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Millions Made, now what?
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Millions Made, now what?

  #41 (permalink)
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Back to back ...

cruises with a week somewhere in between would be suitable. NO laptop, No phone...bring an extra pair of shorts and a toothbrush. Anyone with a place in panama, belize or other cruise destination with a place to rent to Mike please chime in.

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  #42 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I think it is interesting I am the one defending maintaining trading as a hobby after your 'retirement'. I say this because my original post talked about people never having enough, and risk was a big factor. When I see people who are older than me by quite a bit and are making large amounts of money, yet are living in a lifestyle so expensive that they have very little left to show for it, I do not understand this.

But what I was talking about is living comfortably but not extravagantly, and maintaining trading as a hobby. Hobbies can be expensive. For instance, if golf is your hobby you might pay thousands per month to be a member of your local country club.

To me, I see myself trading purely for fun at some point. Right now trading can be fun, but it can also very very stressful. I look forward to being able to get past the stress one day, by not needing to trade for money. I've been doing it long enough so that I never worry about paying bills, but like @tigertrader said, you will always be uncomfortable until you have enough financial freedom to not care about money any longer.

Mike


What is the formula of "enough financial freedom" over time (t), you can have a very parsimonious life and still erode your capital because external factors that you did not consider or could not plan over time will be playing against you. We all agree that trading should not be an obsession over money, still it is linked to it and if you "do not need to trade for money" there are better hobbies unless trading is the only one. Actually trading is a mandatory activity or job to pay your bills, as soon as you will have enough money to stop thinking about it, I am sure there will be new obbligations, you can't leave without them.

There is a very famous and successful trader DM, he was so proud to have never taken a vacation for so many years until he got caught in the MF Global fraud. After that he finally made a vacation to Aruba and he enjoyed it so much that he missed not having it done earlier. I think he was one of those that seemed to never get enough about trading until he had this black swan. To "have made it" is an overestimated word, should be used strictly on the epitaph

My understanding of your situation is that you have been working too much for too long (extreme) and you are looking to a retirement at 40 (another extreme), I think there are alternative solutions in between.

My point is whether you have or not have made it and whether you trade as a hobby or as a job enjoy life and what makes you happy about it, but do it now don't wait.


Last edited by redratsal; May 22nd, 2012 at 10:38 AM.
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  #43 (permalink)
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This is a great topic and one I've been thinking a lot about. Although I'm not at the point where it's an immediate concern, I can see myself having the option to retire in my early 40s (now in my mid-30s). The funny thing is although I like the idea of having the choice to do whatever I want (aka finanically independent as wldman puts it), the reality is that there is only so many days a week where one can go fishing/play golf.

Although I too thought at one point I would want to "retire" once I figured out trading, the truth is, every year I get better at trading, every time I control risk better, and every time I make money more effectively I want to trade more. Is that "riskier" than dialing things back? I don't believe that to be the case. I was definitely a far riskier trader when I traded less and was less proficient. As long as I have an edge my job is to execute it ruthlessly. When my edge is weak/diminished that is when I dial things back. When I'm "on" I do everything I can to push the outliers in my favor.

Lastly, I think the idea of retirement is old fashioned. We aren't factory or field workers who have broken bodies after 30-40 hard years in a mine. I see my dad starting and becoming a masterful entrepreneur at age 68 seeing more success and being far happier than he was working for the man. I see 80 year olds completing triathalons and making me look fat and sloppy (even though I'm far from it). Seeing what I've learned in the last 35 years I think I am capable of so much more in the next 35. When I'm 80 I plan on trading 1,000 cars while controlling my risk, squatting 500 pounds, starting new businesses for profit and fun, travelling how and where I want to, and helping orphans in SE Asia. If I need a break (now or at 75) I'll shut it all down for a month, do nothing on a tropical island, relax, get completely bored and then start it all up again even better.

Despite the lies the popular media tells us - there is no such thing as too rich, too sexy, too strong, too good looking, or too friendly. Most of us don't want to admit that because then we'd need to get our butt to work and be amazing.



P.S. - this is just how I choose to view things and is no slight on how other people want to enjoy their golden years.

P.P.S - I reserve the right to change my mind at 80 since I'll be a lot wiser than I am now. But for now this is a great viewpoint that charges me up in the morning to go out and kick butt.

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  #44 (permalink)
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What comes after making a few millions? Billions obviously.

Trading is far more interesting than anything else so why stop? It is always possible to find good use for money no matter how much. Even the president of the United States moves trillions and it's not enough.

