W.D. Gann, Murrey Math and White Elefants - Traders Hideout | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


W.D. Gann, Murrey Math and White Elefants
Updated: Views / Replies:14,821 / 41
Created: by Fat Tails Attachments:5

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 5  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

W.D. Gann, Murrey Math and White Elefants

  #11 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,332 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 4,579 given, 10,313 received

I would like to make some new friends too.

for me there's absolutely no difference between murrey math, fibonacci levels, trend lines, moving averages, etc. as long as there are enough people trading the same way and are able to move the market, then it really don't matter and price should react at those levels.

on the other hand, you can draw the nicest trend lines on a 5 min chart, but if nobody else is doing the same thing, well you might be out of luck.

conclusion a: if a whole bunch of big players would be using a flawed murry math indicator, then of course this indicator would be very useful.

conclusion b: since I don't believe conclusion a is very likely to happen, I'll stick with the old fashioned "time and sales", where you don't have to depend on anybody else.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Silvester17 for this post:
 
  #12 (permalink)
Elite Member
Quebec
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader wt Rancho Dinero's profiling tools
Broker/Data: Stage 5 trading/AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, YM
 
trendisyourfriend's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,697 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 3,041 given, 4,496 received

On a chart, where is opposing order flow more likely to occur?

Murray math line?
Fibonacci line?
VWAP band?
Market profile line (VAH, VAL, POC) ?
Pivot point and its multiples?
Previous Swing highs/Lows?
Iinitial Balance High/Mid/Low and one of its multiples?
Moving averages (20, 50, 100, 200)?

Did i miss one?

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to trendisyourfriend for this post:
 
  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chicago Illinois USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: duh hammer!
 
wldman's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,070 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 967 given, 2,626 received

Mike...



Big Mike View Post
I looked at Murrey Math right at the end of my indicator ignorance days. I did not know any better. Murrey Math actually was one of the indicators that helped me wake up and face reality

Mike

could you describe your reality please?

This is a really interesting question. In a subsequent post Fat Tails frames nicely the "why" of it and that is essential for me. I have house guests now but I will be interested in contributing and more so in learning from the perspectives shared here.


Last edited by wldman; May 27th, 2012 at 08:54 PM. Reason: add'l info
Reply With Quote
 
  #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Houston,Tx
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Favorite Futures: TF
 
ThatManFromTexas's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,302 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 1,208 given, 4,293 received


Anagami View Post
It's not a matter of the right indicator () or the right wave count ().

@Anagami

How can you criticize Waves on Memorial Day Weekend...

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
Reply With Quote
 
  #15 (permalink)
Live Your Bliss
Canary Islands, Spain
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: OA
Favorite Futures: What Moves
 
Anagami's Avatar
 
Posts: 701 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 474 given, 1,398 received


ThatManFromTexas View Post
@Anagami

How can you criticize Waves on Memorial Day Weekend...

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

That's disgusting, TMFT. How can you post such filth??

Actually, I have my own theories about waves (or curves, rather). They are nice, up to a point.


"...the degree to which you think you know, assume you know, or in any way need to know what is going to happen next, is equal to the degree to which you will fail as a trader." - Mark Douglas
Reply With Quote
 
  #16 (permalink)
Scarecrow
CA USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts
Broker/Data: DDT+land/Rithmic/IQ
Favorite Futures: S&P500,6E,YM
 
program's Avatar
 
Posts: 100 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 127 given, 63 received


Lornz View Post
In simple terms, the variances between the fission-fusion cycle rates and angular rotations of particle spin allow multiple reality fields of conscious energy to co-exist (invisible to each other) within the same apparent space.

lol... this was particularly incongruous. but i did enjoy the post

I have approximate answers, possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty of different things. But I'm not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things i don't know anything about.
Reply With Quote
 
  #17 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 46,240 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,352 given, 83,231 received


wldman View Post
could you describe your reality please?

This is a really interesting question. In a subsequent post Fat Tails frames nicely the "why" of it and that is essential for me. I have house guests now but I will be interested in contributing and more so in learning from the perspectives shared here.

I used to be one of the people who thought price reacted at a level because that is what it looked like on my chart. I am referring to fibs, moving averages, murrey math lines, and everything else.

Then I finally woke up and realized that is not at all the case. It was just my perception, which was totally false.

You can see me trying to convince others of this in the Random Line Theory thread. Unfortunately, most people still don't get it.

I also agree with trendisyourfriend's last post. Again my overall philosophy is to look for the simplest explanation, and not the most complex. A MML line is most certainly not a reasonable simple explanation.

If you use an indicator as an area of interest, fine. But when you use an indicator and assign it properties it does not posses, that is when you get in trouble. For example, if you want to say that 61.8% is an area where price may reverse, fine. But it may reverse at 48%, 52%, 54%, 56%, 58%, 60%, 64%, 66%, 68%, 70% or anywhere or nowhere in-between. So if you become convinced that 61.8% or another fib number has magic predictive properties, that is where the problem starts.

Same is true for any other indicator or even chart patterns.

