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Advice from traders with 5+years experience
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Advice from traders with 5+years experience

  #41 (permalink)
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DetroitMIUSA
 
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Did not initially take the time to understand chart analysis and market behavior.

As my live account was witness to. NOT doing the above is a sure recipe for disaster most assuredly!!!

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  #42 (permalink)
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Any newbie's lurking? Heed this advice and your tuition cost will be cheap.


Quoting 
But if you can find the determination to focus on learning, not making money, if I had it to do over that is where I would start.

My mentors told me this very thing. But I was like "no no I got this"!!! And then the market makes you humble. It's a very expensive lesson learned for some. Why do that to YOURSELF.

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  #43 (permalink)
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PowerBroker View Post
I will ask again. Who thought this up. If a trader wants to trade he is going to trade. Being under capitalized in the live market is a sentence for doom and a set up for faliure/blow out. However. Who set the magic number for a new or any trader for that matter to go in there live? What is it? 3k 5k 10k 100k?

The thing that gets traders in bigggggggg trouble is trading size on an account that is not capitalized for it. 10 cars on 20 large? Keep that up and you ARE doomed!


Agreed, and wanted to add my thoughts along that line.

The part many new traders don't think about is you have to stay at a size that is comfortable when you are on the wrong side of a trade. Get too big for yourself, whatever that amount may be, and you are no longer in control of the trade. And at that point, you are not "trading", you are being reckless.

I see one contract per $10k as a repeated "standard", but I would suggest that is if you have already proven to be good at trading. With leveraged instruments, you can make very respectable annual returns trading one contract per $100k. A constant average of only half a percent per day will make you richer than Bill Gates over a relatively short period of time. Yes, it will take years, and the other way holds the promise of months. But I see too many futures traders wanting to believe that the potential for massive exponential growth is the ONLY way to trade.

If a trader can forget the money on the upside, stay comfortable with what they risk to the downside, and have patience, their head will be in a much better place throughout the ride.

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  #44 (permalink)
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GaryD View Post
Agreed, and wanted to add my thoughts along that line.

The part many new traders don't think about is you have to stay at a size that is comfortable when you are on the wrong side of a trade. Get too big for yourself, whatever that amount may be, and you are no longer in control of the trade. And at that point, you are not "trading", you are being reckless.

I see one contract per $10k as a repeated "standard", but I would suggest that is if you have already proven to be good at trading. With leveraged instruments, you can make very respectable annual returns trading one contract per $100k. A constant average of only half a percent per day will make you richer than Bill Gates over a relatively short period of time. Yes, it will take years, and the other way holds the promise of months. But I see too many futures traders wanting to believe that the potential for massive exponential growth is the ONLY way to trade.

If a trader can forget the money on the upside, stay comfortable with what they risk to the downside, and have patience, their head will be in a much better place throughout the ride.

Agreed. Newbies fixate on the upside, professionals plan around the potential downside. It is about risk control. The question is not what's the fastest way I can turn my $5k account into $10k, the question should be how can I grow $5k into $10k without it going to -$5k first.


Last edited by monpere; March 17th, 2012 at 02:32 PM.
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  #45 (permalink)
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Quoting 
If a trader can forget the money on the upside, stay comfortable with what they risk to the downside, and have patience, their head will be in a much better place throughout the ride.

I am so much more at ease with what I am doing now that have got my head around concentrating on my method and RM & MM. Since I did that the money is taking care of itself pretty much.

I will say that do think that someone could make money on a 5k account trading 1 car only and building up however if you are only trading for extra income and not looking to become Warren or Bill then that goal is definatly doable. We'll see!!

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  #46 (permalink)
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I scale in and out as I pay homage to the fact that the markets can do anything at any time and are usually not the predictable and precise moving entities that I want them to be. There are just too many variables and the markets are always changing.

Rather than look at it as me not knowing what the hell I'm doing and just guessing, I try and use market unpredictability to my benefit, using more significant support and resistance areas as buy and sell areas. I treat trading as a retail business, generally buying -- scaling in -- after sell-offs to support areas with wide 'disaster' stops and selling -- scaling out -- into resistance areas during strength. Stock index futures or ETF's are inventory that I want to gradually accumulate and then eventually sell, never letting that long-side inventory get too large. Depending on your account size, it can be easier to do this with smaller chunks of an ETF rather than futures contracts where 1 NQ now = about 50K.

I like using the wider stops to give myself a chance to have a position come back into profitability after I am underwater on it for a while (I do hold overnight), essentially, 'getting lucky' eventually. When you trade all-in and then place -- the needed -- tighter stops, you end up taking a lot of 'smaller' losses that could have ended up being winners, had you scaled in with smaller positions and wider stops. But that's just me.

