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Millions Made, now what?
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Millions Made, now what?

  #51 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Toronto Ontario
 
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artemiso View Post
@Jack Larkin

This is a good post. It's my hope that more people have meaningful goals like you and wish you the best of luck.

Only thing I'd correct is that a huge fraction of the investment community paints the target wrongly when it comes to this goal ("no active management plus little chance of principal loss"). If you reconsider the principal loss part of the equation, you can do a lot of magic.

Thanks for the well wishes.

My comment on the investment type for when I transition info a semi-retired state is open to change based on capital available at the time, interest rate environment at the time, and the big one would be inflation expectations. So it's all open to adjustment by the time I get closer to reaching my end goal.

Generally speaking though, the idea would be that my time is not tied up managing or dealing with that end of things, so I can put that time/effort into other things (as I mentioned in answer 'a').. and combined with that, not be open to the possibility that I fall below my goal after having met it, as I'd have taken on responsibilities and obligations that wouldn't fair well if I stepped down from them to attend to my own personal finances. I mean, if conditions were right, I'd even consider longer term government bonds and annuities since they'd require nearly no time devoted to position management once in place (I stress the 'if conditions were right' part.)

I don't want to get off topic, but there's a reason why some old money stays rich and keeps passing their wealth to the next generation; strict capital preservation with enough principal to weather economic storms AND be able to invest in select higher-yield businesses (direct investment, complex investment, etc..) without the chance of loss affecting their standard of living.

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  #52 (permalink)
Elite Member
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another good thread to <bump> . hny

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  #53 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
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Big Mike View Post
a) Do you have a set goal in mind for when you will "retire from trading", thereby having secured your funds for living and may continue to only trade as a hobby, but not for income?

b) If you have a substantial amount of money already accumulated towards this goal, or if you have surpassed the amount of money needed to safely retire, what is your reason for continuing to trade for income instead of treating it like a hobby?

c) Is there a difference between making your own money (starting with zero), and inheriting money or "family money" when it comes to goals and these decisions?

d) Why is it some people never seem to "have enough"?

Since I am new to this board I try to answer those questions now.

I have a goal but never had it to retire from trading. My goal is to accumulate enough amount of money to be trading safely for a living. I still have a full time job, but my goal is to become a full time trader. I assume that with 500k I can trade safely enough to accumulate 100k annually (20% gain) and use that money as my salary. I planned to use that gain in the following year to avoid stress from trading, for example, let's assume I had the money at the end of 2014 and this year (2015) I will be trading. At the end of 2015 I would take proceeds and use them during 2016 as a regular salary paying myself around $6,000 monthly (assuming that 20% out of the 100k would be taxes, so real cash to pay will be only $80k). From that money I would do everything the exact same way as I do with my regular 9-5 salary - save for "retirement" in dividend paying stocks, and pay all the bills. During 2016 I would then trade for the next year 2017, etc. Once my stream of income reaches 100k annually I would stop trading for a living and start trading for fun or hobby.

There is a difference between inheritance or windfall and starting from scratch. I thought about it many times. It would solve a lot of my problems, issues and speed up my dreams on early retirement. But I was also thinking whether I would want any windfall or not as I really like this phase of building my own wealth. If it ever happens and I get a big chunk of cash, I would keep my plans as they are. I would just invest the windfall into dividend paying stocks and continue trading for fun with the same amount I have had at the time the windfall arrived. I am also curious if I could reach my dream trading or I have to work until I die. Thus I wouldn't use inheritance or windfall for trading at all unless it is smaller than my target amount. In that case I would use it to jump up my goal.

I do not know the answer to the question of being satisfied with some amount instead of complaining about not having enough. I know that with higher income and higher living standard we create for ourselves we also create higher liabilities and in many occasions we still feel as we do not have enough. With bigger house the bills are bigger, taxes are bigger, etc. It can be tricky and that's why many lotto winners become poor quite soon after their big payday. It is quite easy to make money, but a lot more difficult to keep them or multiply them.

I wish all traders here a lot of success in 2015

Martin

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  #54 (permalink)
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  #55 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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tigertrader View Post
I'm 59 years old and have been trading for a living for 40 years; and I hope the good Lord gives me the opportunity to trade for another forty. My mom turns 98 this coming September, so I don't think its an unreasonable request. I tried "retiring" when I left the floor and "cashed out", via the CBOT IPO, about 5-6 years ago, but it didn't quite mesh with my "Type A" personality. I believe the traits that motivate and drive successful people are the very same traits that keep them from retiring. Besides, making lots of money, just never seems to get old.