Personally I think the first goal should be reaching financial security and than independence (support own and family's lifestyle with investments which require little time). Second should be helping others, charity and helping new start-ups as a venture capitalist. Third phase is political influence, changing world for the better. There is so much to be done......

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  #45 (permalink)
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A friend of mine turned 50 recently. Another friend commented that gee, I'd call you middle aged, but I don't know that many 100 year olds.

I'm of a similar age. It doesn't stop me from cranking up the 80's rock, and I sometimes wonder if when the time comes they'll be playing Billy Idol in the nursing home.

Meanwhile, I have no intention of going quietly into the night. Yet as hard as it may be to admit, even if I have ten sigma trading success, in the end it will all be a pile of paper. (or increasingly just electrons)

When and if I decide I'm done trading, I'll be doing the same thing I'm doing now. Enjoying life. Or at least trying to. Seems most people struggle with the future. I do too, despite realizing it is better to struggle my way into the present.

On a more practical note, the missus and I were down in Greece for a long weekend. Any readers looking for a great holiday might want to try here:

AFITOS_KALLITHEA

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Very relaxing.

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  #46 (permalink)
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Well said and great pic

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  #47 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Was talking to some people recently and wanted to ask this question. First, some info.

When I started trading full time I very much had goals in mind. The goals are basically identical today as they were then, which is to accumulate enough money to be able to retire early (age 40 was/is goal) and move to some place in the Caribbean.

I always planned to continue to trade, but not for income - rather, for enjoyment. I do not want to be dependent upon trading income any longer than I "need" to be, as we all know it is just as easy (easier?) to lose as it is to win.

I am doing very well on my path. And why I create this post is simple: For me, I have a clearly defined end in mind where I will take my proceeds and my trading results, and I will take a definitive action with them, thereby achieving my goal.

What I wonder about, is that it seems a lot of others do not operate this way. And I am curious as to why, and what they use for their own objectives and goals. There are a large number of people on futures.io (formerly BMT) who already have more money than even my "target" amount, yet they are still doing this every day.

So, the questions I pose to anyone who wants to try to answer:

a) Do you have a set goal in mind for when you will "retire from trading", thereby having secured your funds for living and may continue to only trade as a hobby, but not for income?

b) If you have a substantial amount of money already accumulated towards this goal, or if you have surpassed the amount of money needed to safely retire, what is your reason for continuing to trade for income instead of treating it like a hobby?

c) Is there a difference between making your own money (starting with zero), and inheriting money or "family money" when it comes to goals and these decisions?

d) Why is it some people never seem to "have enough"?

How is it that some people let it get away from them (from my view) where they are never satisfied? They are always wanting more. Bigger house, more cars, etc. I like nice things too, but I always have a goal in mind and I never stop working towards it.

I guess for me, I kind of view trading like some people view an 8 to 5 job. I have an end time in mind, and while I don't mind staying late some days, I am going it so that I can enjoy the weekend vacation. In other words, my "quitting time" is my goal of being able to retire from trading and have enough money to not work again and live my life the way I want.

I can't see working late or even working at all every day forever.

Mike



Great thread @Big Mike

I'm gonna answer this before I start to read all messages posted so far.

The thought of someone wanting to retire, at the age of 40 is something that I just can't understand.
I personally want to work till the day I die.
Maybe till 100 years old, that would be cool

First I look at trading as my main vehicle to achieve my first goal stage, which is, like you, to set myself and my family so we don't need to work again.

After having achieved this stage, I start my second goal, which is to be a business angel.
Helping people startup their company, their business. Helping in job creation.

After having achieved this stage, I start my third goal, or maybe this will be my second goal, will see... which is to create an institution or foundation, or whatever name one wants to call it, which will work with children and elderly people.
I get sick every time I see how orphan children and elderly people are treated in our countries nowadays.

I want to have the power (ie. the money) to give proper education, proper values to children from broken families and no families and give a proper home for the elderly so they can have a more human life during the remaining days they spend on this earth.

How would I live with myself, laying down on some beach, with my millions resting in some bank account knowing that I have the expertise to make more money and with it, helping others?
Just thinking that because of me, a kid from the streets might receive a degree from some University and with it be someone on his life... man... what a thrill that might be.


So... I will never "have enough".
I will never be satisfied.

If there's money to be made, if there's people to be aid, I want to have the power to help them.

Sure, it will be great to take a week vacation whenever I want, go to wherever I want, stay in the finest 5 star resort but that is just to release stress.
Live like that the entire time, till the day I die?

No thanks.
It's just not me.