"The Future Ain't what it used to be"
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  #47 (permalink)
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Paige View Post
Kronie,

Forgive me, but this is a subject that I have serious problems with. I attempted to find an answer on another thread and all i got was stuff like "it's a personal preference thing".

No, I don't care how sucessful you (or anyone else) has been UP TO THIS POINT with this approach -- I want some type of logical argument that tells me that this is something more than admitting that you have absolutely no clue as to where price is headed and are hedging, hem-hawing and running scared.

Please look back at charts and previous trades -- and show me a point where it was the most profitable play to "scale-out"? If you can't find any, then it could not be have been the best play. Nor could it be in the future, could it?

At any given point in a trade, are there any two actions that may prove to be correct after all is said and done other than:

a. Hold/Add ?
b. Close/Reverse ?

"Scaling-out" seems like a cop-out (albeit a very commonly accepted/rampantly excused one) and an indication that the trader involved is quite indecisive -- assuming the trader (like most of us) is not trading enough size to risk moving the market considerably by closing-out in full.

I believe that "scaling-out" is "trading the money" --- as opposed to the market.

Peace,
Paige

OK,

points all taken,

I noticed your description as Aprentice,

at this stage, this advanced methos doesn't seem self explanatory, so do what makes you money, not what makes you feel good.

I have trained traders, that insist that application of some common or inarcane technical analysis method must occur in precise or near precise measure, just for confirmation to occur and things to be right with the world,

they preferred to lose on their trades,

I have trained traders to accept what they told me when I was on the floor of a major NY exchange, very simple lesson:

profits makes it right, all politics and morality aside!
profits makes it right (the position, the timing, the trade, the effort, the emotions, the fears, the greed, etc)
profits makes it right

now, if you have forgotton what sort of business and industry this is, and if this is not your primary secular means of production, or profit, or earnings, or wages, or survival, then perhaps whatever other "goal" that you are honoring, is suiting you just fine

don't expect confluence,
don't expect agreement
don't expect someone, like us, are going to care, or teach for free
don't expect, other than casual conversation the weight and ethos of the value of the knowledge you receive on these threads (after all, its free), and all this is worth exactly what you've paid for it.

all the best,

I do know what works, and so do the others, who have remained on these threads for quite some time

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  #48 (permalink)
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Nice Reply!

Kronie,

You actually have no idea what my background is. I could type anything (and so could anyone else) in the box where I typed "apprentice trader". How unbelievably petty (and gullable) of you to even mention this at all in your response! What in the world were you thinking? "Play the ball at all times -- never the man." Come on, you're better than this.

I aksed you to show me some chart patterns (or some other data) where your most profitable play was/woud have been to "scale-out"??

I did not get an answer? Not from you --- or anyone else who advocates or defends this methodology.

Philosophical waxing, talking in circles and spouting-off unsubstantiated credentials isn't an answer to me.

Peace,
Paige

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  #49 (permalink)
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Paige View Post
Kronie,

...
I aksed you to show me some chart patterns (or some other data) where your most profitable play was/woud have been to "scale-out"??

I did not get an answer? Not from you --- or anyone else who advocates or defends this methodology.

Philosophical waxing, talking in circles and spouting-off unsubstantiated credentials isn't an answer to me.
...

I have to agree. There is too much zen philosophy, good ole sayings, nursery rhymes, and sports analogies from posters when talking about trading. If we want to illustrate our points or perspectives, we need to do it with actual trading examples. I have learned a lot from posters on this thread, and have done my best to impart on others some of the things that I've learned, otherwise, forums like these would be a waste of time. If everyone makes the effort to share concrete trade ideas rather then lofty prose, we will all be better for it.

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  #50 (permalink)
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Paige View Post
Kronie,

You actually have no idea what my background is. I could type anything (and so could anyone else) in the box where I typed "apprentice trader". How unbelievably petty (and gullable) of you to even mention this at all in your response! What in the world were you thinking? "Play the ball at all times -- never the man." Come on, you're better than this.

I aksed you to show me some chart patterns (or some other data) where your most profitable play was/woud have been to "scale-out"??

I did not get an answer? Not from you --- or anyone else who advocates or defends this methodology.

Philosophical waxing, talking in circles and spouting-off unsubstantiated credentials isn't an answer to me.

Peace,
Paige


why would I?
why should I?,
because you asked?,
these are professional boards, used to entertain, in-between serious sessions of trading and making / losing money.

attitude?
well, its clear just how much attitude is coming out both ways, but arrogance, in demanding or challenging one to look at something and prove something to YOU.

last time I looked, my paycheck was signed by me and the CME,

hope you're better than an apprentice, or you update your own self selected moniker appropriately, so we all can have a better, more professional opinion, as you demand, of you, and you certainly deserve all the respect,

just like the rest of us

tread lightly....

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