My father was the hardest working man I ever met, and after he retired, he was lost, and then he was gone. Trading gives me purpose beyond my family. It keeps me vital, in an area of my life I hope never declines. I can do it from anywhere, at any time, and I can remove myself from it, at anytime I choose. I've never worked a day in my life, because I love what I'm doing. Being able to support yourself via trading is a tremendous gift, and privilege that few people ever get to enjoy.

Why would I want to quit, that?

BTW: Stay trading, my friends.

Hi Tiger,
The more I read your posts the more I fing myself relating. I'm 57, spent most of my working life in business/trading, it's not about the money but rather the challenge. The worst period was when I retired from business and worked as a senior manager, the salary was triple most professionals, I hated every minute of it. It's been great the last few years, back trading full time, no amount of money compensates you for not being who you really are. Cheers John

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  #56 (permalink)
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redratsal View Post
The old man who goes to work a few days a week has a risk free motivation, either he will not or will be paid but he will certainly not lose money, when you've made your target you want to keep your capital safe, try to increase it but certaintly not joepardize it.

I guess I have a hard time with the word hobby: an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation.

To be honest I don't expect to lose otherwise I would have kept my construction company. So I find it hard to visualize a scenario where I would be risking it all in retirement, reduced size and only the best trades sounds like absolute bliss.lol These days it is just a numbers game, I have to get the trades on no matter what, there is no money to be made standing on the sidelines waiting for that great trade, sometimes I think it's like the fish that got away, urban myth.lol This is how I produce my nut so I force myself into the trades as long as they have the bare minimum probability of success that I require, although I do scale my trades, this helps keep control of the inevitable drawdowns.
Cheers John

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  #57 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Johno1 View Post
These days it is just a numbers game, I have to get the trades on no matter what, there is no money to be made standing on the sidelines waiting for that great trade, sometimes I think it's like the fish that got away, urban myth.lol This is how I produce my nut so I force myself into the trades as long as they have the bare minimum probability of success that I require, although I do scale my trades, this helps keep control of the inevitable drawdowns.
Cheers John

Very true that this is a numbers game.
But:
Money management is the key!
And knowing the market: just get in when your setup is there.
It is better to gain good on a few days than to let your gains
flowing back when trades are made only to have traded.

GFIs1

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  #58 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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GFIs1 View Post
Very true that this is a numbers game.
But:
Money management is the key!
And knowing the market: just get in when your setup is there.
It is better to gain good on a few days than to let your gains
flowing back when trades are made only to have traded.

GFIs1

That's why I made the reference to "the bare minimum level of probability that I require" I never put trades on that don't meet this criteria and only continue to load up if the probabilities improve. Totally agree with the importance of money management hence the scaling.
Cheers John

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  #59 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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If you love what you do you will never work a day in your life.

Trading is that for me. Love doing it.

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  #60 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I think it is interesting I am the one defending maintaining trading as a hobby after your 'retirement'. I say this because my original post talked about people never having enough, and risk was a big factor. When I see people who are older than me by quite a bit and are making large amounts of money, yet are living in a lifestyle so expensive that they have very little left to show for it, I do not understand this.

But what I was talking about is living comfortably but not extravagantly, and maintaining trading as a hobby. Hobbies can be expensive. For instance, if golf is your hobby you might pay thousands per month to be a member of your local country club.

To me, I see myself trading purely for fun at some point. Right now trading can be fun, but it can also very very stressful. I look forward to being able to get past the stress one day, by not needing to trade for money. I've been doing it long enough so that I never worry about paying bills, but like @tigertrader said, you will always be uncomfortable until you have enough financial freedom to not care about money any longer.

Mike

I don't think that once you reach a certain level of success that you would just pack it in and quit trading... It becomes part of you... you would have to replace that something with something else as or more interesting.

In my case I retired at 54... I did not have enough money to sock it away in some kind of fund or annuity and live out the rest of my life. I had no pensions at the time... no company pension but I gave up my working life in the normal sense once I believed that I could support myself in my normal lifestyle. If I failed back then {shrug} I would have went back to work again... but I never failed.

On thing though, and this would be sort of "retirement" from trading. If I were a daytrader (which I never was though) I would be considering the reduction of stress of being in front of a computer constantly during the trading day. I would be learning to invest in longer term investments and trades. That would be a retirement for me.... earning the same amount of money with less stress.

Most younger people have no clue as to the amount of money they need to reachl in order to retire and live off the interest for the rest of their life.... So I say that while it may be considered work, trading will always be a part of any trader worth his/her salt... I have known several traders over the years... some who have been quite successful doing what they do... never heard of any of them saying they were looking forward to the day when they would stop trading... but then they were not daytrading, options or future/commodity trading... They were in long term stocks, stable and usually paying good dividends.

This could be considered a hobby at this point... nothing wrong with that.

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