As for what I use these days, I have three charts per market. 1 day, 240m, 60m. The 1 day chart is volume profile, which consists of VPOC, VAH, VAL and a Composite Profile. It gives me three "lines" per day, and extends them to the right until they are hit. On the 240m and 60m chart, I have one indicator that marks Swing High/Low's and extends them until they get hit. The only other thing I do is manually draw trendlines on those charts.

One could certainly make an argument as to why volume profile is any different than murrey math lines. And I will leave you to that to decide on your own.

I think the biggest thing for me is simply understanding how your mind works when it comes to perception. Once you understand that what you see is not a fact, but just a perception, it can help you. That was the goal of the Random Line Theory thread.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

Reply With Quote
The following 12 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
  #18 (permalink)
Elite Member
London
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: .
Favorite Futures: .
 
Posts: 162 since Apr 2011
Thanks: 46 given, 107 received


trendisyourfriend View Post
On a chart, where is opposing order flow more likely to occur?

Murray math line?
Fibonacci line?
VWAP band?
Market profile line (VAH, VAL, POC) ?
Pivot point and its multiples?
Previous Swing highs/Lows?
Iinitial Balance High/Mid/Low and one of its multiples?
Moving averages (20, 50, 100, 200)?

Did i miss one?

+ .00 Levels

Reply With Quote
 
  #19 (permalink)
Elite Member
Houston,Tx
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Favorite Futures: TF
 
ThatManFromTexas's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,302 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 1,208 given, 4,293 received


Fat Tails View Post
Thank you for supporting an open discussion of the subject.


Actually I am just bringing up the subject, because somebody has asked me to code a modified version of the Murrey Math Lines.

I delved into the subject and came to the conclusion that the project is not feasible, or at least that it does not make sense.

I would be happy if somebody proved the contrary, but to find out, I had to create this thread.

@Fat Tails

It's really simple.... write a strategy based on these indicators and if back testing it produces a profit... that proves either that the indicators work.... or that back testing is bogus too... a bit of warning though... proclaiming that back testing is a sham will cause a bigger reaction than just kicking Gann and Murrey to the curb ....

Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point of the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of and especially not for any platform vendor with a questionable product and a pit bull lawyer. Nor should I be held responsible for feeble attempts at humor at your expense. This post is meant purely for entertainment and should not be confused with a real thought.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
Reply With Quote
 
  #20 (permalink)
Elite Member
Berlin, Europe
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: Keyboard
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,653 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 4,226 given, 25,601 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



Anagami View Post
Thanks for starting this thread, Harry.

What I find fascinating is that trading schools of thought have parallels in modern philosophy.

In the 17th and 18th century, two main philosophical schools emerged:

There were rationalists, represented by Descartes, Spinoza, and Liebniz, who believed that reason (or rational structure) was the reliable guide to reality and knowledge.

In opposition, there were empiricists, represented by Hume and Locke, who believed that experience was the most reliable guide to reality and knowledge.

Fast forward to trading today.

There are two main schools of thoughts:

1) "Rationalists" - traders who believe there's a 'secret' order to the markets that can be used to trade successfully. Gann (and his descendants) fall firmly into this category.

2) "Empiricists" - traders who believe that 'the market will go where it will go', and that analyzing those specific empirical behaviors is the way to trade successfully.

I feel that all trading approaches generally fall into one of those camps.

I never understood #1. If there is a 'perfect' secret order in the markets, I doubt that some Joe Schmuck sitting at his computer will uncover it. That's not to say that there isn't one... but it is likely to be of an infinite higher order than our thinking allows us to grasp intellectually. It's not a matter of the right indicator () or the right wave count ().

(Analogously, you have some of the brightest minds on the planet hitting a wall trying to reconcile the quantum theory and the general theory of relativity. They are finding that the apparent simplicity of certain context-dependent conditions breaks down when trying to paint the whole picture.)

The point is that I do not even consider certain approaches to trading as rationalist, but I simply would describe them as mumbo jumbo. A rationalist would be able to describe some feedback loops or potential price movements and then "predict" the market according to his model.

Also I would not compare Leibniz and Gann. Leibniz developed the binary numeral system, differential and integral calculus, he is even the father of the concept of self-similarity, which was later used by Mandelbrot to describe fractals. Not going to enumerate other things he did. Gann basically just developped a few obscure ideas.

I absolutely agree on the importance of empirical validation of any models. And if you look at the thread "Risk of Ruin" you will find that the model based on the properties of Bernoulli distributions is in the end subject of an empirical Monte Carlo test, which indeed gives a better simulation of drawdowns than any model.

Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to Fat Tails for this post:

Reply



futures io > > > W.D. Gann, Murrey Math and White Elefants

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Murrey Math Big Mike Traders Hideout 227 December 12th, 2017 07:05 PM
Murrey Math automated strategy for NinjaTrader Big Mike Elite Automated NinjaTrader Trading 22 October 2nd, 2012 10:18 AM
Murrey Math in 60 min sam028 NinjaTrader 7 September 18th, 2012 02:41 PM
Murrey Math NT7 ZIP wireford NinjaTrader 5 July 9th, 2011 09:15 AM
MURREY MATH LINES for NINJA 7 youarecoverednow NinjaTrader 9 June 20th, 2011 02:56 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:15 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-14 in 0.39 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.160.245.121