencies correctly (Updated) - YouTube

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  #28 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
The point is that I do not even consider certain approaches to trading as rationalist, but I simply would describe them as mumbo jumbo. A rationalist would be able to describe some feedback loops or potential price movements and then "predict" the market according to his model.

Also I would not compare Leibniz and Gann. Leibniz developed the binary numeral system, differential and integral calculus, he is even the father of the concept of self-similarity, which was later used by Mandelbrot to describe fractals. Not going to enumerate other things he did. Gann basically just developped a few obscure ideas.

I absolutely agree on the importance of empirical validation of any models. And if you look at the thread "Risk of Ruin" you will find that the model based on the properties of Bernoulli distributions is in the end subject of an empirical Monte Carlo test, which indeed gives a better simulation of drawdowns than any model.

Ok, you have a point. Leibniz was a universal genius, while Gann was a quack.

Maybe the best most useful thing to consider is the Kantian reconciliation of Rationalism and Empiricism: what we perceive is necessarily conditioned by the forms of our cognition. There's no way around it.

Our perception (of market, or anything else for that matter) is a function not just of empirical content, but also aprior cognitive schema through which the perception is formed and shaped (that's why it takes on those familiar forms that lead us to believe that we 'know' something).

We impose our cognitive forms on experience all the time. In fact, it's unavoidable, because one can't step outside of one's own subjectivity.

"...the degree to which you think you know, assume you know, or in any way need to know what is going to happen next, is equal to the degree to which you will fail as a trader." - Mark Douglas
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Anagami View Post
Ok, you have a point. Leibniz was a universal genius, while Gann was a quack.

Maybe the best most useful thing to consider is the Kantian reconciliation of Rationalism and Empiricism: what we perceive is necessarily conditioned by the forms of our cognition. There's no way around it.

Our perception (of market, or anything else for that matter) is a function not just of empirical content, but also aprior cognitive schema through which the perception is formed and shaped (that's why it takes on those familiar forms that lead us to believe that we 'know' something).

We impose our cognitive forms on experience all the time. In fact, it's unavoidable, because one can't step outside of one's own subjectivity.

I agree.

However, my main idea for this thread was to find out

(1) whether Murrey Math Lines can be used at all, or whether there is anybody trading successfully by trading off those lines

(2) whether the NinjaTrader Murrey Math indicator has anything to do with the Murrey Math concepts, and whether there is an explanation why it uses a range of 200 bars as opposed to the N-day range used by the original MetaTrader indicator.


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  #30 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
I agree.

However, my main idea for this thread was to find out

(1) whether Murrey Math Lines can be used at all, or whether there is anybody trading successfully by trading off those lines

(2) whether the NinjaTrader Murrey Math indicator has anything to do with the Murrey Math concepts, and whether there is an explanation why it uses a range of 200 bars as opposed to the N-day range used by the original MetaTrader indicator.


You can't blame a classically trained philosopher for steering the discussion into those channels.

As for #1 (the second half), there seem to be no takers.

"...the degree to which you think you know, assume you know, or in any way need to know what is going to happen next, is equal to the degree to which you will fail as a trader." - Mark Douglas
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