And now let me read all messages in the thread since I'm curious to know the goals of the people here.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #48 (permalink)
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A very interesting thread so far with a lot of great stories and ideas.

While I am nowhere near the "millions made" mark, I thought I could share my thoughts on this if permitted.

Trading, for me, was never about retiring comfortably. It is instead a tool I can used to achieve my life goals. There are two things that I want to accomplish in my life and both require a substantial amount of financial resources. One is to be able to fund myself through medical school to become a surgeon and two is to bring financial aid to those who need it around the world. At the same time, the more involved I got into trading, the more I enjoyed it as a game. This is a game where your opponents are yourself, other retail traders, and the big institutions. As a competitive person, this really gives me a lot of enjoyment.

I'll probably never consider retiring if I ever achieve my goal of becoming a practicing surgeon. Will I ever stop trading? Probably not. There are a lot of things I want to do to better the world and the financial constraints are really high. Trading provides an opportunity to remove the "money" aspect that stops people from achieving their goals.

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  #49 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
a) Do you have a set goal in mind for when you will "retire from trading", thereby having secured your funds for living and may continue to only trade as a hobby, but not for income?

b) If you have a substantial amount of money already accumulated towards this goal, or if you have surpassed the amount of money needed to safely retire, what is your reason for continuing to trade for income instead of treating it like a hobby?

c) Is there a difference between making your own money (starting with zero), and inheriting money or "family money" when it comes to goals and these decisions?

d) Why is it some people never seem to "have enough"?

a) Yes.

It's not a huge number though, I just want enough to be able to cover a modest standard of living plus inflation on a near risk-free style of investment (this should read, no active management plus little chance of principal loss,) so I can semi-retire and spend my days volunteering in my community. Specifically, I want to run free classes and workshops for disadvantaged neighborhoods about personal finance, debt management, job attainment, etc..

I would still trade on the side, but not quite for enjoyment, more so to keep my mind sharp and always be adapting mentally.

I just view money as a tool to get what I want, not the end goal... this makes dealing with greedy new trainees (or newbs online) who just want the 'models and bottles' lifestyle of a trader, sorta annoying. They will often pry for any help they can get, and then later resent the experienced and profitable trader for making bank while they are still struggling to put a few winning days together.


b) Doesn't apply, not there yet. Working on it though, and making significant progress.

c) This question hits more of a social comment/criticism I have. I have zero problems with old money, even trust fund kids, so long as they recognized the gross and disproportionate advantage they were given over the majority of society and strive to make the best of it.

It's the old money that does nothing but waste space that bugs me, especially if they act superior to anyone else because of their wealth.

That being said, I have immense respect for "new" money who came from nothing and became successful. Even more so if they did so in a disruptive way (anything that breaks down old business models or takes business away from large monolithic companies via providing a better service.)

As for myself, it will mean more to me personally if I reach my goals without having it fall in my lap, but in the end, since I really want to be doing what I mentioned in answer a), I'd be happy to make positive impacts on people's lives regardless of how I got there.

d) There's a good book about this by John Bogle (of Vanguard fame) aptly called "Enough".

It doesn't bother me that greedy people exist. It only bothers me that they sometimes get bailed out for their greedy actions.

I would have no moral issues with taking advantage of other's greedy nature, like betting against them in game of probabilities, in fact, we do it all the time in trading. Greed and fear move the markets after all.


Last edited by Jack Larkin; April 28th, 2013 at 06:31 PM.
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  #50 (permalink)
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Jack Larkin View Post
a) Yes.

It's not a huge number though, I just want enough to be able to cover a modest standard of living plus inflation on a near risk-free style of investment (this should read, no active management plus little chance of principal loss,) so I can semi-retire and spend my days volunteering in my community. Specifically, I want to run free classes and workshops for disadvantaged neighborhoods about personal finance, debt management, job attainment, etc..

I would still trade on the side, but not quite for enjoyment, more so to keep my mind sharp and always be adapting mentally.

I just view money as a tool to get what I want, not the end goal... this makes dealing with greedy new trainees (or newbs online) who just want the 'models and bottles' lifestyle of a trader, sorta annoying. They will often pry for any help they can get, and then later resent the experienced and profitable trader for making bank while they are still struggling to put a few winning days together.

@Jack Larkin

This is a good post. It's my hope that more people have meaningful goals like you and wish you the best of luck.

Only thing I'd correct is that a huge fraction of the investment community paints the target wrongly when it comes to this goal ("no active management plus little chance of principal loss"). If you reconsider the principal loss part of the equation, you can do a lot of magic.

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